This is why I am here, how about you?

[Guest shiloh357]

18 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

If you were forced out of your house 

But Israel didn't do any of that.   In fact, Israel's human rights record is far, far better than any of the surrounding Muslim countries.  In fact, Muslim countries have some of the worst human rights records in the world. 

Israel never forced the Palestinians out of their homes.   The Arabs did that prior to the 1948 war of independence.   If you bothered to study history, it was the Arabs, in preparation to destroy the fledgling Israeli nation, who told the Arabs living among the Jews to leave the area in advance of the planned Arab invasion go to the West Bank and Gaza.  The plan was for them to return to their homes after the war was over.   Israel petitioned the Palestinians to remain their home and offered them citizenship in Israel if they stayed in their homes. 

But Israel won the war.   God's hand was on Israel and against the Muslims  and God gave Israel the victory over a 6-nation alliance of Arab nations and the Palestinians were not allowed by the Arabs to return, although Israel offered to repatriate them. 

THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:  

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."    - David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".  - by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

"The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."  - Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."   - Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades." - The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."   - Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."  - Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".   - Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25

The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.  - Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.  - Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.   - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.   - Habib

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."  - from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa."" - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz

"...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."  The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948

"...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country." - The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."  - Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]

"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."  - bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957

One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.- Commentary Magazine -- January 2000, http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0001/letters.html  

 

https://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Refugees.php

 

Historically, it has been the UN that has blocked repatriation of the original Palestinians to their homes.   The refugee status was maintained as a means of gaining propaganda points  Israel.  Had Israel successfully repatriated those Arabs back into Israel, they would not have been effective pawns for the Arab governments who wanted them to remain refugees in their smear campaign against Israel.

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and those who did this to you took away your basic human rights, I highly doubt you would find the experience enjoyable. You would want to do something to get your home and rights back wouldn't you? 

Israel is the only nation to recognize and improve the basic human rights of the Palestinians.  The Palestinians who are citizens in Israel are not languishing; they are prospering.  They are allowed to own businesses, allowed full access to Israel's judiciary and have been successful in the judiciary having won 45% of the cases brought against them by fellow Jewish citizens.   All of the Muslim holy sites are protected by Israel.   Israel prosecutes and imprisons Jews who commit atrocities against Palestinians. 

Palestinian refugees, who are not citizens,  still enjoy a number of freedoms they would not have in any Muslim country.  They even enjoy free universal healthcare courtesy of the Israeli tax payer.  

Where the problems for the Palestinians begin is their ongoing plan to destroy Israel and foster terrorism against the Israelis.  That is why most of their problems are self-inflicted.    Critics of Israel fail to take into account that the Palestinians are not trying to take their homes back; they are part of a bigger Arab war of attrition meant to facilitate the destruction of Israel. 

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Since that happened decades ago, let's say your mother and father were the ones who were originally forced out of their homes and have been living in tenement housing since then. If you walked home from school one day to find your housing complex in ruin from an Israeli airstrike, and the bodies of your mother and father lying dead among the ruin along with your baby sister, I highly doubt you would find the experience enjoyable. 

But the problem is with the kind of narrative you are promoting ignores a lot of context.   It would be like trying to explain the US presence in Afghanistan without mentioning 9/11.   That's the problem with Israel's critics.  They want to condemn Israel's actions while omitting the Islamic terrorism that precipitated Israel's actions.   Innocent people always die in war.   Israel does what it can to minimize civilian casualties, but when you are fighting with Muslim terrorists, you are not fighting an honorable enemy.

What your above scenario fails to account for is that the terrorists intentionally put civilians in harm's way.  They fire their rockets from civilian location, next to and inside civilian neighborhoods.   They don't engage Israel in the field of battle, but they hide behind women and children in order to ramp up the civilian casualty rates.   That's why someone might return home and find their parents dead.   They are dead because their leaders intentionally got them killed in order to ramp up the propaganda points in the evening news.

You appeal solely to emition; I appeal to what is actually happening on the ground and the reality that the terrorists are willing sacrifice innocent civilians in their goal to destroy Israel.  The media and the terrorist sympathizers like you ignore the actual context of terrorism.

