Who owns the earth and all that is on it?

[Dan_79]

17 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Dan,

Satan only influences mankind, He is not responsible for everything. Man was given dominion of the earth and thus will be held responsible as to how they look after it.

`..the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

We are to be responsible to the laws of the land and taxes etc as long as they do not conflict with God`s, ie killing others, oppressing people etc. And yes much of what Governments legislate is not perfect, but as we live in a fallen world with fallen people then we do have to try and -

`...aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands.....that you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.` (1 Thess. 4: 11 & 12)

Marilyn. 

Marilyn.

So just to clarify your answer is a yes or a no?

Obviously during our wait for the return of Yeshua, the government Paul commands us to submit to is either holy or evil.

God is the highest authority there is, hence I am so confused as to why Paul never commanded we submit to him (even after Yeshua says same).

 

 

[Dan_79]

1 minute ago, warrior12 said:

 Have you seen the movie " Animal farm"

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” 
― George Orwell, Animal Farm

 

Yes.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, Dan_79 said:

Hi enoob57.

Are the governments Paul commanded everyone to submit to in the present dominion, giving tribute to Satan or God?

I'm assuming it cannot be both.

Like ceasar for example .    Was rome paying homage to GOD .     You spot on , heck no they weren't .   They were pagan gods and all that stuff.

YET I heard ,  RENDER TO CEASAR that which is ceasar and to GOD that which is GODS .    Look ,  you don't want to pay taxes .  OKAY

but don't be trying to make others seem as they do the work of satan or support satan ,   because they render taxes or tribute unto ceasars .

This is the stuff I am talking about .   they making sin issues into something that was never a sin to do.

I guess JOSEPH   who turned the percentage of giving unto EYGPT   ,   guess he did the work of satan.  I mean he created that system .   They had to now give a fifth of their dues

WE gots to stop squabbling over issues THAT AINT SIN .  and start correcting over issues THAT ARE SIN .  

[frienduff thaylorde]

Since we on this , lets give a PROPER example OF HOW To refuse that which is evil .  

Let the govt tell me I have to pay my employees health care that contributes to abortion .    AND watch .    I AINT GONNA DO IT .

see the difference.    But taxes are taxes , tribute is tribute .   We got six pages over this and for what .   for division and strife over something that aint even a sin issue.

No wonder the churches are crumbling .    Fighting over things which they ought not , and support evil which they should not .   I mean its a madhouse .

[Marilyn C]

44 minutes ago, Dan_79 said:

Marilyn.

So just to clarify your answer is a yes or a no?

Obviously during our wait for the return of Yeshua, the government Paul commands us to submit to is either holy or evil.

God is the highest authority there is, hence I am so confused as to why Paul never commanded we submit to him (even after Yeshua says same).

 

 

Hi Dan,

Wanting a `yes or no` is a loaded question. You are assuming that all governments are Satan`s. Man is responsible for governing. God gave him that responsibility and many leaders in the past have governed well. Here is your loaded question - 

So in the meantime (awaiting the return of Yeshua) are we being asked to give tribute to Satan and his earthly Government?

My answer, (again) is that not all earthly governments are controlled by Satan. Your question is wrong.

Marilyn.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Dan_79 said:

Honor God and honor your parents etc etc but I don't see God at all

commanding we honor satan anywhere in the bible.

Do you not think it would be even slightly hypocritical to give any tribute to satan, no matter how small, if all of the law hangs on Jesus words: 

"you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.'"

(that could also read there is little left to give satan after giving the LORD everything you have).

Satan is to be given no place in your life...

Eph 4:27

27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV
God has said

Matt 22:21

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
KJV
The problem lies in the manipulation of Scripture to suit oneself instead of God Who has written it...

[Dan_79]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Satan is to be given no place in your life...

Eph 4:27

27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV
God has said

Matt 22:21

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
KJV
The problem lies in the manipulation of Scripture to suit oneself instead of God Who has written it...

You have the same problem in your answer.

You assume everyone owes caesar?

You say Satan should be avoided, what about his evil earthly government?

You leave that part out.

Either what others say to us is commanded is holy or evil.

Your answer assumes you can serve both at the same time (serve God while serving evil demi-god caesars). 

 

[Dan_79]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Dan,

Wanting a `yes or no` is a loaded question. You are assuming that all governments are Satan`s. Man is responsible for governing. God gave him that responsibility and many leaders in the past have governed well. Here is your loaded question - 

So in the meantime (awaiting the return of Yeshua) are we being asked to give tribute to Satan and his earthly Government?

My answer, (again) is that not all earthly governments are controlled by Satan. Your question is wrong.

Marilyn.

You cannot wriggle it.

Either you are condoning giving tribute to evil, in the form of an earthly government run by Satan on earth,

or

All earthly governments are from GOD (mirror his commandments and are holy).

You seem confused about differentiating between the two by saying a question is wrong.

Can you really serve Satan AND God? Is that question wrong?

It is not difficult to answer if you apply discernment to what a government does or expects a child of God to commit to.

 

[Dan_79]

The commandment (Exodus 20) "Thou shalt not steal" implies the right to private property, and this is everywhere assumed in Scripture (even in Acts 5). If princes had the unlimited right to tax, to any extent and for any purpose, there could be no private property. All would belong to the state, or to the prince personally. Since this is not so, there must be limit to the allowable extent and purpose of taxation

"For, for this cause pay you tribute also; for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."

