There is NO power in faith.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, brothers and sisters.

This may come as a shock to some, but it really shouldn't take anyone by surprise or cause any consternation. The power doesn't exist in our faith! The power is in the One in Whom we PLACE our faith! That's a VERY important distinction!

Faith is often misunderstood because of the difference between how the Greek text used the word "pistis" and how we use the words "faith" and "belief" in English today. There's a notable difference, but the bottom line is that the power of our faith is GOD'S power. It's to be found in the God of the Bible, YHWH, in Whom we place our faith and in Whom we trust! ALL wothwhile and lasting power is to be found in Him, and we do NOT exercise that power at all when we SAY we "exercise faith!"

Our God is an AWESOME GOD! Just look at all the things He has made from the tiniest neutrino, quark, or "string" to the vastness of space with the myriads of galaxies, quasars, and nebulae, not to mention the HUGE volumes of empty space! In between these extremes, we see the vast complexity of what we can know as living things, from the tiniest viruses, to the huge whales, from the smallest plankton to the huge redwoods of the forest! When one studies biology and biochemistry and organic chemistry, one will come away with a DEEP appreciation for the intricate ways that ALL of God's creations work together flawlessly to form this vast biosphere in which we live.

The fascinating way that the information that describes each species in stored in the DeoxyriboNucleic Acid (DNA) of that species, and how the body of that creature uses this coded information to develop organs, tissues, and fluids is truly amazing! The sheer complexity of any one species and then to compound that with the symbiosis of other life forms is just BEYOND normal comprehension!

BRAG ON HIM! (That's what "praise" is.) Make Him STAND OUT from anyone or anything else! (That's what "glorify" is.) BOW THE KNEE before Him! (That's what "worship" is.) And, after all you've done to make Him as AWESOME as you can (and STILL He's greater), both in your eyes and the eyes of anyone to whom you're talking, then realize that you can come to Him and call Him "Daddy!" (That's what "Abba" means.) If that doesn't make your head swim, then you didn't do it right! Try again!

Let's say you ask Him for something - anything. Do you really doubt that He could do it for you or give it to you, if He wanted to? The MAKER OF THE UNIVERSE couldn't do your silly little request? Nope. THAT'S not it.

What you REALLY doubt is whether such an AWESOME AND RIGHTEOUS God would do it for the likes of YOU! And, you'd be RIGHT to doubt, IF ... YHWH was an exacting God.

Psalm 130:3-6 (KJV)

3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.

David said and Paul quoted,

Romans 4:1-25 (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (Psalm 32:1)

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Psalm 32:2)

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And, Yeshua` (Jesus) said,

Matthew 7:7-11 (KJV)

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

And,

Luke 12:22-32 (KJV)

22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. 
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? 26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? 27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[Eddy Crocker]

Romans 12:3 

³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We are given all a measure of faith. That faith is given because of our unbelief. We must have something to give in order for it to bring us to faith itself which is a person. It’s said of Jesus in...,

Hebrews 12:2 

² looking unto Jesus, the ^[a]author and ^[b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Now we have a measure of faith to give unto faith itself. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith. So this means our faith must be finished so that we are no longer are proceeding to faith but we are proceeding from and out of faith. 

Proceeding towards faith shows us you don’t have that reality otherwise if you had the reality of faith then it would be a flowing out of faith and out of it as living out from faith as a person. The person is living his life through and out of your life as his very own life expressed. 

Hebrews 11:1 

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

True faith is the very substance of the things that are not seen 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Retrobyter and Eddy Crocker,

I have addressed my answer also to Eddy as he has resuscitated a 2 year old thread and I am not sure if Retrobyter is still active, but I am only going to add a brief comment on the OP.

On 5/6/2018 at 10:48 AM, Retrobyter said:

This may come as a shock to some, but it really shouldn't take anyone by surprise or cause any consternation. The power doesn't exist in our faith! The power is in the One in Whom we PLACE our faith! That's a VERY important distinction!

Romans 1:16–17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:16 seems to indicate that it is the Gospel that is the power of God. I could be wrong here, but I have previously considered the concept of “power” as being in the sense of motivating power. When we have an affectionate belief of the Gospel that has been preached, then we motivated to repent, to be baptised in identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus, from then on live the resurrected life, and patiently wait for the return of Jesus to raise and reward the faithful and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. Yes, the power is derived from God, but part of the process is faith that leads to salvation.

Kind regards

Trevor

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Retrobyter and Eddy Crocker,

I have addressed my answer also to Eddy as he has resuscitated a 2 year old thread and I am not sure if Retrobyter is still active, but I am only going to add a brief comment on the OP.

 

Romans 1:16–17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

Romans 1:16 seems to indicate that it is the Gospel that is the power of God. I could be wrong here, but I have previously considered the concept of “power” as being in the sense of motivating power. When we have an affectionate belief of the Gospel that has been preached, then we motivated to repent, to be baptised in identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus, from then on live the resurrected life, and patiently wait for the return of Jesus to raise and reward the faithful and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. Yes, the power is derived from God, but part of the process is faith that leads to salvation.

 

Kind regards

 

Trevor

 

Shalom, Trevor.

And, thank you for quoting me in part. I hadn't learned to "follow" my own topic, yet; so, I only got notifications when someone quoted a post I made. Yep, I'm still here, but I typically post in the prophecy forum.

