Isaiah 9:6-7

[Mark Loga]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, 

I would like to know the revelation hidden in these two verses from any one who has carefully studied these two verses from the Hebrew texts.  If you haven't done the reserch you may kindly suggest me some useful links where I can do my own research. The best explanation so far I found is Gill's Exposition.

I understand these two verses reveal the process that the Christ, the Son of God passing through from the eternity past to the eternity future. 

Grace be with you.

[angels4u]

On 5/17/2018 at 1:41 AM, Mark Loga said:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, 

I would like to know the revelation hidden in these two verses from any one who has carefully studied these two verses from the Hebrew texts.  If you haven't done the reserch you may kindly suggest me some useful links where I can do my own research. The best explanation so far I found is Gill's Exposition.

I understand these two verses reveal the process that the Christ, the Son of God passing through from the eternity past to the eternity future. 

Grace be with you.

Hello Mark,

Here's a link to a verse good explanation from those 2 verses.

I hope this helps?

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/222435-his-kingdom-foretold-isaiah-96-7-skip-heitzig/

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/17/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Loga said:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, 

I would like to know the revelation hidden in these two verses from any one who has carefully studied these two verses from the Hebrew texts.  If you haven't done the reserch you may kindly suggest me some useful links where I can do my own research. The best explanation so far I found is Gill's Exposition.

I understand these two verses reveal the process that the Christ, the Son of God passing through from the eternity past to the eternity future. 

Grace be with you.

Shalom, Mark Loga.

You may not like my answer, but I guarantee that you will not hear these verses presented this way by any other Christian.

Let's get back to the Hebrew: 

First, one should know that two nouns back to back are in a state called a "noun construct state." This implies the word "of" added between their translations. For instance, "ben Daviyd" means "son (of) David." In verse 6 we have a LIST of nouns that are thrown together, back to back, with adjectives as well. 

Here's the Hebrew:

 

Yeesha`yahuw 9:6-7 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

6 Kiy-yeled yullad-laanuw been nittan-laanuw vathiy hammishraah `al-shikhmow vayyiqraa' shmow pele' yow`eets Eel gibowr avid`ad sar-shaalowm:
7 Lmarbeeh hammishraah uwlshaalowm eeyn-qeets `al-qicee' Daavid v`al-mamlakhtow lhaakhiyn otaah uwlca`adaah bmishpaT uwVitsdaaqaah mee`ataah v`ad `owlaam qin'at YHWH tsVaa'owt ta`aseh-zo't:

6 Kiy- = 6 For-
yeled = a-boy
yullad- = is-born
laanuw = to-us
been = a-son
nittan- = is-given
laanuw = to-us
vathiy = and-shall-be
hammishraah = the-government
`al- = upon
shikhmow = his-shoulder
vayyiqraa' = and-shall-be-called
shmow = his-name
pele' = a-wonder
yow`eets = counseling
Eel = of-God
gibowr = Mighty
avid`ad = our (my)-Father-perpetual
sar- = a-prince/winner
shaalowm: = of-peace:
7 Lmarbeeh = 7 To-[the]-increase
hammishraah = of-the-government
uwlshaalowm = and-to-peace
eeyn- = [there-shall-be]-no
qeets = end
`al- = upon
qicee' = [the]-throne
Daavid = of-David
v`al = and-over
maamlakhtow = his-kingdom
lhaakhiyn = to-order
otaah = it
uwlca`adaah = and-to-establish-it
bmishpaT = in-judgment
uwVitsdaaqaah = and-in-righteousness
mee`ataah = from-that-time-forward
v`ad = and-perpetual
`owlaam = ages
qin'at = [the]-zeal
YHWH = of-YHWH
tsVaa'owt = of-armies
ta`aseh- = will-perform
zo't: = this:

Stringing this together directly into English, we get:

6 For-a-boy is-born to-us, a-son is-given to-us and-shall-be the-government upon his-shoulder and-shall-be-called his-name a-wonder counseling of-God Mighty our (my)-Father-perpetual, a-prince/winner of-peace:
7 To-[the]-increase of-the-government and-to-peace [there-shall-be]-no end; upon [the]-throne of-David and-over his-kingdom to-order it and-to-establish-it in-judgment and-in-righteousness from-that-time-forward and-perpetual ages; [the]-zeal of-YHWH of-armies will-perform this:

Rearranging them into an English syntax, we get:

6 For a boy is born to us, a son is given to us, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called "a counseling wonder of Mighty God my perpetual Father, a winner of peace":
7 There shall be no end for the increase of the government and for peace; (he will sit) upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to set it in order and to establish it in judgment and in righteousness from that time forward [into] perpetual ages; the zeal of YHWH of armies will perform this:

Hope this will help.

[Speks]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...you will not hear these verses presented this way by any other Christian.

That's quite a statement! True originality is as rare as hen's teeth.

Don't you think by claiming this, your unique minority stance would make most people understandably wary of your opinions?

By the way, have you read the notes on these verses in the NET Bible? With your interest in Hebrew they may be worth looking at.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Speks

[Billiards Ball]

On 5/17/2018 at 12:41 AM, Mark Loga said:

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, 

I would like to know the revelation hidden in these two verses from any one who has carefully studied these two verses from the Hebrew texts.  If you haven't done the reserch you may kindly suggest me some useful links where I can do my own research. The best explanation so far I found is Gill's Exposition.

I understand these two verses reveal the process that the Christ, the Son of God passing through from the eternity past to the eternity future. 

Grace be with you.

Even a cursory reading shows this is a prophecy about Jesus. My Jewish brethren love to say it's about King Hezekiah, who is of course not an ETERNAL Father, was of David but not born in Bethlehem, was a wartime King who did not reign over peace, etc.

