The Great Cloud of Witnesses

[Christine]

‘ ... Wherefore seeing we also 
are compassed about 
with so great a cloud of witnesses, 
let us lay aside every weight, 
and the sin which doth so easily beset us, 
and let us run with patience 
the race that is set before us, ... ‘
(Heb 12:1)  

Hello there,

Yesterday morning I met with four other Christian friends, to discuss a portion of Scripture together. We met in the cafe of a local beauty spot, overlooking a lake, our Bibles open before us. Our conversation was one of such happiness in the Lord, that it could not help but be a positive witness to those sharing the same facilities.  I pray that it will have been so.

During the discussion, we touched on the state of the dead, and one of our company referred to, 'the great cloud of witnesses', of the verse above, to justify her belief that believers go immediately to heaven when they die.  Obviously believing that they are in heaven and witnessing our faith in operation today.  I had considered this several years ago, but needed to refresh my mind about the passage again, so did not make comment. 

As you will know the great cloud of witnesses refers to the Old Testament saints commended in chapter 11, for their witness to the power of faith, who by their lives showed their faith in action, even to the laying down of their lives.  This morning I have been reading about these 'elders' who 'obtained a good report through faith,' (11:39) . The word, 'report' and 'witnesses' are related, and refer (in the Greek) to witness borne, and given with the mouth, or by the laying down of the life.  They have nothing whatever to do with the eyes.

These elders bore testimony through their faith, and the whole of chapter 11 is given in order to encourage those to whom it was written to endure the great suffering they were going though. The argument is that others had endured and been engaged in the same fight in former days.  The examples chosen are those which exhibit this endurance, which only a living faith in the living God could produce.

Moses and the others all 'endured as seeing Him, Who is invisible.'but now, in chapter 12, we see the greatest example of all, and are exhorted to run our course with endurance, looking away from all others who so endured, to Him Who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sits at the right hand of the throne of God. 

To endure and await God's time.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Christine

[Guest shiloh357]

20 minutes ago, Christine said:

As you will know the great cloud of witnesses refers to the Old Testament saints commended in chapter 11, for their witness to the power of faith, who by their lives showed their faith in action, even to the laying down of their lives.  This morning I have been reading about these 'elders' who 'obtained a good report through faith,' (11:39) . The word, 'report' and 'witnesses' are related, and refer (in the Greek) to witness borne, and given with the mouth, or by the laying down of the life.  They have nothing whatever to do with the eyes.

These elders bore testimony through their faith, and the whole of chapter 11 is given in order to encourage those to whom it was written to endure the great suffering they were going though. The argument is that others had endured and been engaged in the same fight in former days.  The examples chosen are those which exhibit this endurance, which only a living faith in the living God could produce.

I have heard that verse out of Hebrews used many times to say that those in Heaven are watching us "run the race" and that is not what Paul (who I believe wrote Hebrews) meant.   His point was that we have a "cloud" (or multitude) of "witnesses" (or examples) to draw from in order to encourage who serve as encouragement to us to continue learning faith and walking in faith. 

[Duval]

Hello?

[Christine]

Sorry, @Duval,

I have only now returned to this thread, and seen your greeting.  

I give you a belated welcome, and hope to see more input from you soon.

In Christ Jesus

Chris

[MadHermit]

"The great cloud of witnesses" includes the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11.  But  what Hebrews does not say is crucial to the point: it does not say, "Seeing that we are preceded by so great a cloud of witnesses."  We are rather surrounded by them.  The image is of a great arena where we, the living spiritual athletes, run our races, while deceased saints witness our efforts, cheering us on, and even sending us aid.  It is helpful to note that "witnesses" in Hebrews always designates eyewitnesses; dead saints are actually monitoring our progress.  This text inspired the line in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints."

[angels4u]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:01 AM, MadHermit said:

"The great cloud of witnesses" includes the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11.  But  what Hebrews does not say is crucial to the point: it does not say, "Seeing that we are preceded by so great a cloud of witnesses."  We are rather surrounded by them.  The image is of a great arena where we, the living spiritual athletes, run our races, while deceased saints witness our efforts, cheering us on, and even sending us aid.  It is helpful to note that "witnesses" in Hebrews always designates eyewitnesses; dead saints are actually monitoring our progress.  This text inspired the line in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints."

 

Quote

 while deceased saints witness our efforts, cheering us on

 

Where do you find that in the Bible?

