Who of the Church are with Jesus Pre-Trib?

[Larry 2]

17 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Larry, what do you mean by "Trib"? Are you referring to the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution) that begins in the middle of the week? Or are you referring to what men have come to call "the tribulation period", that being the seventieth week?

Great questions Brother Steve. I'll attempt to qualify my responses using scripture, or suggestions of examples. With my thought of pre-trib I'm thinking of those of Philadelphia that were told that they would be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world which is the first 3 1/2 years of the week if they faithfully keep God's word. The anti-Christ or beast will have made a covent with many for a week of years, but will not have made war with the saints until the second half of the week know as the great tribulation , or Jacob's trouble.

You mention the first part of the week as being the seventieth week of Daniel, and I belive that the seventieth week of Daniel ended after the time the Christians had all things in common, and Stephen was stoned. Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. There will be another week of Daniel according to Dan 9:27.
 

38 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The real question is, have any of them (those from before the church) been glorified? And if so, when and how?

I personally see those of the Old Testament as not a part of the Church (the body of Christ), but when Jesus died, He first descended, preached to them in Abraham's bosom (the righteous of the Old Testament) kept there as in a prison as it were until Jesus died and paid the price of heaven becoming open to them. Jesus called that place paradise as He spoke to the thief and told him that this day we die together as it were, you will be with Me in paradise (Lk 23:43). Where did Jesus go? Eph 4:9.  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? In 2Co 12:4 refers to: How that he was caught up into paradise where the Old Testament remain today.

 

40 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Is it possible that the order of resurrections given by Paul refers to the resurrection of Old Testament saints as the first-fruits, following Christ's resurrection, and not only to Christ as many suppose?

We see the firstfruits of Israel unto God and the Lamb as the last rank of believers to be caught up in Rev 14:4, these are the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel sealed according to Rev 7:4. Now when we say first fruits, do not forget that all Israel shall be saved subsequent to this in Rom 11:26.

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. (the five wise virgins?) These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits (of Israel) unto God and to the Lamb. 
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 

I hope this gives a bit of perspective to what we call the rapture. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Good morning Diaste. The reason I posted this is to bring attention to Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. the 24 elders and the four beasts or living ones.

This is not original with me,  but I also believe the 24 elders to be those of the church of Smyrna we read of in Rev 2:10. . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These would be those dead of 1 Thes 4:16 that rise first, and in Rev 4:4 they are said to have on their heads crowns of gold.

Next I bring forth the 4 beasts, or what are also called the 4 living ones in some bibles we read of in Rev 4:6. They are told that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they faitfully keep the word of God in Rev 3:10, to try them that dwell upon the earth. These are those alive when Jesus comes in the air for them according to 1 Thes 4:17, and notice in Rev 3:11 that they are also said to have a crown.

Of seven portions of the churches in different locations which make up the one body of Christ, there are only two commended,  and said to have crowns. The remaining five locations of the one body of Christ are told to repent such as we read of concerning the church in Ephesus in Rev 2:5.  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick (church)out of his place (you started off first, and now may be third or whatever?), except thou repent. In other words you started off good, but in Rev 2:4 we see they had left thy first love in Rev 2:4. (They were no longer putting Jesus first?)

Important? In Rev 6:1 with the first of the seals opened, we see one of the living ones even working in conjunction with Jesus. Were they glorified? Eze 1:5  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man, and in Eze 1:14  And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 

There's more but I hate to get too lenghty in one post. Blessings in Christ Jesus.
 

Greetings!

I appreciate the reply. Love the discussion! 

One thing I hear repeated in ubiquitous fashion concerning scriptural prophecy is, "I believe that...." Are we sure this is the acid test? Is what we personally believe the standard? A friend of mine oft utters, "It's not super terrible." implying whatever we are discussing is okay. Is this how far we have wandered? As long as it's not super terrible it's acceptable?

Another troubling concept is the use of doubt as an argument to glean truth. You give an example above, "Were they glorified?" Maybe they were. Maybe they weren't. Who? Doubt enters in either way. Now instead of assurance we experience equivocation. This form of argument really does nothing but muddy the waters. It's not a pall, but it does nip at the heels and I find such things unreasonable and unproductive.

That established, what makes you think gold crowns are ONLY for a particular group? Lots of notable types wear gold crowns, on terra and in the heavens. Is that the only evidence equating the elders with the body of Christ? There has to be more facts than just the one. 

