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Aryeh

Ginomai

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Here are two passages from the New Testament. In both cases we are dealing with a wrong translation. It is interesting that such a wrong translation, at least in the English and Russian Bible. Who tried so hard?


The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. (Revelation 16:19 –  NASB)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(Revelation 16:19 –  KJV)

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7  –  NASB)

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let,] until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7  –  KJV)

i01.png

Strong – 1096:

ginomai <1096>

Definition:

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

In both cases, Holy Scripture refers to the same event: the birth of the unity of saints in Jesus Christ, the gathering of Christians who left the "Babylon" of Christian religions after the completion of the construction of the Third Temple in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel.

This is the appearance of Heavenly Jerusalem on the land of Israel.

Attention! Here is the corrected translation:

The great city was arise in three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. (Revelation 16:19)

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains so until he  is born out of the midst. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

 

 

 

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On 5/5/2018 at 7:48 AM, Aryeh said:

Here are two passages from the New Testament. In both cases we are dealing with a wrong translation. It is interesting that such a wrong translation, at least in the English and Russian Bible. Who tried so hard?


The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. (Revelation 16:19 –  NASB)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(Revelation 16:19 –  KJV)

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7  –  NASB)

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let,] until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7  –  KJV)

i01.png

Strong – 1096:

ginomai <1096>

Definition:

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

In both cases, Holy Scripture refers to the same event: the birth of the unity of saints in Jesus Christ, the gathering of Christians who left the "Babylon" of Christian religions after the completion of the construction of the Third Temple in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel.

This is the appearance of Heavenly Jerusalem on the land of Israel.

Attention! Here is the corrected translation:

The great city was arise in three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. (Revelation 16:19)

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains so until he  is born out of the midst. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

 

 

 

 

Greetings brother!

This verse looks like it has been not only misunderstood (by me) but mistranslated as well. Behold a new reality:

KJV                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek.  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV                   until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

of events

to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

of men appearing in public

to be made, finished

of miracles, to be performed, wrought

to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle

the midst

in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

“only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way”, is mistranslated as it takes no help from the context. 2 Thess 2:3-8 concerns the conditions that must occur before the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect, allaying the fears of the church. The coming fulfillment of the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin are in fact withholding the 2nd coming so then only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way,  is an oddity jammed into this section of revealed truth. If we adhere to the Greek and continue in the same context as Paul this fragment should read a bit differently, e.g. “Simply endure for now until he rises in the middle.” or, “Merely holdfast for now until he appears to the world from in the midst.” Maybe, “Wait until the coming into being in the middle,” is better.  Or perhaps even better might be the idea that the withholding will continue until apostasia is complete and the man of sin is revealed, becoming or coming into being; manifesting to the world from right in between, or the middle, or in the midst of.

Since this entire passage is about the delaying of the coming of Jesus, and the gathering of the elect, and why there is a delay, and what causes that delay, it makes sense there should be a mention of when that delay will end and what that will look like. Only after this ‘coming into being in the midst’ “shall that Wicked be revealed,” I see this as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel and the words of Jesus when speaking of the last week and the A of D. Paul is saying exactly what Jesus and Daniel combined are telling us; The beast is revealed in the middle of the week at the A of D and great tribulation begins;  after that Jesus will return and gather the elect.

Diaste

 

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12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

You are very close in my opinion, brother. Your translation of "emerge" is good. I prefer "manifest," but either communicates the same point. We differ on "what withholds," as I think that is poorly translated as well. But I will withhold that unless it is something you want to hear.

So when did you come to see "emerge" as proper interpretation?  

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32 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

Greetings brother!

This verse looks like it has been not only misunderstood (by me) but mistranslated as well. Behold a new reality:

KJV                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek.  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV                   until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

of events

to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

of men appearing in public

to be made, finished

of miracles, to be performed, wrought

to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle

the midst

in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

“only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way”, is mistranslated as it takes no help from the context. 2 Thess 2:3-8 concerns the conditions that must occur before the 2nd coming and the gathering of the elect, allaying the fears of the church. The coming fulfillment of the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin are in fact withholding the 2nd coming so then only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way,  is an oddity jammed into this section of revealed truth. If we adhere to the Greek and continue in the same context as Paul this fragment should read a bit differently, e.g. “Simply endure for now until he rises in the middle.” or, “Merely holdfast for now until he appears to the world from in the midst.” Maybe, “Wait until the coming into being in the middle,” is better.  Or perhaps even better might be the idea that the withholding will continue until apostasia is complete and the man of sin is revealed, becoming or coming into being; manifesting to the world from right in between, or the middle, or in the midst of.

