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KiwiChristian

The "catholics gave us the Bible lie"

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Many catholics are arrogant enough to say that THEY "gave" us the Bible.

The catholic organisation mearly defined what IT would use as the Bible, NOT what the Bible was.

 

Long before the council of hippo "gave us the bible", Origen, born A.D. 185 and died A.D. 254, named ALL the books of the Bible in his writings and  Eusebius, 270 A.D., lists ALL of the books of the NT.
 

The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth.
 

It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.

God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today. A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?

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On 5/4/2018 at 8:34 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Many catholics are arrogant enough to say that THEY "gave" us the Bible.

The catholic organisation mearly defined what IT would use as the Bible, NOT what the Bible was.

 

Long before the council of hippo "gave us the bible", Origen, born A.D. 185 and died A.D. 254, named ALL the books of the Bible in his writings and  Eusebius, 270 A.D., lists ALL of the books of the NT.
 

The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth.
 

It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.

God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today. A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?

Thank YOU for your POST.

 REPLY: This discussion needs to separate the OT from the NT as they have different sources.

The OT books had long been part of the Jewish recorded history. The task of the early Catholic Fathers was to determine from the MANY; which books had the most direct and specific adjudication to the story of the Jewish People meeting their One True God.

After much debate and guidance from the Holy Spirit, 46 books were determined to have been “God Breathed” & were chosen BY CATHOLIC Fathers.

The NEW- Testament; with its 27 books were FULLY authored by men known today to have been Catholics; six of who were Apostles.

This is secular history recorded fact; hence my claim is valid.

Long before the council of hippo "gave us the bible", Origen, born A.D. 185 and died A.D. 254, named ALL the books of the Bible in his writings and  Eusebius, 270 A.D., lists ALL of the books of the NT.

I’m not aware of THAT, but it certainly could be true. However I point out both of these esteemed men were CATHOLICS.
 

The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth.
 

OK and?????

It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.

Woops! You’re speaking of the Canon of the Bible; the NT was fully authored BY CATHOLICS by the end of the 1st. Century; or perhaps the VERY early 2nd. Century.  As were the 46 OT books also selected by CATHOLICS.

God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils.

My new friend; YOU simply do not grasp the Power of the Key’s in Mt 16:15-19. Verse 19 give Peter and His Successors UNLIMITED power of Governance as was the NORM for walled in cities such as Jerusalem. This was so COMMON as to be covered under Jewish Laws at that time.

It was the NORM for such cities to have a king {when they were not under Roman rule} and for THAT king to appoint a “Prime Minister” who was charged with handling ALL day to day business, and responsible ONLY to “the king.” … This is the PRECISE model that Christ had in mind for Peter {and successors: READ Mt 10:1-8 & compare it to Mt 28:18-20” … it is notable that none of the other APOSTLES objected to this; as they fully and correctly understood what Jesus HAD just done in Mt 16:15-19.

It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative.

Of COURSE it did and it does! Otherwise the books of Thomas and other such would have crept it with their heresies.  IN ORDER FOR THE BIBLE TO BE A GOD INSPIRED BOOK; IT HAD TO HAVE THE CHURCHES DISCERMENT GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

2 Tim. 3: 16-17 [16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Douay Bible Explanation: [16] "All scripture,": Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it. End Quotes

Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today.

Which my new friend explains why today {after a mere 500 years there are thousands of faith-based {SELF- bible-interpreted Protestant churches; EACH identified by its OWN understanding of the one bible; while the RCC has for 2,000 years the SAME One FAITH.} 

2 Peter 1: [16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," [18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. [19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. [20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, [21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Douay Bible explanation 20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. End Quotes

  2nd Peter 3: 14-18

“Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

 A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?

YOU Can and MUST if you accept that the Bible is a GOD-Inspired WORK…… DO YOU?

And BTW, that Council was Catholic Church Council as the ONLY “Christians” at the time were CATHOLICS.

 

 

 

 

AND PART 2 FROM SAME POSTER SAME DAY

Bottom of Form

 

Posted May 4

If the Bible is a Catholic book, how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).

WOW! A great quote; with Catholic Bishops no less.

The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married."

One of the MOST common misunderstandings of Catholicism rest in the knowledge that in the RCC there are Doctrines & Dogmas that are NOT in their root teachings changeable; and then there are church PRACTICES that ARE changeable. “Marriage” is a Practice NOT a Doctrine.

Furthermore, if the Bible is a Catholic book, why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text?

Fair question I guess????


So why did Matthew Henry and MANY others write Protestant Bible commentaries? 

 

If the Bible is a Catholic book,
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).

1] Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, [2] Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. [3] All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. [5] And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes.

