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fishing for men


pg4Him

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3 hours ago, pg4Him said:

How do you evangelize to neighbors who grew up in church and now hate Christians? How do you overcome the stigma of worldly, career-driven, self-absorbed church members they grew up with? They look at me and say, sure you're a very nice person with an undeniable spiritual connection, but that is in spite of (not because of ) your Christianity.

People like this are a dime a dozen in my community.

I think that it is about showing people one of two things.  The first is that God has indeed changed our lives and we are different because of that.  The second is that God is indeed real and is reaching out to them.  Many testimonies I've heard over the years contain one or both of these elements.  They saw someone whose life was truly different, or they saw something miraculous that opened their eyes that God is indeed there and loves them.  People who've heard and rejected the gospel (often for years) have been affected by seeing real Christian lives and God doing real things.   That neighbor or family member or coworker whose life was consistently different over months and years often has a big impact on people.  Then, those times we pray for someone, or God does something out of the ordinary in someone's life will make them aware that He is indeed there.

I've of course heard some testimonies where the starting point was preaching or evangelism, but the starting point in many is what they've seen with their own eyes.

Edited by GandalfTheWise
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20 minutes ago, pg4Him said:

I feel compelled to speak in defense of my church-quitting brethern here. I have left a church or two in my day, and I have many Christian friends with no home church. 

People tend to leave a church for abstract reasons they can’t really articulate. It boils down to them feeling like they aren’t being fed and they don’t fit in. Most people will overlook a petty insult now and then as long as they’re emotionally invested in the church.

@Gary Lee I do not mean this about your church in particular. I am not accusing your church. This is just me speaking from personal experience after living in six different states.

Many times I found myself sitting in a church thinking “this pastor has low character, this teaching is remedial, I’ve heard softer music at a Metallica concert, and I can’t believe I’m driving across town for this.” Several times we had to leave churches because the music gave us splitting headaches every Sunday. Complain about it, and you’re a nitpicky critic. Rarely did anyone follow up when we quit. If they did follow up, what was I supposed to say? They loved their church. It worked for them. What good would come from me insulting their whole church?

Church quitters know that people will be angry no matter what they say. So you just try to escape the situation with as little damage as possible.

As I also searched for my church many years ago. No one has to defend or explain why they leave a church, pg4Him. Your OP tends to group churches in general with the problems you describe. Surely you would expect someone to defend their church who might take offense of your reference  "worldly, career-driven, self-absorbed church members". Believe it or not, there are Godly churches out there dealing with and struggling with so much worldly influence on the body,  and they will continue to be, if the exodus of the last times hasn't caught up. The thing about a 'body' of believers is they stick together, support each other, study together, worship together, cry together. Family. Our church would not be considered successful or growing by today's standards. It is over 135 yrs old, and an average attendance is about two hundred. But we have planted and built other churches and missions in other areas, closer to their neighborhood, with different shepherds, and a small church atmosphere. No megachurches for sure, that most people today seem to desire, and that  with good entertainment. I would hope more church members would become involved in their church to help, to make it better, to deal with the things you said above. Everybody in any group of believers are an important part, with an important job/gift, placed there by God. Yes. If you believe you need to leave a body of believers, make sure it's God's voice your listening to. The enemy is always at work. When you label a post like:

fishing for men where too many Christians have peed in the pond

you might expect some strong feedback. As an aside, most, not all, people I know, were saved in a church, and discipled in a church. (Pre internet,  E-church). As was most throughout the couple of thousand years since the first new testament believer got saved. I believe, if you petition God desperately, He will lead you to where He wants you to be part of. Ask. Then, try to keep it from being listed on a Christian forum as one to avoid..............:D
 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Gary Lee said:

The thing about a 'body' of believers is they stick together, support each other, study together, worship together, cry together. Family. 

My kingdom for this! I really do mean that. It’s what I’ve always wanted. 

200 people is a pretty big church as far as I’m concerned. Nothing to sneeze at! 