Since this entire passage is about the delaying of the coming of Jesus, and the gathering of the elect, and why there is a delay, and what causes that delay, it makes sense there should be a mention of when that delay will end and what that will look like. Only after this ‘coming into being in the midst’ “shall that Wicked be revealed,” I see this as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel and the words of Jesus when speaking of the last week and the A of D. Paul is saying exactly what Jesus and Daniel combined are telling us; The beast is revealed in the middle of the week at the A of D and great tribulation begins;  after that Jesus will return and gather the elect.

Diaste

 

Interesting view to consider.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The beast is revealed in the middle of the week at the A of D and great tribulation begins;  after that Jesus will return and gather the elect.

Previous translations of the word have made a negative meaning in relation to the subject, which was discussed:  "split", "taken out". The reader could conclude that there was talk about Babylon (Revelation 16:19), or about the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

Actually, in Revelation 16:19, it is written about about the appearance of the Heavenly Jerusalem in three places at once: in the former city of Jerusalem, in the new Messianic Temple (which must be built not in Jerusalem, but in the Judean desert, in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel) and the City of Yahweh Shamah.

udel.jpg

This appearance of Heavenly Jerusalem is not a split, on the contrary, it shows the world our unity in Jesus Christ.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2: 7, there it is written about the same thing: the birth of our unity in Jesus Christ makes "the mystery of lawlessness" manifest for all. That is, that part of the Christian religion, which was not true to God, but served the evil of this world, will be exposed and will fail.

And therefore we should not wait for any antichrist to build the Third Temple in Jerusalem, sit there and then be killed by the unexpected appearance of Jesus Christ. The Antichrist will never build the Third Temple in Jerusalem, because the devil does not want to be convicted. The present world with sleeping Christianity, which itself is compelled to work on the world system created by the devil, fully satisfies the devil.

On the contrary, today we must build the Messianic Temple in accordance with the prophesy of Ezekiel, in order to designate the meeting place of the "elect from the four winds." The place indicated by the prophecy of Ezekiel is located in the Judean Desert, it is a nature reserve, about 30 km south of Jerusalem. After this Messianic Temple is built, the messengers of all churches that remain faithful to Jesus Christ must enter the Eastern Gate within 10 days of the sanctification of the altar, from 1 to 10 Tishrei. 

 After a few years, when the Jewish people decide on their choice and traditional Judaism (the "Euphrates River" in Revelation) will no longer resist the Gospel, we will get permission to build a big city. Then the victory of Jesus Christ will be realized in all this world.

That is, today we must start our part in the game, we must build the Temple in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel, we start the game and win. It all depends on us, not on the devil, who supposedly must build a temple for himself. The temple in which the devil tries to sit secretly is Christianity, and when the saints are gathered in one place, then a man of sin will appear at the opposite end.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aryeh

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2 hours ago, Hidden In Him said:

You are very close in my opinion, brother. Your translation of "emerge" is good. I prefer "manifest," but either communicates the same point. We differ on "what withholds," as I think that is poorly translated as well. But I will withhold that unless it is something you want to hear.

So when did you come to see "emerge" as proper interpretation?  

Brother,

I would be happy to hear anything on the subject. My ears are open these days, especially so as I see the beginning of the end approaching. 

I was doing a bunch of research, mostly just listening to scholars and preachers on different topics, and came across a person that was talking about that verse in 2 Thess 2. It's nothing I really paid much attention to as I think the concepts of 2 Thess 2:17 are repeated elsewhere and I was already convinced. But when he mentioned these ideas about v 7 I thought he was crazy. "That has to be wrong.", I thought. Well, I got the Koine Greek out, went to Biblehub for the Strong's, and started parsing. It's "emerge from out of the middle" or, "manifest in the midst" if you prefer. How the original got to be 'he that now letteth will let till he be taken out of the way' I can't imagine.

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On 5/6/2018 at 1:06 PM, Diaste said:

It's "emerge from out of the middle" or, "manifest in the midst" if you prefer. How the original got to be 'he that now letteth will let till he be taken out of the way' I can't imagine.

It's probably the most difficult passage in the NT to translate because of the use of κατέχον in verse 6 and then again in verse 7.