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Since you have no rights, or few at best, throwing rocks may be your only option to avenge the deaths of your family. If a militant group had better options such as crude rockets or explosives, wouldn't it be tempting to go to them and carry out an attack against those who wronged you? If you no longer had a home and family and your future looked bleak, you may even be willing to strap explosives to yourself and blow up people from the other side out of anger and desperation.  

So now we have you defending terrorism against the Jews.   Again, this is an emotional appeal rooted in a false narrative that has no basis in the reality of what is going on, on the ground.  

And it ignores the fact that Israel has in good faith, over the last seven decades, made incredible concessions for peace, only to repaid in bloodshed.   It ignores the fact that it is the terrorists who are the aggressors, and that Israel enacts the same defensive countermeasures that any nation would undertake were it facing an enemy that seeks its destruction.

Your post fails to take into account the Arab goal of Israel's destruction, and the fact that Palestinians are raised to hate Jews, raised to be terrorists.  They are turning to terrorism out of revenge.   They are raised and bred to be terrorists, raised to kill Jews simply because Jews exist.   The Palestinian charter has only always been about the destruction of Israel.  

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The bitterness, hate, and discontent already existed in places like Gaza and the West Bank, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah came in and exploited it. 

No, they are continuing what has always been from the days of Yasir Arafat.    There has been an ongoing goal to destroy Israel and the Palestinians are just the 5th column of a greater Arab war against Israel's existence.   This conflict is more about the 21 Arab nations and their goal to destroy Israel, than anything else.  The Arabs are the ones who created the refugee crisis as I have shown above.   Israel did not make anyone into refugees.  It is not up to Israel to end a refugee crisis they did not create. 

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Chances are if you or I were born in Gaza or the West Bank we would also be throwing stones and/or protesting against the Israeli occupation today.  I thank God that I was born in a country like the United States and I didn't have to suffer as the Palestinians have been doing for decades.  

I thank God that are Christians who think clearer, who are more informed than "Christians"  like you, who support Israel and recognize that Israel is a direct fulfillment of biblical prophecy.   We stand against you and your wicked support for terrorism.  That is anathema.

Edited May 23, 2018 by shiloh357

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, jamesdyson said:

The map I produced made no reference to a land call "Israel" and your response agreed. And instead of producing and ancient map of "Israel" to refute my claim you sidetracked by referencing Palestine. I made no claim or mention of Palestine but you did. So here is Palestina; before the Zion invasion and after the land thefts---. 

No, that map is incorrect.   First of all, Palestine included what is the current nation of Jordan.   Palestine was not a nation, and so  no land was stolen from the Arabs.  In fat, what your map shows is land that was distributed by the international community, not Israel.  It was the British that took 75% of Palestine and gave it to the Arabs to be come Trans-Jordan, now simply known as the Kingdom of Jordan.  The British divided the remaining 25% between the Palestinians and the Jews.  So the reduction in land for the Palestinians was not because of a land grab, but the direct result of the British mandate.

There were three attempts to create a Palestinian nation in 20th century:  1935, 1947, and 2000.  Israel agreed to each plan.  The Arabs rejected each plan.  In fact, the Jews supported the 1936 plan that would have given more land the Palestinians than to the Jews.  

[Guest shiloh357]

9 hours ago, jamesdyson said:

Make as many false claims as you like; I could care less. I don't believe in folklore; I believe in real facts & you and your others have failed to provide any; nada; zip

I and others HAVE provided facts in posts that you chose to ignore.  And for the record, the Old Testament is not "folklore."

9 hours ago, jamesdyson said:

Historically the Israelite people were peaceful Shepard's. Then they moved to Egypt where Moses carries out the "first" murder. It was down hill from there and now modern day Israeli's have resorted to "terrorism" (they were the first to use this practice) & the outright murder of children to further their unjust cause. This is what they must ask God for forgiveness for. If not, in my opinion they are doomed.

Moses did commit murder, but not terrorism and modern Israel has never engaged in terror as a people or a government.   Individual Israelis have committed atrocities, but they were punished by Israel and many serve life sentences, only because Israel does not have the death the penalty.   However, murder and terrorism are government policy and are praised by Muslims, like yourself and Badjao.

Both of you are nothing more than Muslim apologists on here to support terrorism and hate.

