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Da Puppers

What events need to happen to prove that pretrib is wrong?

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This is not an attempt prove that pretrib is wrong,  in the present sense of things.   Historically speaking,  nothing has happened to prove that pretrib is wrong.   Because of a belief in imminency,  no event is necessary for the rapture to take place,  in the mind and theology of pretrib.   But,  scripturally speaking,  there are events that will take place "AFTER" the rapture takes place.   

This thread is not designed to be a debate between who is right and who is not.   I would like to hear from pre-tribbers,  [no matter how confidant you think that you are right]  to discuss what event/ events would need to take place before you would be willing to admit you are wrong.   Again,  donut view this as an admission to being wrong,  just what would it take to change your mind.   In thinking about this,  those who are the most confident in their view [as a pre-tribber] ought to be the most willing to respond,  because they "know" that they are right.   Those with lesser confidence, might actually be less willing to respond,   BECAUSE,  they are probably less astute at knowing the scriptures,  and might be more inclined to simply "adjust" their theology to accommodate prophetic events taking place. 

Non - pre-tribbers,  on the other hand,  ought to work at telling pre-tribbers,  beforehand,  what will and shall take place BEFORE the rapture and/or ADVENT of Jesus takes place.   The apostle Paul said that "prophesying edifies THE CHURCH(those that believe) ".   Here is your chance,  non-pretribbers, to edify the body of Christ,  or else prove yourself unworthy of rightly dividing the word of truth.   There are most certainly,  some teachings out there that will prove,  [with time] that will prove the tenets of non -pretribbers, also to be wrong.   That can come later,  [probably sooner than most would recognize or believe], but for now,  I don't want to look that far down the road., i.e. 3.5 or up to 7 years down the road.   I am wanting to bring unity,  not division.   If it takes 3.5 years or more before a pretrib view can be proven wrong,  of what value is that?   The sooner,  (the greater amount of time)  the better.   I have seen very little progress in bringing the body of Christ together in this matter.   Declaring one another wrong,  only serves to being division and strife.   Jesus said that unity among believers makes our message more potent to the unbelievers. 

*[[Joh 17:21]] KJV* That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I will give my "2" cents worth to get things started.   Two events that should create doubt in a pre-tribbers theology.   Maybe they are of value but maybe not.   

1.  The resumption of sacrifices on temple mount,  BEFORE the temple is rebuilt.  This is what took place as found in the book of Ezra.   I would even add that,  they will begin,  likewise,  on the 1st day of Tishri. 

2.  Rebuilding and completion of the temple ought to spur many pre-tribbers (and even some post-tribbers)  to rethink their positions. 

My personal views on these events taking place,  will, i feel, hasten the accelerated rise of false prophets.    I don't feel like we have experienced any confirmable evidence of the endtimes,  but current events are unconfirmable stepping stones to the endtimes.  [All things work together...].Tell me what you think. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I would like to hear from pre-tribbers,  [no matter how confidant you think that you are right]  to discuss what event/ events would need to take place before you would be willing to admit you are wrong. 

I'm not a pretribber but I'd like to say that there's an inherent risk in trusting in eschatology for guidance, regardless of which [fill in the blank] trib a person subscribes to.  Some are very adamant about how their view is the correct one, as you state, and the risk comes in when they allow their perception of correctness to be a substitute for preparedness.  This is why I prioritize being ready.  Being ready isn't about eschatological correctness.  It has everything to do with worshiping God in spirit and truth.  If a person isn't engaged in that kind of a lifestyle, the accuracy of their eschatology is irrelevant because they're going to fail.  Spiritual discernment is what will be required in order for us to persevere in the faith, and that comes from being doers of the word, not from prognostication, regardless of how correct we think we are.

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not a pretribber but I'd like to say that there's an inherent risk in trusting in eschatology for guidance, regardless of which [fill in the blank] trib a person subscribes to.  Some are very adamant about how their view is the correct one, as you state, and the risk comes in when they allow their perception of correctness to be a substitute for preparedness.  This is why I prioritize being ready.  Being ready isn't about eschatological correctness.  It has everything to do with worshiping God in spirit and truth.  If a person isn't engaged in that kind of a lifestyle, the accuracy of their eschatology is irrelevant because they're going to fail.  Spiritual discernment is what will be required in order for us to persevere in the faith, and that comes from being doers of the word, not from prognostication, regardless of how correct we think we are.

I think i hear you saying that readiness is synonymous with preparedness.   If that is true,  would you then equate the foolish virgins as not being ready?   Before you answer that particular question,  Jesus told us to WATCH and he told us to be READY.   Watch & Be ready!   Two different things.   The morale of the 10 virgins parable is to watch. 

*[[Mat 25:13]] KJV* WATCH therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.  