But emerge is excellent, and if you want my interpretation on the entire passage, the translation should read as follows, with κατέχον highlighted and underlined both times:

"Do you not remember that when I was with you I was telling you these things? And you know it yet remains for him to be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already on its way to realization, only he is holding back at present until he manifests (or emerges) out of the midst, and then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy with the breath of His mouth and depose with the brightness of His coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:5-8)

In verse 6 it is neuter, and refers to the report or prophecy about the Antichrist coming, as referred to in Matthew and Daniel. If you look up Liddell-Scott, the verb is occasionally used in the sense of "the report prevails" that such and such is happening or will happen, and this fits with the neuter usage in verse 6 perfectly.

In verse 7 it is masculine, and refers to the Antichrist himself, who would emerge out of the midst of the Roman empire as the one prophesied to fulfill the prophecy. Caligula came very close to fulfilling the prophesies concerning the Antichrist and even wanted to have a massive statue of himself in the form of Zues transported to Jerusalem and erected there, only he didn't succeed. But this is what made the apostles believe it was only a matter of time before an emperor arose who would fulfill the prophecy because relations between the Jews and the Romans were only getting worse, and indeed it would only be another 15 years or so from the time of Paul's writing 2nd Thessalonians before Jerusalem would be conquered.

This is why Paul stated that "the mystery of lawlessness is already on its way to realization, only he is holding back at present until he emerges out of the midst..."

I know this differs from what you currently accept about other aspects of the passage, and how tough it can be to have to rethink a passage through in some instances. But this is the way I interpret the passage, and it very much holds weight, not only with the actual grammar being used but with the history of what was going on at the time as well.

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Posted (edited)

This passage of scripture is a forecast of Israel in the coming tribulation period and not about Rome

Satan's antichrist will come out of the abyss where he went after the end of the rule of Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35]  

The scriptures lead into a future time giving what will take place during the 70th week decreed for Israel [Daniel 11:36-45] [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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On 5/6/2018 at 1:06 PM, Diaste said:

Brother,

I would be happy to hear anything on the subject. My ears are open these days, especially so as I see the beginning of the end approaching. 

Oops! LoL. I was checking back to see if you responded, and realized I highlighted the wrong word in translation. I has been corrected now, and reads:

On 5/6/2018 at 1:57 PM, Hidden In Him said:

"Do you not remember that when I was with you I was telling you these things? And you know it yet remains for him to be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already on its way to realization, only he is holding back at present until he manifests (or emerges) out of the midst, and then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy with the breath of His mouth and depose with the brightness of His coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:5-8)

The second usage of κατέχον I translate as "holding back."

Sorry if I confused you, brother.

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:05 PM, Hidden In Him said:

"Do you not remember that when I was with you I was telling you these things? And you know it yet remains for him to be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already on its way to realization, only he is holding back at present until he manifests (or emerges) out of the midst, and then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy with the breath of His mouth and depose with the brightness of His coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:5-8)

So what leads you to use 'remains' in verse 6? Though I think it's as good as any if the idea is that the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin are the precursors to the coming of the Lord Jesus. Verse 6 would read, "And now you know it yet remains for Jesus to be revealed in His own time." That's good.

Doesn't Paul actually reveal timing here? Not only timing, but order? Isn't the idea to convey assurance as well? If the thesis is the coming of Jesus and the gathering, and a proof is, "...except there is apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin...", then it follows v 5-6 iterates 1-3 concisely; as in, "I told you this before, but now you know these two events must happen first before Jesus is revealed at the right time." So then the conclusion follows this line precisely.

Then in the strictest sense of the original v 7 as an exhortation falls in line with context and intent; "Merely, for the present time, hold on tight until the beast rises in the midst of the week." As I said before, v 7 seems to look to the A of D through 'ginomai ek mesos', so 'katecho' then should be considered as a 'hold' and not 'left to occur', e.g. Paul has told the Thessalonians the coming of Jesus and the gathering cannot happen until the apostasy and the rise of the beast occurs first.  In their earnest the Thessalonians are fearful they missed the gathering due to false reports the day of the Lord is in full swing. Paul addresses this saying, "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way,", and then finishes with the exhortation in v 7, "For the present time stand firm until the beast rises." 

I don't think this means Paul is saying we should stand firm to the midpoint and then fall apart. He's saying to stand firm in the face of false reports and opposition until the beast rises when no one can deny the order of things or when the day of the Lord is going to take place.

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