Quote

dead saints are actually monitoring our progress. 

Where is that found in the Bible?

[ShinyGospelShoes]

On 4/28/2018 at 4:01 AM, Christine said:

‘ ... Wherefore seeing we also 
are compassed about 
with so great a cloud of witnesses, 
let us lay aside every weight, 
and the sin which doth so easily beset us, 
and let us run with patience 
the race that is set before us, ... ‘
(Heb 12:1) ...

Chris

If I may interject a prayerfully studied thought about the "so great cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1, for your (and others) consideration, in the light of its immediate context?  It reads:

Hebrews 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

I would ask, all reading, to take careful notice of the words "wherefore" and importantly, the "we also".

The "wherefore" connects this verse (Hebrews 12:1) to the previous verses, Hebrews 11:1-40.  Hebrews is written in building block format, beginning with the foundation stone in Hebrews 1, and builds upon each point, in its varied "therefore", "wherefore", and etc. statements, finally completing itself in Hebrews 13.  More detail as necessary on that.

Now, please consider the words "we also".  These words in connection with the words "are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses", and the "wherefore", when studied most prayerfully, point us to 'the angelic hosts of heaven and the beings of the unfallen worlds', and not to the deceased saints from this earth, this fallen world.  Follow me for a moment back to Hebrews 11, and then we will come back to Hebrews 12:1 again.

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2  For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The chapter begins by focusing upon "faith", of the "elders".  These "elders", or Patriarchs & Matriarchs, of "faith", begin to be listed with "Abel" in Hebrews 11:4, but before him, please take especial notice of Hebrews 11:3, in which the words "the worlds" (plural; dealing with spacial) "were framed by the word of God".  Also take note that Hebrews 11:2, repeats what Hebrews 1:2 stated:

Hebrews 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This "world", 'earth', is not the only "world" that God created.  More on this later.  Look now to Hebrews 11:4 -

Hebrews 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

"Abel" is counted as one of the "elders" who had by his "faith" "obtained a good report".  The question then becomes, 'By who?'  For Paul (writer of Hebrews), says in Hebrews 12:1, that he (Abel, and the others listed in Hebrews 11:1-40; "Enoch", "Noah", "Abraham", "Sara", "Isaac", "Jacob", "Joseph", "Moses", "walls of Jericho (Joshua and Israel)", "Rahab", "Gedeon", "Barak", "Samson", "Jephthae", "David", "Samuel", various "women", etc.) had a "great cloud of witnesses" to their "faith", as well as for Paul and the current followers of God.  This is why Hebrews 12:1 says, "we also".

Therefore, "Abel", who being the first to die in the "faith", "obtained a good report", and "he obtained witness", even from God, of which it is said, "God testifying of his gifts", and was "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses".

The question becomes, who "witnessed" and "report[ed]" the "faith" of "Abel"?  It cannot be anyone deceased, for no one had yet died (and he was the first), among other scriptural reasons, and it cannot be the living Adam, nor Eve, since they would have stopped Cain from killing Abel had they been around them both.  It cannot be Cain, who was "of that wicked one" and gave a lying report.  It could only have been 'God', and the 'angels and unfallen worlds' who were looking on, and the events transpiring here, because of Genesis 3:15.

Now some may point to the word "witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1), and say that the Koine Greek (G3144) reads "μαρτυρων", "marturwn".  It surely does, and therefore, no need to struggle against the point.  However, the word simply means to "witness", to bear "record", and does not always mean 'martyr' in the sense of 'dying' or being 'martyed' for the faith, though it can in proper context (see Revelation 17:6).  For instance, the very same word is used in Romans 1:9;  2 Corinthians 1:23; Philippians 1:8:

Romans 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

2 Corinthians 1:23  Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

Philippians 1:8  For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

In fact, out of all the 34 times that G3144 is utilized in the NT, it is basically only used to mean 'martyr' in 3 passages (Acts 22:20; Revelation 2:13, 17:6).  One might make a case for 1 or 2 more, after a certain manner.

The related word (G3140) is utilized in Romans 3:21 (ie. the "two witnesses", being "the law and the prophets", the Word of God, the Scriptures) -

Romans 3:21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

If we look at "Enoch" (Hebrews 11:5), he never saw death, but God "took him", translating him, and thus would not fit the 'martyr' (dying) category even if one desired to still apply it in Hebrews 11, but his "testimony, [was] that he pleased God".