I think your system is scuttled during the launch, e.g., "I also believe the 24 elders to be those of the church of Smyrna we read of in Rev 2:10. . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These would be those dead of 1 Thes 4:16 that rise first, and in Rev 4:4 they are said to have on their heads crowns of gold."

Well, in Rev 2:10 Jesus says, "...crown of life." In Rev 4:4, "...crowns of gold." It's possible that crowns of life are of gold, but that's not what the scripture says. In fact the Greek term means 'that which surrounds', it could be an aura. Literally Rev 2:10 says, "...I will surround you with life." Rev 3:11 is not specific to material either. It's a crown, 'stephanos', that which surrounds, and is a much or more the honor associated with victory, rather than a literal crown, though it could be a crown, or a laurel, or a wreath.

 

Strong's Concordance

stephanos: that which surrounds, i.e. a crown

Original Word: στέφανος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stephanos
Phonetic Spelling: (stef'-an-os)
Short Definition: a crown, garland
Definition: a crown, garland, honor, glory

"Next I bring forth the 4 beasts, or what are also called the 4 living ones in some bibles we read of in Rev 4:6. They are told that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they faitfully keep the word of God in Rev 3:10, to try them that dwell upon the earth. These are those alive when Jesus comes in the air for them according to 1 Thes 4:17, and notice in Rev 3:11 that they are also said to have a crown."

Pardon me, but the above quote is disjointed. Are you just musing? I see the thesis but what train chugged to the conclusion? I see no facts linking the groups above. It's logically untenable until factual argument are offered.

As for the rest, I don't get it. Did I miss the point?

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Great questions Brother Steve. I'll attempt to qualify my responses using scripture, or suggestions of examples. With my thought of pre-trib I'm thinking of those of Philadelphia that were told that they would be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world which is the first 3 1/2 years of the week if they faithfully keep God's word. The anti-Christ or beast will have made a covent with many for a week of years, but will not have made war with the saints until the second half of the week know as the great tribulation , or Jacob's trouble.

You mention the first part of the week as being the seventieth week of Daniel, and I belive that the seventieth week of Daniel ended after the time the Christians had all things in common, and Stephen was stoned. Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. There will be another week of Daniel according to Dan 9:27.
 

I personally see those of the Old Testament as not a part of the Church (the body of Christ), but when Jesus died, He first descended, preached to them in Abraham's bosom (the righteous of the Old Testament) kept there as in a prison as it were until Jesus died and paid the price of heaven becoming open to them. Jesus called that place paradise as He spoke to the thief and told him that this day we die together as it were, you will be with Me in paradise (Lk 23:43). Where did Jesus go? Eph 4:9.  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? In 2Co 12:4 refers to: How that he was caught up into paradise where the Old Testament remain today.

 

We see the firstfruits of Israel unto God and the Lamb as the last rank of believers to be caught up in Rev 14:4, these are the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel sealed according to Rev 7:4. Now when we say first fruits, do not forget that all Israel shall be saved subsequent to this in Rom 11:26.

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. (the five wise virgins?) These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits (of Israel) unto God and to the Lamb. 
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 

I hope this gives a bit of perspective to what we call the rapture. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Larry, concerning tribulation, Jesus told us that the saints (believers, the church, the elect) will face tribulation (John 16:33). The Greek word is thlipsis which means pressure, it is also translated persecution and affliction. Persecution has been our (the church's) experience since the church began. Furthermore, Jesus said that there is coming a time when that persecution will increase in scope and intensity so that it will be unprecedented. This He called "great tribulation" (Matt 24:21, 15). Daniel also spoke of this time and called it an unprecedented "time of trouble"(Dan 12:1). Jeremiah called it "Jacob's trouble" (Jer 30:7). This unprecedented persecution will be focused upon the church (the elect) and Israel. The elect are said to be persecuted for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9). Rev 12 records that, in the middle of the week, the dragon (Satan) will go after the woman (a remnant of Israel) and those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (church). Satan does this "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Rev 12:12). This great persecution is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God, that comes later in the day of the Lord. Jesus marks the beginning of this great persecution as the middle of the week by referencing Dan 9:27 (Matt 24:15, 21).

