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KiwiChristian

If the Bible is a Catholic book...

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On 2/17/2019 at 2:54 PM, JMJ said:

But how do you know what the correct gospel is and ho would you determine what is the correct gospel is and what it is not?

Scripture. Do you have something superior to, or equal to, Bible scriptures?

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On 2/1/2019 at 2:18 PM, ByFaithAlone said:

I actually never claimed that it is a requirement mandated by Scripture and neither does Catholicism or Orthodoxy as far as I understand their positions. As I mentioned previously, it is is a matter of tradition within both Orthodoxy and Catholicism and is not a matter of doctrine.  In other words, it is subject to change if either Church views it as no longer valuable for the spiritual health of the clergy. I think both Catholic and Orthodox doctrine and tradition are both vastly misunderstood by those of us who are Protestant and by dispelling some of these myths we can move closer to ecumenicalism. 

It must be a matter of doctrine, not tradition only, since only unmarrieds can be priests and nuns, for Rome.

I do not misunderstand Roman doctrine, and when I read about it, I try to stick to materials with the imprimatur of the Index of the Holy See and etc. so I know I'm reading official doctrine, not philosophy.

Ecumenicalism is fine to me as long as all have the same gospel. I'm saved because I trusted Jesus for salvation, not because of sacral living, works, orders, confession, Mass, etc. Different gospel there. Am I incorrect about Rome's different gospel? (And saying "I was saved by Jesus and now I MUST ALSO...") is still a different gospel.

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On 2/1/2019 at 12:50 PM, ByFaithAlone said:

I think this is probably a vast simplification with no real evidence to back it up as it really hasn't been tried for a long time. You seem to imply that celibacy increases sexual problems but I don't think there are other studies that support that. According to the famous John Jay College study on the issue of pedophilia and sexual misconduct, there is a rate of around 0.5-2% in the Catholic priesthood depending on the time period examined. This is about the same with comparable organizations that are peers (Protestant Churches, etc.) according to Hiel 2018. The rate of pedophiles in the general population is relatively unstudied but I've seen estimates from 0.5-5%. Now none of this is a good thing but it is average according to the data I have seen and nothing seems to indicate that celibacy is at fault. 

You go on to mention some perceived Biblical problems with the concept of celibacy. As to what the Bible says about celibacy, let us remember that Christ talks about those "who choose to live like enauchs for the sake of the Kingdom" in Matthew 19 and he does not condemn those who do so. Paul further writes in 1 Corinthians 7 about some of the potential benefits of celibacy and marriage. 

I think that people that grow up in a Protestant environment, myself included, tend to grow up with a rather negative view of celibacy (clerical or otherwise). It is certainly not a doctrinal position that clergy must be celibate. On this, I think Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants agree. However, as a tradition within the Church, it is a fairly old idea and not something I think we should condemn out of hand simply because it is most common in Catholicism.    

The issue is twofold: human sexuality plus a misunderstanding/misapplication of God's grace. I know saved people who live celibate lives. I know unsaved people who live as celibate clergy and destroy souls and lives. As long as Rome does not teach the historic, clear, saving gospel, celibacy will compound the issue.

The same issue lies with many mainline Protestant groups. A true study from John Jay would compare born again celibates to non-born agains IMHO. I would also question even the 2% rate with the recent Me Too names that have come forward. It seems more like a tidal wave than 2% so far.

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On 2/17/2019 at 10:03 AM, JMJ said:

I agree that Jesus is the Hiogh Priest but He also entrusted the "keys" to Peter and said,

Not only Peter, but all of His disciples:

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Mat 16:20

What are the so called keys? Peter's confession:

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:16

At the day of Pentecost all of His disciples we given the keys:

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:4, 6-8

It's plural, not just one, ...not only the 12, we read others of the 120 were given the keys too, ...so the question is, ...what are the keys

Don't keys unlock doors? Didn't Jesus talk of a door? Are not doors an defensive weapon rather than an offensive one? So then the logical question is, ...what door?

...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Mat 16:18

So then we need to ask the question, ...what are the gates of Hell protecting or keeping people from exiting?

Does not the Word teach that Hell is the place of the dead?