Now, we know that "Abel" is not one looking on to the other faithful to follow, like Paul and or us, for Hebrews 11:2 clearly says of "Abel", "and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

Now let us consider who is 'watching' us, in the Heavens, even upon the other unfallen 'worlds' (no, not little (or big) green, grey 'aliens' and the like, for that is 'sci-fi' (1 Timothy 6:20)).

Consider that Hebrews 11:2, uses the word "cloud" in connection with these 'witnesses'.  "Clouds" are associated with "angels" in scripture:

Isaiah 14:14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Daniel 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Matthew 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

For the angels are the heavenly 'waters' which surround God (heavenly "Watchers", "Watcher, and an Holy One"; Daniel 4:13,17,23, the "Holy One" is Jesus Christ (2 Kings 19:22; Job 6:10; Psalms 16:10, 71:22, 78:41, 89:18,19; Isaiah 1:4, 5:19,24, 10:17,20, 12:6, 17:7, 29:29,23, 30;11,12,15, 31:1, 37:23, 40:25, 41:14,16,20, 43:3,14,15, 45:11, 47:4, 48:17, 49:7, 54:5, 55:5, 60:9,14; Jeremiah 50:29, 51:5; Ezekiel 39:7; Hosea 11:9; Habakkuk 1:12, 3:3; Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 2:27, 3:14, 13:35; 1 John 2:20).  These are watching with intense interest the events upon this earth.

1 Peter 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Now, as for the unfallen "worlds", and their unfallen populations, consider carefully:

We are that one lost world (we are the 'aliens', the foreign element in a sinless universe, satan has reversed this, we, who are Christians, are the 'pilgrims', foreigners here now), whom the Son of God, 'Jesus', left the '99' for in Heaven to come and save us, that he might come from that "far country" (Isaiah 13:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 9:12, 20:9) and deliver us, and "return home" with us, that we may once again have a "place" among those "many mansions":

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Matthew 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Luke 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

There is of course a lot more to this, and with far greater detail, but I pray that this has been helpful to you and all in your studies.  Thank you for your consideration.  Any questions are welcomed.

Edited August 12, 2018 by ShinyGospelShoes
spelling; double-fixed; formatting correction (it was getting late)

[Michael37]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:01 PM, Christine said:

As you will know the great cloud of witnesses refers to the Old Testament saints commended in chapter 11, for their witness to the power of faith, who by their lives showed their faith in action, even to the laying down of their lives.  This morning I have been reading about these 'elders' who 'obtained a good report through faith,' (11:39) . The word, 'report' and 'witnesses' are related, and refer (in the Greek) to witness borne, and given with the mouth, or by the laying down of the life.  They have nothing whatever to do with the eyes.

Hi Christine, Along the lines of your comment, as yet I don't know of any Scripture that supports an alternative meaning, namely that the witnesses are able to observe our lives as some suppose. People do like to think their loved ones are looking down on them and are somehow contributing to their happiness, but I am of the opinion this is not a concept being advanced in Hebrews 12:1.

Rather there is a continuation of the thought in Hebrews 11:39-40
(39)  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40)  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
that God has provided a better thing for us than the OT promise of Christ, namely the NT completed work of Christ. As well as this "better thing" we have the aforementioned OT saints as examples to keep in mind.

The fact that in Greek arenas there was a gallery called "the cloud" from where spectators could watch atheletes compete is no reason to suppose the OT saints are so positioned other than in a metaphorical sense in our thoughts with which we may be encouraged. 

The theme of "better things" runs right through Hebrews and here in these verses we have it again, this time the spirits of just men have been made perfect with the sprinkling of the blood of Christ being better than that of Abel. 

Heb 12:22-24
(22)  But you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(23)  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(24)  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

[Christine]

Thank you, @ShinyGospelShoes, and @Michael37,

I have read and taken note of what you have said, but can't respond at present.  I am finding the screen is affecting my eyes and making me feel sick at present.

* The great cloud of witnesses, like you and I, are awaiting resurrection.   

Praise God!

Thank you again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Edited August 12, 2018 by Christine

[Fidei Defensor]

I have always thought it is the OT and New Testament saints and others watching us from hippodrome seats in heaven. They can’t communicate with us or appear to us (Deuteronomy 18:11). However, I do believe they cheer us on and saying though we cannot hear, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.” (2 Timothy 4:7)

Edited August 12, 2018 by Fidei Defensor