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Still Alive

I've changed my mind. I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old

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After a re-read of Genesis and some of Revelation with a new perspective, I now believe that the "earth" is 6,000 years old. But to clarify, there is a reason I put "earth" in quotes. 

Thing is, Genesis begins with "in the beginning". Well, the beginning of what? And how long before the six days of creation was this "beginning".  All stories start at the beginning of the story, but rarely at the birth of the characters in the story.

Also, in revelation we are told the earth is destroyed (and there is no sea) and there is a new heaven and a new earth. Well, I always thought it meant the earth was COMPLETELY destroyed, but a better interpretation of the actual scripture is that the surface of the earth is basically scorched to the point that it is a clean slate on which God will build a new age. 

And that may be what happened before our six days of creation. The bible is silent regarding what happened before the beginning of the story.

I use mount Rushmore as an illustration/analogy. If I were to ask you, "how old is Mt Rushmore?", and you knew the history of the creation of the art that adorns it, you might quickly answer based on your understanding that construction of the memorial began in 1927 and ended in 1941. But as we know, Mt. Rushmore is a lot older than that.

So, I see the age of the monument as analogous to the age of the results of the "six days of creation" (six thousand years, approximately) and the age of the actual mountain as analogous to the age of this sphere we call the earth (quite a bit older, actually). 

BTW, I'm not bringing up here the subject of "how long were the six days, really". I see it as a different discussion.

 

Thoughts?

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Shalom, Still Alive.

Actually, you're still using an "accomodation theory," attempting to accomodate the theory of Evolution into the biblical account of Genesis. It doesn't work, and here's why:

Genesis 3:8-20 (KJV)

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve (Hebrew: Chavah, with the "ch" sounding like the "ch" in the Scottish word "loch"); because she was the mother of all living.

And, if that's not clear enough, we can also find this:

Romans 5:12-17 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

... compounded with this:

Romans 8:18-25 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Death and decay, according to the Bible, came upon Creation from the Fall of Adam. But, how does Evolution paint history? The WHOLE TIME SPAN of the earth for BILLIONS of years (3.5 billion years, at least) involve death and decay, LONG before Adam would have come along in an "accomodation theory!"

It's better to believe the Creation account of Genesis 1-2 WITHOUT trying to fit Evolution into the equation.

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On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:41 AM, Still Alive said:

After a re-read of Genesis and some of Revelation with a new perspective, I now believe that the "earth" is 6,000 years old. But to clarify, there is a reason I put "earth" in quotes. 

Thing is, Genesis begins with "in the beginning". Well, the beginning of what? And how long before the six days of creation was this "beginning".  All stories start at the beginning of the story, but rarely at the birth of the characters in the story.

Also, in revelation we are told the earth is destroyed (and there is no sea) and there is a new heaven and a new earth. Well, I always thought it meant the earth was COMPLETELY destroyed, but a better interpretation of the actual scripture is that the surface of the earth is basically scorched to the point that it is a clean slate on which God will build a new age. 

And that may be what happened before our six days of creation. The bible is silent regarding what happened before the beginning of the story.

I use mount Rushmore as an illustration/analogy. If I were to ask you, "how old is Mt Rushmore?", and you knew the history of the creation of the art that adorns it, you might quickly answer based on your understanding that construction of the memorial began in 1927 and ended in 1941. But as we know, Mt. Rushmore is a lot older than that.

So, I see the age of the monument as analogous to the age of the results of the "six days of creation" (six thousand years, approximately) and the age of the actual mountain as analogous to the age of this sphere we call the earth (quite a bit older, actually). 

BTW, I'm not bringing up here the subject of "how long were the six days, really". I see it as a different discussion.

 

Thoughts?

Just as an interesting side note, Mt. Rushmore was originally known to the Lakota Sioux as "The Six Grandfathers" (Tunkasila Sakpe) or "Cougar Mountain" (Igmu Tanka Paha).