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  Luke 16:22, 26

Does not the Word teach that every human born on this planet is Hell bound?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  John 3:16-18

So then, can we not deduce that the keys are the Gospel message, the key that opens the eyes of those that are perishing:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Cor 4:3, 4

What can we say, Jesus didn't give the keys to just one person, ...He gave the keys to the 12 disciples, ...and to the 120, ...and to ever born again child of God, to do what? To preach that my church is the ONLY correct and true church on planet earth, ...no, we are to preach the Gospel, ...may I ask a question in all humility?

Since Scripture teaches Jesus has given the keys to you also, ...do you preach the Gospel or do you preach your church? 

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:44 AM, Billiards Ball said:

I was in Caesaria Philippi (where this pronouncement was made in Israel) about one week ago. Jesus Christ stood on a large rock to rebuke the literal gate of Hades. I also visited the site where Jesus restored Peter, who betrayed Him.

Verse 25 of the Isaiah passage says the peg will be removed. Rome?

Here is a good description about what you are referring to,

https://www.catholicconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/PegOfIsaiah22.pdf

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19 hours ago, JMJ said:

Here is a good description about what you are referring to,

https://www.catholicconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/PegOfIsaiah22.pdf

Thanks for sharing the content of that post.

I find Roman apologetics incredibly complex, but Paul warns us not to stray from the simplicity found in Jesus Christ.

Simply put, my entire life emphasis is on Jesus Christ, not Peter, who is gone, and on Jesus's atonement, not salvific works of Roman practice.

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Posted (edited)
On 11/23/2018 at 9:27 PM, Concretecamper said:

Yes, the bible is a product of the Catholic Church.

That is so wrong.  The only part of the Bible that is a product of the Catholic Church is all the stuff they added that is not considered as Biblical.  The Bible was written by the end of the 1st Century A.D. and the Catholic Church didn't start making things up until centuries later nor did they even exist at the time.  And I agree with a prior comment that the Roman Catholic Church is a cult because they have added so much to the completed canon that they barely even resemble a Christian organization.  Those who think the the Catholic Church was the first church are simply wrong and should research on your own and not believe a "pope" or any priests whom tell you must confess to God throughout them.  That is a terrible heresy.  I am not trying to offend anyone because the truth is not in question but let's be honest with each other...the cross is offensive in that it demands a response.  God bless all!!

Edited by deartheopolis
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On 5/4/2018 at 7:30 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Now, please my friend, when you reply to this, please stick to just a couple of points per post,

Ok.  

On 5/4/2018 at 7:30 PM, KiwiChristian said:

 

If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married."

Remember that Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

These last words are of key importance, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." As Jesus has clearly given His Church the backing of Heaven's power in everything that they decide.

Furthermore, if the verse is read as requiring an absolute necessity that a Bishop be married, it creates several inconsistencies, if not, blatant contradictions.

First,

a.  Jesus, the Bishop of our faith was never married.  

b.  We are supposed to imitate Jesus.

Second, the Apostles are bishops.  We can prove this by remembering what St. Peter

said when Judas was replaced.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

But there are a couple of Apostles who are not married.  St. John the Evangelist and St. Paul.

Third, picking up on St. Paul.  

a.  He has revealed in Scripture that he is not married, as stated above and since he's an Apostle, he's a Bishop.  Furthermore, he also says:

1 Corinthians 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

And this is actually the basis for the Catholic Teaching. Since the Catholic Church wants priests to be concerned only with doing God's will.

 b.  And, he is the one who appointed both St. Timothy and St. Titus as Bishops.  So, was he contradicting himself?

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 7:30 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text?

Hm?  The footnotes are supposed to supplement or explain the text.  But, I'm not really sure what you're talking about.  Perhaps and example would help.

Well, ok.  I don't want to make this too long.  Perhaps this is enough to begin a conversation.

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On 3/18/2019 at 10:57 AM, De Maria said:

Remember that Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

No, ADDRESS THE VERSE!

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i always thought the scripture was be the husband of but one wife,  which was different from the times where men could have more than one. it didnt mean a minimum of one wife it meant maximum of one wife at a time

 

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