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

"This unprecedented persecution will be focused upon the church (the elect) and Israel. The elect are said to be persecuted for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9). Rev 12 records that, in the middle of the week, the dragon (Satan) will go after the woman (a remnant of Israel) and those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (church)"

 

Revelation 12 speaks nothing about the "church', but about Israel in the tribulation period

[Steve Conley]

7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"This unprecedented persecution will be focused upon the church (the elect) and Israel. The elect are said to be persecuted for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9). Rev 12 records that, in the middle of the week, the dragon (Satan) will go after the woman (a remnant of Israel) and those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (church)"

 

Revelation 12 speaks nothing about the "church', but about Israel in the tribulation period

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, you're at it again with the same old tired rhetoric that was born at the same time your "secret rapture" (pretribulationism) was, about 200 years ago.

The church began on the day of Pentecost the year that Christ died for our sins. Initially the church was made up of Jews who responded to the preaching of the Apostles. The Apostles where prepared to be part of the foundation of the church by Christ. After His resurrection He charged them to make disciples and teach those disciples all that they had been taught by Him. He said that He would be with them even unto the end of the world (age). The church would be responsible to fulfill that great commission until the end of the world (aeon=age). The same week that the Lord told the disciples "I will come again and receive you unto myself" they asked Him, "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world (aeon)." The disciples who were the founding members of the church were told the signs that would precede the end of the world (aeon). They understood that the coming (parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ effectively ends the aeon. In answer to "what is the sign..." they were told that there would be unprecedented persecution upon the saints for Christ's name sake. Jesus said that this great tribulation upon the last generation of the church (elect) would begin when the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week. He also warned again and again that there would be great deception and that many would be offended and fall away. This is the same thing Paul, to the church of the Thessalonians, said would precede "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him." Paul was addressing the church with the same info that Jesus did. The elect of Matt 24 are those who have believed upon Jesus Christ unto salvation before Christ's coming (parousia). "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17) are these same elect (the church).

Rev 12 is parenthetical to the precise chronology of the book of Revelation. It presents the age old struggle of the Dragon (Satan) against the purposes of God from the days of Adam until Satan's binding. After Israel was declared to be the line through whom the promised seed of the woman would come, Satan began to focus his attacks upon them. Satan did all He could to destroy Christ when He came the first time, but He was caught up to the Fathers throne. Since that time He has focused upon the Church and Israel. In the future, in the middle of the week, the Dragon will be cast from Heaven to the earth, and his disposition will be one of "having great wrath". When he goes after Israel, a remnant will be hid, fed, and protected in the wilderness by God. It is at that time that Satan's wrath is focused upon the rest of Israel and the church.

Jesus tells us that this unprecedented persecution will be so violent that if He didn't cut it short that no believer would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). All will be made to take the mark, without which no man may buy nor sell. If one refuses to worship the Beast, he will be decapitated. Believers will hunger, thirst, starve, and be exposed to the elements. We will be hated of all nations and all men for Christ's sake. However, true believers are more than overcomers. We will overcome Satan and the Beast by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony and we will not love our lives unto death. Yet some of us will endure to the end. Therefore these, being alive and remaining unto the coming of the Lord, when they witness the great earthquake and the cosmic signs their/our eyes will be fixed upon the sky, looking for the Saviour in all His glory with the Holy Angels. For he said that at that time our redemption would be nigh.

Get right while you still have opportunity to help those you love.

Hallelujah

Edited May 19, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Daniel 11:36]

It is at that time that Satan's wrath is focused upon the rest of Israel and the church.

 

Revelation 12 tells nothing about the church .... it is all about Israel, past and future 

You are a false teacher son

Edited May 19, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Larry 2]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Did I miss the point?

Either that, or I'm not teaching very well. Would you say that any in heaven at the time was a glorified saint, and that prior to the tribulation.

I read in Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass . .

Were these things revealed to be a rehashing of things past from Rev 4:1 on? Who are His servants at that time? The Church? Anyhow, thanks anyway for your reply.

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

It is at that time that Satan's wrath is focused upon the rest of Israel and the church.

 

Revelation 12 tells nothing about the church .... it is all about Israel, past and future 

You are a false teacher son

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Pops, I quote Scripture, and you make unsupported assertions. It is you who stands against the teachings of Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles. You are the type of teacher that Paul warned the later day church would heap to themselves. Do your smooth words tickle their ears? That is what you are, an ear tickler.

Repent

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

"Pops, I quote Scripture, and you make unsupported assertions"

 

You are the one who makes unsupported assertions son

[JoeChan82]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:13 AM, Larry 2 said:

You mention the first part of the week as being the seventieth week of Daniel, and I belive that the seventieth week of Daniel ended after the time the Christians had all things in common, and Stephen was stoned. Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. There will be another week of Daniel according to Dan 9:27.

This is new to me. I have never heard of another week of Daniel.