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I like trying the suggestion why Christianity’s original source would make the only sense as where to find its real definition.  What did the movement’s founder really say about being worldly?  I would pose to the dime-a-dozens, ‘Even if he was just a character, if they’re not keeping his sayings, then you’re saying in order to be his followers, it was his teaching to not keep them.’  People don’t even know how much sense they don’t make.  Tell them wordsearch “hypocrites” in a Bible, maybe.  lol   

People take comfort in conveniently missing the distinction of supposing Christians as hypocrites from all the professing Christians who are.  Most don’t think it’s important enough to care or they’re too lazy to do anything but go by just what people tell them to think.  So, it helps to keep in mind the roots of the problem, confusion and cluelessness, if trying to answer.  But we try because, if the Holy Spirit can get through to us, he can open eyes and save anyone whom he wants.  It’s up to him. 

In the end though, even those who at some point are deemed disqualified as being the minds of people, God is appeasing by giving them what they wished, who are not taken to be with their creator, as in the sense of “welcoming,”[1] as these did not receive the love of the truth.  An interesting caveat to this is the word the KJV translates “convenient” in Romans 1: 28 means fitting or proper, as in this context would relay, ‘I come down to being unfit, exiting the proper order.’  The order of reality is whatever the Most-High, Yhovah Elohiym’s will says it is, for he is love.  1 Corinthians 13 is the Bible’s way of saying love is the only thing that is eternal in nature.  (agapè- love.  The King James missed it a little on this one.)    

--Funny, the very first thing Yeshua said, when his disciples asked him the sign of his coming and the end of the age, had to do with your point: “Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Messiah, and they will deceive many.”  It’s a perfect way to put into words the depth of the deception, when you think about it.  For the longest time, I took this passage to mean many would come claiming to be him, but lately, I’ve realized that Jesus was referring to himself with the personal pronoun and simply meant that even many preaching he’s the Messiah would deceive many by their subsequent misportrayals of him. 

It’s the old bait and switch.  Some say the cleverest thing the devil ever did was convincing the world he doesn’t exist.  That actually might be a close second though to the wholesale installation of glorified used-car salesmen and con artists operating under the name of Christian ministry for the express purpose of making the said truth appear a certain way, misdirecting and repulsing the many.  Enemy agents.  Satan’s @$$-puppets.  Call them what you will.  Duped dupers.  And they’ve been very effective.  The world doesn’t look this way by accident, I suggest.  The most insidious and tentacled version of this ploy or psyop became institutionalized starting around 300AD with the retooling of the enemy’s universal church, essentially presenting pagan Luciferian sun-god worship under the guise of Christianity.  And again, almost nobody cares or even notices.  Or, at least the ones who did were genocided out of existence…  --Just a coincidence, right?  I suspect the members among us and the people who hate them you reference are almost all products of this and myriad other misrepresentations of the message of the Kingdom into the worship of the creation in some form or another.

Many are fooled—so many, in fact, it’s becoming painfully apparent that the elitist view of common-folk chattel being as gullible as a herd of cattle might not really be too far off.  Maybe we have this world because it’s what we deserve.  By default, it seems, the world does love the darkness.  Another barrier to keep in mind is we hate to admit we’ve been fooled.  Even for the few who have received the love of the Truth, having been fooled angers us.  But we all have our levels of being too trusting and misinformed in life.  I never believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or Evolutionism, even as a child, but, it turns out it were the fairytale ones that had at least some basis of historicity.  The deception Jesus spoke of is spectacular.  And I have to admit they had me going on Copernicusian globular Heliocentrism for most my life.  

All we can do then is plant seeds and hope some take.  There is an awakening happening right, now, and maybe having the problem’s framework in view would help us formulate effective approaches.  But, especially then, be prepared to shake the dust off your sandals and move on.   

Once again, my reply is way long.  Hope I wasn’t too boring.  Love    

 

[1] 2 Thessalonians 2: 9-12

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