[JohnD]

Perhaps the overall context of scripture will add light to the precise text you wish to study.

There are times when the actual words used are the most direct point. "I am God and there is no other," for example.

Then there are times when expressions and idioms are used to convey truth "I would spread my wings over thee as a hen her chicks but you were unwilling."

In either case, the overall context of scripture (under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, of course) determines how literal or how metaphoric a passage is. 

What I find most are puzzled by in the target passage is how Jesus could be called the everlasting Father. ← This would appear to support Sabellianism / Modalism (which briefly stated is Jesus is all three persons in the Godhead in different modes or phases).

We must determine how Jesus could be A father of any kind in scripture to answer the charge Modalists would make.

Jesus (preincarnate) is the Father of creation.

All passages about the creation of heaven and earth point to Jesus (God the Word) in John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2...

And that he did it alone / by himself:

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)

24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,

I am the LORD that maketh all things;

that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;

that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

Now the Father and the Spirit were there (1 John 1:1-2 and Genesis 1:1-2) in coexistence since John 1:1-2

makes it clear God the Word was WITH God.

 

But God the Word acted alone by himself in creation in the beginning.

 

This places the following interpretation on these verses:

Genesis 1:1 (AV)
1 In the beginning God [the Word] created the heaven and the earth.

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God [the Word] .

And places a much different answer to the question put to us that most think:

Proverbs 30:4 (AV)
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

Answer: Adam (Luke 3:38).

Jesus is a whole 'nuther creation than the human race he created. 

Hebrews 10:5–7 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 1:1–5 (AV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Creator of the universe and eternity was made a man (John 1:14a) while never ceasing to be God (Philippians 2:6 in the Greek "morphe theos huparchon") by the Father (John 1:14b) which in fact states he is the ONLY begotten of the Father (i.e. the only creation of the Father).

This presents a problem for the so-called Apostle's creed which states that God the Father created heaven and earth...

And it gives us greater insight into the incarnation itself.

In his Spirit, God the Word who is equal to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit

John 5:18 (AV)
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6 (AV)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

And his human body was created by the Father. He did not create his own body as he had created Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam 1 = prototype of the human race which fell

Adam 2 = prototype of the human race (population: Jesus) which did not fall.

If Adam 2 were a son of Adam 1 he would have the fallen sin nature of Adam 1.

Mary was the gestational surrogate of Jesus.  And it was done in this way (rather than making Adam 2 full grown from the dust of the ground as Adam 1 was created) so that Jesus would be the legal heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

   

[JohnD]

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Not a worldly Government, but one from Heaven.

Galatians 4:21–31 (AV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

What God desired in Exodus 19:6 and did not get until the cross is that all his people are a kingdom of priests. Exodus 32 is what shattered Exodus 19:6 for the remainder of the Old Covenant and is why the tribe of Levi became the priestly tribe. 

One thing (under the topic of another OP what pastors will not tell you) is that the entire body of Christ is a kingdom of priests.

We are priests of God each and every one of us (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:3-9)... because (I believe) they are ignorant of the fact. They are conditioned / programmed by the traditions of man that infest the denominations and the seminaries. Most people will not listen to preachers / teachers who have not been through those processes. Sadly.

Rarely did the Holy Spirit go through those channels. Jeremiah alone comes to my mind. And one of the minor prophets, I believe.

But people today are reliving what the people did in the Old Testament (even to the point of being Pharisees etc) ironically with the complete Bible in hand.

In the past God's revelation was ongoing. Today we have no excuse. And quite often I hear the smug statement, I wouldn't be like they were in the old Testament..." balderdash!

Edited October 25, 2020 by JohnD

[Billiards Ball]

Work on concision.

[Billiards Ball]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

Part of the problem here is the question itself because two verses cannot be properly understood apart from their surrounding text, nor the scriptures as a whole (which would include all that preceded the prophesy, beginning at Genesis 1:1). Another part of the problem is that your request isn't very specific. Many books have been written on.... 

• The child born and given,
• The government resting on that child (who became an adult), 
• His various names, each of which has Theological, soteriological, ecclesiological, and eschatological significance, 
• The infinite nature and increase of his government,
• The nature and infinite nature of his peace,
• The just and righteous attributes,
• The efficacy of his zeal. 

Not even Gill covered all that. So clarify your inquiry. What in particular interests or concerns you about these two verses?

 

Yes and no? Millions recognize 9:6-7 as a clear prophecy of Jesus Christ.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

The Holy Spirit spoke through Joshua to Moses; Exodus 33:11

Moses then asks "I beseech thee, show me thy glory!" Exodus 33:18

In Exodus 33:19 through 34:8 Moses experiences the Father more directly.

And then Moses asks: "Oh Lord, go among us.. and pardon our sins" Exodus 34:9

 

In Numbers 11:25-29 the Spirit speaks through others, and Joshua gets jealous,

and Moses says to Joshua:

"are you jealous for my sake?

Would God that all the Lords people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!"

 

The person and work of Joshua of Nazareth fulfilled those two requests of Moses.

God went among us, in Christ, and pardoned our sins.  [2 Corinthians 5:19, 1 Tim 3:16]

And via the death and resurrection of Christ the Holy Spirit of God was shed into the whole world. [Luke 23:46, Acts 2:38]

All of the Lords people, because of the work of Christ, have His Spirit inside of them, [Romans 8:9]

and all of the Lords people prophesy about the return of Christ. [Revelation 19:10]

 

-------

 

Believe in the Lord your God [the Father], so shall ye be established 2 Chronicles 20:20

 

If you will not believe, surely you will not be established... Isaiah 7:9

therefore behold, the Lord Himself will give you a sign, Isaiah 7:14

a woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name God with us.