You're not wrong, but sometimes the terms we use are not as clear as they should be. The "gospel of Christ," for instance, is "Christ's gospel" or rather "the Messiah's gospel." (The Greek genitive case shows possession.) He heralded ("preached") the gospel of the kingdom. And, if we take it down a notch more, "gospel," simply meaning "good news," makes this the "Messiah's good news of the kingdom."

Paul gave us a good hint of what he thought this "good news" was about when he quoted Isaiah 52:7 in Romans 10:15:

He said,

Romans 10:14-15 (KJV)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (a herald or town cryer)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

The full verse of Isaiah 52:7 is...

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

And, this isn't just some "reigning in our hearts" nonsense, either! He is talking about YHWH God reigning as He once did in the congregation of the children of Israel as they were making their way to the Promised Land, the Land promised to Avraham for his descendants and heirs, called the "children of Israel!"

The "salvation" being published isn't about our personal justification by God. It's talking about the "deliverance" or the "rescue" of His people, Israel, bringing them back to the Land!

So, let's look at Romans 1:16-17 again in this light:

16 For I'm not ashamed of the Messiah's good news (of the kingdom): for the Messiah's good news of the kingdom is God's power unto rescue or deliverance to every one who trusts (God); to the Jew first (naturally), but also to the Greek! 17 For therein is God's righteousness revealed from trusting (a little) to TRUSTING (A LOT): as it is written,

"The just (or justified) shall live by trusting (God)."

I'm not very good with trying to get others to see things from a different light, but I hope that you can see the difference between how people usually read these verses and how they should be applied. Have a great day!

[Retrobyter]

On 4/25/2020 at 10:31 PM, Eddy Crocker said:

Romans 12:3 

³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We are given all a measure of faith. That faith is given because of our unbelief. We must have something to give in order for it to bring us to faith itself which is a person. It’s said of Jesus in...,

Hebrews 12:2 

² looking unto Jesus, the ^[a]author and ^[b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Now we have a measure of faith to give unto faith itself. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith. So this means our faith must be finished so that we are no longer are proceeding to faith but we are proceeding from and out of faith. 

Proceeding towards faith shows us you don’t have that reality otherwise if you had the reality of faith then it would be a flowing out of faith and out of it as living out from faith as a person. The person is living his life through and out of your life as his very own life expressed. 

Hebrews 11:1 

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

True faith is the very substance of the things that are not seen 

Shalom, Eddy Crocker.

I would suggest that you take some time and DEFINE "faith." Look it up on BibleHub.com for the Greek word and look up that Greek word in Strong's.

Throwing three verses out simply because they contain the word "faith" is insufficient.

[OneLight]

Yes, it is God who does all, but without faith in God, nothing will happen, so though faith itself is not the one doing the action, faith is a crucial part.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Retrobyter,

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're not wrong, but sometimes the terms we use are not as clear as they should be. The "gospel of Christ," for instance, is "Christ's gospel" or rather "the Messiah's gospel." (The Greek genitive case shows possession.) He heralded ("preached") the gospel of the kingdom. And, if we take it down a notch more, "gospel," simply meaning "good news," makes this the "Messiah's good news of the kingdom."

Not sure if you are making a distinction here, but see below.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "salvation" being published isn't about our personal justification by God. It's talking about the "deliverance" or the "rescue" of His people, Israel, bringing them back to the Land!

So, let's look at Romans 1:16-17 again in this light:

16 For I'm not ashamed of the Messiah's good news (of the kingdom): for the Messiah's good news of the kingdom is God's power unto rescue or deliverance to every one who trusts (God); to the Jew first (naturally), but also to the Greek! 17 For therein is God's righteousness revealed from trusting (a little) to TRUSTING (A LOT): as it is written,

"The just (or justified) shall live by trusting (God)."

I'm not very good with trying to get others to see things from a different light, but I hope that you can see the difference between how people usually read these verses and how they should be applied. Have a great day!

I believe that the One Gospel, with expanded details as time progressed, for example the addition of the promises to Abraham and David, and the death and resurrection of Jesus, has been preached from Eden, and by Jesus and the Apostles, both to Jews and Gentiles. Romans 1:16-17 is an introduction to the theme of the Book of Romans, and also Romans 1:1-4 also introduces this One Gospel. One summary of this One Gospel is “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”, and both Philip and Paul preached this to the Samaritans, Jews and Gentiles:

Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 28:23–24,28-31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Kind regards

Trevor

[Paul James]

It is the "name it and claim" Faith movement that uses faith as a force in itself to achieve an outcome.  Their view is that if we believe hard enough, God will do what we want.  These are the people who claim guaranteed healing, and when someone doesn't get healed they say it is a lack of faith in the sick person.  If that is true then when John Wesley's horse got healed of lameness along with John's headache when John prayed, then it is wonderful that the horse had faith to be healed!  

In my view, using faith as a force in itself is a type of Hindu mind-control and puts the power into the individual instead of in God.  If one can get what he needs and wants through personal faith and effort through believing, then why need God at all?

No, using faith as mind-control is sorcery - a type of witchcraft, using occult positive thinking and pagan mind-control.

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

There is NO power in faith.

The power is in hearing the voice of Jesus and comply with what He said for us to do.