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Guest shiloh357
On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:41 AM, Still Alive said:

After a re-read of Genesis and some of Revelation with a new perspective, I now believe that the "earth" is 6,000 years old. But to clarify, there is a reason I put "earth" in quotes. 

Thing is, Genesis begins with "in the beginning". Well, the beginning of what? And how long before the six days of creation was this "beginning".  All stories start at the beginning of the story, but rarely at the birth of the characters in the story.

Before Genesis 1:1, there was the dateless eternal past.  The "beginning" of Genesis begins with the creation of our world/universe.  There was "beginning" before Genesis 1:1. 

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Also, in revelation we are told the earth is destroyed (and there is no sea) and there is a new heaven and a new earth. Well, I always thought it meant the earth was COMPLETELY destroyed, but a better interpretation of the actual scripture is that the surface of the earth is basically scorched to the point that it is a clean slate on which God will build a new age. 

No, Revelation 20 tells us that this current universe will be destroyed.  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.  (Rev 20:11)

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And that may be what happened before our six days of creation. The bible is silent regarding what happened before the beginning of the story.

 

That's right.  There is no biblical data to tell us what happened before Genesis 1:1.  And where the Bible is silent, we should be silent.  

 

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I use mount Rushmore as an illustration/analogy. If I were to ask you, "how old is Mt Rushmore?", and you knew the history of the creation of the art that adorns it, you might quickly answer based on your understanding that construction of the memorial began in 1927 and ended in 1941. But as we know, Mt. Rushmore is a lot older than that.

Please don't insult people's intelligence.   No one would assume that Mt. Rushmore didn't exist before the images of the three presidents.  No one is that dumb. 

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So, I see the age of the monument as analogous to the age of the results of the "six days of creation" (six thousand years, approximately) and the age of the actual mountain as analogous to the age of this sphere we call the earth (quite a bit older, actually). 

That is what the "Gap Theory" proposes, but it contradicts the Bible and the Hebrew will not allow for there to be a pre-adamite earth prior to the creation account.  

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Still Alive.

Actually, you're still using an "accomodation theory," attempting to accomodate the theory of Evolution into the biblical account of Genesis. It doesn't work, and here's why:

Actually, no. What I'm accomodating is the evidence, not the theories and hypotheses that people make from it. 

My main focus is on the phrase "beginning" and its context within the context of the teaching of bible. The very first line of genesis 1 could theoretically be interpreted as "In the beginning of this dispensation..." and represent what God started on the clean slate of a bare planetary surface, made bare in the destruction of some sort of dispensation or age before it. And there could have been one before that, and before that, and before that, etc. 

I'm not saying it's true. Rather, the bible is silent on it, which means that saying nothing came before it or saying what I hypothesized above are both speaking to something on which the bible is silent. But the evidence all around us supports the latter more than the former.

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Guest shiloh357
11 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Actually, no. What I'm accomodating is the evidence, not the theories and hypotheses that people make from it. 

My main focus is on the phrase "beginning" and its context within the context of the teaching of bible. The very first line of genesis 1 could theoretically be interpreted as "In the beginning of this dispensation..." and represent what God started on the clean slate of a bare planetary surface, made bare in the destruction of some sort of dispensation or age before it. And there could have been one before that, and before that, and before that, etc. 

I'm not saying it's true. Rather, the bible is silent on it, which means that saying nothing came before it or saying what I hypothesized above are both speaking to something on which the bible is silent. But the evidence all around us supports the latter more than the former.

No, the evidence around us doesn't support that you hypothesized.  In fact, the biblical evidence speaks against it and the biblical data is more important and authoritative than what people think they see in nature.

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Just now, shiloh357 said:

No, the evidence around us doesn't support that you hypothesized.  In fact, the biblical evidence speaks against it and the biblical data is more important and authoritative than what people think they see in nature.

This is where we disagree. I believe science is about how and the bible is about why. Science is simply the examination of the world around us and how creation works. Religion is about WHY we are here and our relationship with our creator. The evidence is legion that everything is much older than 6,000 years. But THIS iteration on the earth's surface may, in fact, be 6,000 years old. But even then, most of our "biblical" dating techniques for earth before humans witnessed it is conjecture based on how we interpret the bible. 