9 hours ago, jamesdyson said:

Ezekiel

25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26 Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31 And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32 You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

They are doomed unless they repent & ask the Lord for forgivess

I give the Israeli's a 2% chance of doing so

The one who needs to repent and get saved is YOU.   You need to obey the Gospel and give up your Islamic religion and become a true Christian.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

"I have chosen Abraham, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him." Genesis 18:19 

If the promises made to Abraham and his descendants are to be validated, then his descendants must also keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice.  Since the nation of Israel has shown many times over that this is not possible, God offered an new covenant where all of Israel can inherit the promises made to Abraham through faith. 

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.  Romans 8:21-26

The New Covenant doesn't cancel out the Abrahamic Covenant.   The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional.   Gen. 18: 19 isn't putting conditions on the promises made in Genesis 15.   It is referring to their obedience in terms of the enjoyment of those promises. 

The Old Covenant is the Mosaic, not Abrahamic Covenant.

[Guest shiloh357]

25 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

God gave the descendants of Abraham many opportunities to dwell in the physical land promised to them, but the Israelites always failed to keep God's statutes and his commandments. This is where Jesus,  a new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem come into the picture.

None of that cancels God's promises to Abraham.   

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

English translations of the Bible are far from perfect.

You don't seem to have a problem with them so long as they are criticizing Israel and you can use those translations to project your Jew-hatred on to God.  But the promises that prove God's faithfulness to Israel are suddenly suspect and faulty in translation and must mean something else.   You have a selective approach to which parts of the Bible truly mean exactly what they say.

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It comes down to what the subject being discussed is as to how the individual word is to be properly translated. 

And yet you completely ignore that rule when it suits you.

As for the word "olam" in the verse you quoted, I will try to explain the difference in how it is used there.

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There are two basic categories of existence: physical and spiritual. Anything that is physical requires a beginning and anything that is spiritual can have no beginning or end. Anything that is spiritual can't have its origin in the physical world because the physical world can only produce and contain physical things. In contrast, things in the spiritual realm must be eternal, without a beginning or an end, because spirituality is an essential part of God's being. 

God IS spirit. 

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth.  John 4:24

Therefore, we know that the term "Olam/forever"  used in the verse you quoted means to be without beginning or end, ever enduring, and never ceasing. Here is the verse you quoted again:

"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

This verse says that the "word of our God" stands forever. We know from the Bible that the Word of our God is referring to Jesus/Holy Spirit, so in your example it means that the Word of God (Holy Spirit) has no beginning or end. Once again, only God (Spirit) can have no beginning and no end. 

When God created man, He created us in His image, with His spirit. We have something inside of our temporary physical body that is a part of God which has no beginning and no end. Only those who accept Christ can have life eternal in the presence of the Lord, the kind that never had a beginning and never has an end. 

So as you can see, when the word forever or eternal applies to God, it means to be without beginning or end and when we talk about eternal life, it is the life of God and with God.

God kept His promise to the Israelites and they can still to this day dwell in the New Jerusalem if they choose to repent and accept Christ as their Lord and Savoir.  

 

Anyone with any commonsense and basic knowledge  of biblical prophecy knows that "olam"  when applied to earthly events only means "forever" with respect to this earth, as long as it exists.  There will be NO Israel in the New Heavens and New Earth.   All of the national identities we know today will not exist at that time.    So God's promises cannot be fulfilled to Israel at that time.   They have to be fulfilled in this day and time, in the current earth. 

"Olam" depending on context can be hyperbole and it can simply mean for a limited period of time.   But God is not unable to communicate what He means to us, accurately.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Exo 31:16-17)

God uses three terms: "throughout their generations, "perpetual covenant"  and "between me and the Children of Israel forever."    So in context, "olam" is modified by the other two terms, in case there is any misunderstanding.  So in that context, the Jewish people are still supposed to keep the Sabbath and honor it  as a "perpetual (forever) covenant as long as their people still exist

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"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

This verse says that the "word of our God" stands forever. We know from the Bible that the Word of our God is referring to Jesus/Holy Spirit, so in your example it means that the Word of God (Holy Spirit) has no beginning or end. Once again, only God (Spirit) can have no beginning and no end. 