The "therefore" is there for what Jesus just said in the parable.   I think that there are a lot of Christians who don't know the difference between watching and being ready: 

*[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

*[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

*[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I think these words tell us is that there are things,  particular things that Christians need to be watching for.   I.e., the rapture is not an imminent event.   Certain things have to happen first.   I would contend that most pre-tribbers are not "watching" for his return.   I am not saying that they are not Christian.   But something needs to happen to change their minds about his return being imminent. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I think i hear you saying that readiness is synonymous with preparedness.   If that is true,  would you then equate the foolish virgins as not being ready?   Before you answer that particular question,  Jesus told us to WATCH and he told us to be READY.   Watch & Be ready!   Two different things.   The morale of the 10 virgins parable is to watch. 

*[[Mat 25:13]] KJV* WATCH therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.  

The "therefore" is there for what Jesus just said in the parable.   I think that there are a lot of Christians who don't know the difference between watching and being ready: 

*[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

*[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

*[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I think these words tell us is that there are things,  particular things that Christians need to be watching for.   I.e., the rapture is not an imminent event.   Certain things have to happen first.   I would contend that most pre-tribbers are not "watching" for his return.   I am not saying that they are not Christian.   But something needs to happen to change their minds about his return being imminent. 

Blessings

The PuP 

I don't discount the importance of watching.  Jesus said, "Behold, I've told you in advance."  There is merit in understanding the signs and watching for them or He wouldn't have given them to us.  However, if our lives are built on the sand, what value is it for us to be able to recognize the coming storm?

8 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

The morale of the 10 virgins parable is to watch.

I have to disagree here.  The five wise virgins brought oil along with their lamps.  They were prepared.

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My two cents for what it's worth. Christs church will be raptured before the tribulation as Scripture clearly teaches;

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

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What events need to happen to prove that pretrib is wrong?

 

read your bible.  thats all, and dont cherry pick scriptures and evaluate everything.  a good example is the all famous revelation 3:10 where it says keep you from the hour of temptation... and a pretribber says ohh that means we wont be here.  but it does not actually say that.  and then compare to rev 2:10 where this church will have some member cast into prison, and be tried 10 days... and it says ye shall have tribulation.  it even says be thou faithful unto death and receive a crown.  sounds like non-raptured tribulous activities to me. 

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Matthew 24 is about Israel in the coming tribulation period .... these things will take place just after the rapture

There is nothing stated about the rapture in Matthew 24 

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16 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I don't discount the importance of watching.  Jesus said, "Behold, I've told you in advance."  There is merit in understanding the signs and watching for them or He wouldn't have given them to us.  However, if our lives are built on the sand, what value is it for us to be able to recognize the coming storm?

I have to disagree here.  The five wise virgins brought oil along with their lamps.  They were prepared.

I think that you missed my point.   I didn't say that they were not ready/ prepared, and I didn't say that that was the moral of the parable.  The moral was to watch, not to be ready.  I agree that they were ready.  But what,  and what not were they ready for?  Watching and being ready are two different things.   They were not ready for the transpiration of events that did take place.   A unique part of the 10 virgins parable is the use of wise ones and foolish ones.   This is found in similar fashion in Matt 7, with the wise and foolish builders.   

There we find that the wise and foolish equates to walking in the commandments of the LORD.   Walking in righteousness,  versus walking in iniquity (knowing what is right but not doing it).  So with that being said,  I am not sure that you are able to distinguish between watching and being ready. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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13 minutes ago, Cletus said:

What events need to happen to prove that pretrib is wrong?

 

read your bible.  thats all, and dont cherry pick scriptures and evaluate everything.  a good example is the all famous revelation 3:10 where it says keep you from the hour of temptation... and a pretribber says ohh that means we wont be here.  but it does not actually say that.  and then compare to rev 2:10 where this church will have some member cast into prison, and be tried 10 days... and it says ye shall have tribulation.  it even says be thou faithful unto death and receive a crown.  sounds like non-raptured tribulous activities to me. 

I am asking those from the non - pretrib camp to share with the other side,  what event, not a scripture per se, from a post fulfilment view,  should convince a pre-tribber that he was wrong.   expounding of the scriptures seems to be most futile in determining who is right in the present day.   I just want to what event would you point to , in prophetic advance,  that would open the eyes of someone,  after the fact. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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14 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is about Israel in the coming tribulation period .... these things will take place just after the rapture

There is nothing stated about the rapture in Matthew 24 

Daniel, 

Being that you feel so confident about your belief in a pretrib rapture,  you should have no qualms about telling us about something that will happen, with great confidence,  that you or I will not be here to see it take place.   If there are no events that are prophesied to take place before the rapture is to occur,  then share with me a scripture that is written down,  that can only take place after the rapture.   I would rather you put a chronological preference to its timing.   In other words,  sequentially,  what would be one of the first events that would take place,  (in your scheme of understanding)  after the rapture? 

Blessings

The PuP 

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