It's like when the bible says a fire in unquenchable, people think that means it never goes out. But what it means is that it can't be quenched. It will go out on its own, or it could never go out. Both are possible. And so often people see text about "the universe" when It may be about this planet, its atmosphere, etc. 

Could God have placed stars, millions of light years away, 6,000 years ago, and at the same time placed all the electromagnetic light waves/photons between there and here at exactly the same moment to give it the appearance of being old? Sure. But you don't have to believe that to accept what the bible says. All one needs to do is consider what was really being written by Moses, John, and anyone else that touches on the subject and realize we are often adding meaning to words and phrases that is really not there. I've caught myself doing it the more I study and I believe I will continue to catch myself doing it as I continue my journey to know the Lord and his plan for me the remainder of my life.

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Guest shiloh357
9 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

This is where we disagree. I believe science is about how and the bible is about why.

I believe that too, but the science is the means by which we examine the scope of God's creation.  The why and the how are not in contradiction.

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Science is simply the examination of the world around us and how creation works. Religion is about WHY we are here and our relationship with our creator.

This is not about "religion," but the biblical account, and the authority of Scripture.  The Bible trumps science.  What happened is that we have placed science in authority over Scripture and allowed scientists to hi-jack the interpretation of the Bible.   Now we have those who tell us that the Bible is true only insofar as science will allow it to be true and if the Bible and science are in contradiction, science wins the benefit of the doubt over the Bible.  Science has become the infallible standard against which the Bible is judged, when  it should be the other way around.   The claims of Scripture should be the lens through which science is studied and understood.

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The evidence is legion that everything is much older than 6,000 years.

LOL not is not. 

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But THIS iteration on the earth's surface may, in fact, be 6,000 years old. But even then, most of our "biblical" dating techniques for earth before humans witnessed it is conjecture based on how we interpret the bible. 

No, it is not conjecture and scientific dating methods are woefully unreliable.

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It's like when the bible says a fire in unquenchable, people think that means it never goes out. But what it means is that it can't be quenched. It will go out on its own, or it could never go out. Both are possible. And so often people see text about "the universe" when It may be about this planet, its atmosphere, etc. 

You are comparing two dissimilar things.  

 

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Could God have placed stars, millions of light years away, 6,000 years ago, and at the same time placed all the electromagnetic light waves/photons between there and here at exactly the same moment to give it the appearance of being old? Sure.

But He didn't do that. 

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But you don't have to believe that to accept what the bible says. All one needs to do is consider what was really being written by Moses, John, and anyone else that touches on the subject and realize we are often adding meaning to words and phrases that is really not there.

Such as?

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There is only one mention of precreation in God's Holy Councils

This after creation for there exist Heavenly places
Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
 
This before God created
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV

This after the creation of the world
1 Peter 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

This before God created
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
KJV


It is with this uniqueness that we begin in creation to pass through the great white throne and then total destruction of creation into a new creation where sin has never been nor considered 'The Eternal State' ... The testimony of God's Word is God cannot be thwarted because it 'IS' before the creation and continues into the Eternal State... This is why it is the foundation of eternity
John 12:46-50
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
KJV

These Words echo with all the above from a Living witness before creation and within His Own Creation-> 'I AM that I AM' ... the lie has never had part with God's Creation for it is with begin and end and never more considered! We who are born in Jesus The Christ will one day be taken into the precreation councils of God and into the Eternal State for they are the intimacies we are promised in redemption
1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV

understanding the first becoming the last and last the first we see God 'The Uncreated' over all, in all and sealed in His Righteousness through eternity in Him....
1 John 3:3-5
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
KJV
This the seal of understanding we are to reckon this present world and it's activities dead ... leaving us with the question are you packing eternal things for your journey?
  

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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Such as?

What does "in the beginning" really mean? The beginning of the story of mankind on this planet? The story of our galaxy? The story of the universe, etc.

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