Here the apostle argues the duty of paying taxes, from this consideration that those who perform the duty of rulers, are continually attending upon the public welfare.

But how does this argument conclude for paying taxes to such princes as are continually endeavoring to ruin the public?

And especially when such payment would facilitate and promote this wicked design!

"Render therefore to all their dues; tribute, to whom tribute is due; custom, to whom custom; fear, to whom fear; honor, to whom honor."

Here the apostle sums up what he had been saying concerning the duty of subjects to rulers. And his argument stands thus—"Since magistrates who execute their office well, are common benefactors to society, and may, in that respect, be properly styled the ministers and ordinance of God; and since they are constantly employed in the service of the public, it becomes you to pay them tribute and custom; and to reverence, honor, and submit to them in the execution of their respective offices."

This is apparently good reasoning.

But does this argument conclude for the duty of paying tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience to such persons as (although they bear the title of rulers) use all their power to hurt and injure the public?

Such as are not God's ministers, but Satan's?

Such as do not take care of, and attend upon the public interest, but their own, to the ruin of the public? that is, in short, to such as have no natural and just claim at all to tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience?

It is to be hoped that those who have any regard to the apostle's character as an inspired writer, or even as a man of common understanding, will not present him as reasoning in such a loose incoherent manner; and drawing conclusions which have not the least relation to his premises.

For what can be more absurd than an argument thus framed?

"Rulers are, by their office, bound to consult the public welfare and the good of society: therefore you are bound to pay them tribute, to honor, and submit to them, even when they destroy the public welfare, and are a common pest to society, by acting in direct contradiction to the nature and end of their office."

Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle's reasoning in this passage, it appears that his arguments to enforce submission, are of such a nature, as to conclude only in favor of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e. such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution.

Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not entitled to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of anything here laid down by the inspired apostle.

Socialism is a system based on stealing. The whole point of socialism is for the government to seize control of private property, mainly involving the proceeds of peoples' work, in order to give it to others. (Note the compulsory aspect of socialism, which so differs from voluntary forms of communalism.) This activity is the very thing pronounced as evil by the 8th Commandment: "You shall not steal" (Ex. 20:15).
... While there is a legitimate basis for government taxation, the simple taking of one's possessions in order to give them to others is not one of them. Socialism is evil because it inherently involves stealing. 

Socialism is theft, as all taxation is theft. Yes, Christ told us to render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and because of that, people do… but that doesn’t negate the act of taxation being theft just like “if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” doesn’t negate the first slap from being assault.

If I saw someone getting punched in the face, especially if they are a non-Christian, I wouldn’t tell him “That’s not assault, as Christ told you to turn your other cheek as well.” No, it’s assault and all taxation is theft. How are we to react?

Just like Christ told us. But it doesn’t absolve the aggressor (Caesar or an abuser) of their sin.

Are you seriously saying that taxation is not theft, simply because Christ told His followers to pay Caesar?

What about our non-believing neighbors that abhor paying taxes?

I understand that Christ’s words are binding on my soul, they compel me, but my non-Christian neighbor doesn’t feel that way. Is it theft for him? Who will stick up for him? 

So are taxes theft?

Absolutely.

We submit to paying those taxes only because the consequences of not paying them are worse.

If you no or say the government has evil elements you force yourself to give tribute to Satan!

This is no different than a highway bandit that positions himself at the beginning of a route and demands all passers-by pay a toll in exchange for “safe passage” along the road. Is the bandit a thief?

Or a champion of wealth redistribution?

You are splitting hairs.

[Neighbor]

20 hours ago, Dan_79 said:

I asked you brother Yowm.

Who owns the world and everything on it?

You told me it is God. I happen to agree with you! I think you are correct.

It naturally follows everyone has access to materials land and food, no man can be homeless? God has given the every individual a whole earth to live on, no restrainsts as he gave law and advice on how to cope with life on earth... A free gift and use of any permitted food for sustenance so there can be no reason for anyone becoming hungry and enjoyment? Everyone is happy!

 This means that there are a notional four acres available for every man, woman and child in the predicted 2050 world population 0f nine billion

Praise the LORD.

Hi,

Jumping in late to the discussion. I contend that  the opening post premise is wrong. It does not naturally follow that everyone has access to materials and food. Therefore; everything that flows from that premise is false.

God's word tells us that not everyone has access, and certainly not equal access, to all things.

What is generally considered the oldest written script the Book of Job tells otherwise.

All is not equal, not all have the same reward, not the same fate, and not the same end. All do serve the good purposes of God, but all do not end up eternally with God, and not all live equally blessed in the flesh on earth.  It is most fortunate that is not the case for if it were then all would be destroyed for all  have fallen short of the standard of God, which is perfection, save perhaps two. If God were fair to all He would destroy us all and be done with it. But God has mercy and has compassion. He has reconciled the failure of man, the failure of Adam, and has restored many from under His curse upon creation to be seen as perfect in his eye by the cover made in blood by His son our Lord Jesus. 

If fair and equal were to be our common plight we would all perish.

"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" - Job.