[Douay Bible explanation}: [5] "Phylacteries": that is, parchments, on which they wrote the ten commandments, and carried them on their foreheads before their eyes: which the Pharisees affected to wear broader than other men; so to seem more zealous for the law.

Ahhhh, we don’t NOR does the Bible: READ Exo. 31:10

2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).

WHAT? This is a FIRST; in the past Protestants have charged Marian “WORSHIP

This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAILMARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.

 

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]

Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]

The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]

Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]

And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]

Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]

Mother of God 1:35

Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]

Now and at the hour of our death

Amen” [I BELIEVE!]


3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).

There are two priesthoods: the priesthood {metaphorically speaking here; meaning ALL are to place GOD-first} of the Catholic-people; and the Ordained Priesthood of life-committed service to God.

John.15:[16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.


4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).

Where are YOU coming up with this stuff?????

The RCC has more FEAST days and Special Day’s than ANY other Church except possibly for the Orthodox churches.

5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).

Acts.9:[13] But Anani'as answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; [32] Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda. [41] And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive.

Following the use of the term in the Early Catholic-Church as evidenced above; the term now has TWO definitions: “saints” with a small “s” meaning all the Catholic-believers {in action; not merely in WORDS} that are in the State of God’s Grace; and then the investigated and affirmed {by miracles in their name}; a more recent practice in the Organic RCC; “ Saints” {capitol “S”} Souls known for sure to be in heaven.

6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).

Apparently YOU have never seen the inside or passed a Catholic Church with its Stained Glass Windows.

I suspect you accuse Catholics of being IDOL “worshippers”

Numbers 21: 6-10 “[6] Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. [7] Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. [8] And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. [9] Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed”

 

Exodus 25: “[18] And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [19] Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.” 

HERE WE SEE YAHWEH {GOD} COMMANDING MOSES TO BUILD FOR HIM IDOLS…

So it ought to be evident that it is NOT the image; BUT the intended USE & application of that image that determines its MERIT:

Anything that CAN lead a soul to be closer to GOD =GOOD

Everything that actually competes with God = BAD

Mary and the Saints DO lead Catholics CLOSER to God.

7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).

BOTH are valid and LICT within the RCC

8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).

It doesn’t! When RIGHTLY understood.

Jas.2:[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Mt 23: 9 “ And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ.

Douay Explanation: [9] "Call none your father upon earth"... Neither be ye called masters. The meaning is that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Cor. 4. 23: 15,) and for our masters and teachers. END QUOTES


9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1

Cor. 3:11).

EPH. 2: [19] So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [22] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” NOTE ALL SINGULAR TENSE: one True God, Faith and Church

10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).

We DON”T! Mary and the Saints are INTERCESSORS; NOT mediators. Not the same thing/

11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).

READ it again. “A Bishop must be married ONLY Once” WHICH I EXPLAINED is a changeable practice.

12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).

This passage shows the PRIDE of humanity. They were NOT speaking of the Primacy of Peter; BUT “WHO would be the greatest in Christ heavenly kingdom. This was PRIOR to Pentecost Sunday and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).

We DON”T! 

When a human body dies that Soul is immortal. Where it will spend Eternity depend upon its life choices.

If the human-Soul dies with unremitted / unforgiven MORATL sins { 1John 5: 16-17} it is self-condemned to hell

If a human-Soul dies in the State of God’s grace but is not perfect {due to venial sins or the Temporal Punishment that ALL sins accrue} BECAUSE only truly perfect Souls CAN enter into heaven; then it goes to Purgatory to repay the sin-debt until that soul is made Perfect By suffering.

If a human-Soul dies in the state of Perfection as is God; it attaints Eternal Heaven immediately. {and YES Purgatory is Biblically grounded; a separate topic.}


14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

My friend you asked me to keep this Brief and then ask MANY questions; each requiring a distinct reply.

John 3: 5 demands that ALL Souls Be Baptized {no age discrimination} …So ALL are Baptized regardless of AGE.

Music ADDS to Divine Worship

Confession: We ARE Obeying God: Read please John 20:19-23

The Rosary is Prayers THROUGH Mary to God

The Mass centers around the Most Holy Eucharist: JESUS IN PERSON; by the command of Jesus:

1st. Corm 11: 23-30   [23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.” {“sleep” here means Eternal Hell}

Now, please my friend, when you reply to this, please stick to just a couple of points per post, then it will be easier to respond to, unless you want to make a VERY long post answering ALL these points in one post, hoping that no-one will take the trouble to address your points.

I am always hopeful of a charitable informed, evidenced reply.

In, with and through Christ; Easter Blessings,

Patrick

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The Apostles were NOT catholic.

 

What a pathetic, stupid and ignorant statement.

 

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