 

Wrong.  The Hebrew word for "word"  in this verse is  "u-d'var" and it refers only to speech, decrees,  and more the point, the revelations given to the prophets.   It does not refer to Jesus as used in this context in Isaiah 40.    The fact is that you have to try and skew meaning because if the prophetic revelation of the prophets is "word of the Lord"  as referenced here, then it provides an incredible problem for you in trying to negate the blessings promised to Israel.   So naturally, you have to manufacture a different meaning while ignore the context that modifies the meaning of "d'var."

Promises made to biblical Israel, to restore her to her land will stand forever.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

And none of God's promises failed. They were all fulfilled in Christ. 

 

No, they have not all been fulfilled in Christ.   There several promises that have not come to pass that cannot be "fulfilled in Christ."   In fact, the Bible makes no such claim.  That is just another lie from you.

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Abraham had faith and this is all that was required of him to receive the promises. Today we can also receive the same promises through faith. 

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.  Hebrews 11:8-10,13-6

While the physical land was important to Israel in the past, it was always about a spiritual land; a New Jerusalem. 

 

The problem is that you are taking redemptive promises to Christians and trying to apply them to the prophetic revelation and the earthly promises made to biblical Israel. 

[Guest shiloh357]

18 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Already in the eyes of God there is no separation or preference of people based on physical, racial or ethnic lines. God shows no partiality. 

For there is no partiality with God  (Romans 2:11)

This  is not an issue about partiality.   It is an issue of the faithfulness of God to His promises.   He has made promises to biblical Israel and God does not renege on His promises.    God is honors His promises.

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"’Behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke..’”. (Jeremiah 31:31)

Under this new covenant it is by grace, both Jew and non-Jew can come into the new Israel of God through faith.

 

There is no such thing as a "new Israel."  That is something you are making up.  The Bible knows of only one Israel.   The concept of a "new Israel"  is something  that anti-Semites make up in order to give their Jew-hatred the illusion of having a theological platform.  It's similar to how the Nazi theologians managed to twist Scripture to give Hitler a biblical basis for the "Final Solution."

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"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)

All believers are Abraham's offspring through His "seed" Jesus Christ, They are the heirs according to promise.

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

 

Galatians has nothing to do with being Israel.   Abraham wasn't a Jew.  Abraham was a Gentile and was saved as a Gentile.   Paul is combatting the heresy of the Judaizers that claimed that the Gentiles had to convert to the Jewish religion in addition to faith in Jesus.   Paul was not trying to define who Israel is.   He is saying that faith in Jesus makes us all the spiritual descendants of faithful Abraham who was not a Jew or an Israelite.  The identity of Israel is not even on the radar in the book of Galatians.

 

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The earlier worldly Israel no longer exists since the cross, Jesus' resurrection, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That is not true: 

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. (Jer 31:35-37)

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. (Amo 9:14-15)

Well, last I checked the sun, moon and stars are still up there, so Israel is still God's people and He has not cast them off or rejected them.   And Amos tells us that God will restore them to the Land and they will never be uprooted again, which doesn't apply to 70 AD.  So this current restoration is the last one and they will not be removed.   We are living in the last days and the promises is in process of fulfillment.

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“Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that ONLY THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH ARE SONS OF ABRAHAM. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.” (Galatians 3:6-9)

“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly (BORN AS A JEW), nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh (FOLLOWS THE LAW); but he is a Jew who is one inwardly (THROUGH FAITH); and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

 

Again, being a son of Abraham is not being an Israelite.  Those are not interchangeable concepts in the Bible.  All Christians are spiritual sons of Abraham, but they are not Israelites, as "Israel" is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile believers.

Romans 2:28-29 is part of a larger context where Paul is using the ancient Grec0-Roman rhetorical tool of an imaginary interlocuter who in that particular chapter is a Jewish interlocuter.  It was a common rhetorical tool used to anticipate the responses of your opponents and respond to their objections in advance.  Paul is responding to the objections he anticipates from the Jews to His remarks in chapters two and three and in 2: 28-29 is explaining to his Jewish opponent what it means to be truly Jewish.   He is not saying that Gentiles believers are inwardly Jewish through faith.  That would contradict his argument

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“For they are not all Israel who are of Israel (NOT ALL JEWS ARE CITIZENS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL), nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham (DIRECT DESCENDANTS); but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh (PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS), these are NOT the children of God; BUT the children of the promise (THOSE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT BOUND BY FAITH) are counted as the seed.” (Romans 9:6-8)

 

Dr. Michael Vlach notes: 

 

"As Murray has noted, (14) Rom 9:6 is teaching that “there is an ‘Israel’ within ethnic Israel.”14 Paul is not saying that believing Gentiles are now part of Israel. Instead, believing Jews are the true Israel. Sanday and Headlam state, “But St. Paul does not mean here to distinguish a spiritual Israel (i.e. the Christian Church) from the fleshly Israel, but to state that the promises made to Israel might be fulfilled even if some of his descendants were shut out from them. What he states is that not all the physical descendants of Jacob are necessarily inheritors of the Divine promises implied in the sacred name Israel.”(15) Thus, Rom 9:6 offers no support for the supersessionist view."

 

Vlach, Michael. Has the Church Replaced Israel (pp. 144-145). B&H Publishing Group., 2009.  Kindle Edition,

 

14. J. Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1959; repr., 1997), 2:9. 15.

 

15. W. Sanday and A. C. Headlam, The Epistle to the Romans, ICC (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1923), 240. See also D. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996), 574. About Rom 9:6, Gutbrod writes, “We are not told here that Gentile Christians are the true Israel. The distinction at R. 9:6 does not go beyond what is presupposed at Jn. 1:47.” W. Gutbrod, “‘ κ. τ. λ.” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. G. Kittel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965), 3:387.

 

Vlach, Michael. Has the Church Replaced Israel (p. 164)B&H Publishing Group. 2009. Kindle Edition.

 

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Therefore, under the new covenant:

“know that ONLY THOSE WHO ARE OF FAITH are sons of Abraham. (THE NATION OF ISRAEL)” (Galatians 3:7)

 

No, you are wrong and you are adding to the Word of God by parenthetically defining "sons of Abraham" in a manner that the Bible does not.   

 

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The current state of Israel that was established in 1948 lacks this faith so they can not possibly be the nation of Israel that the prophets and the Bible speak of.

They may lack the faith, but God is still faithful to them because that who is God.   And it is the nation of Israel because God defines them as Israel and speaks of their restoration to the Land before the bodily return of Jesus to the earth.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

 

Issac (The father of Jacob) was born when Abraham was 100. Jacob was born when Issac was 60 years old. Jacob's name was changed to Israel when he was about 97 years old. The covenant was made with Abraham and all of his descendants.  In addition, Judea (The Jews) are only one of the twelve tribes of Israel which makes them 1/12th heirs to the promise of the old covenant. In the book of Joshua we can see that the land was to be divided and shared among each tribe according to its size.

The Land promises were made to the ethnic descendants of Abraham, which includes the Jews.   

The Land will be redistributed to the 12 tribes per Ezekiel 48.    God's hand is still on them and he keeping His promise to them and it will be fulfilled during the Millennium.

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Paul understood the concept of the nation of Israel at that time. 

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.  (Romans 9:6-8)

 

That does not apply to Gentiles. 

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Through Christ there is no longer jew nor gentile, we are all heirs to the promise.

 

But that promise is not the Land.  It is a specific promise that is redemptive in nature and Paul defines that in the light of Gen. 22: 16-18: "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen 22:16-18)
 

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The nation of Israel has always been about a nation of people bound together by faith in God. 

That does not apply to the Church.  The Church is not Israel and is never called Israel in the New Testament.   You have provided NO evidence in the form of any direct statement from Christian that ever refers to Israel and the Church interchangeably.   You have to rely on  redefining key terms and adding your own personal definitions in parentheses in order to spin the Bible just to have a response.   The fact is that you have nothing from the Bible to support your claims.   The 71 times "Israel" is mentioned in the New Testament, none of them refer to anyone other than ethnic Israel.

 

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There have been people in every generation for the past 2,000 years has believed this way.

Yep, even Peter.   So I am in good company.

 

 

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Your theology leads you and others who believe as you do to support and defend oppression and persecution instead of loving your neighbor and it is resulting in the persecution of our brothers and sisters in Christ who currently live under the Israeli occupation.

No, that is wrong on every count.

1.  Israel is not persecuting or oppressing the Palestinians and I have already provided tons of evidence in this thread that you conveniently ignore.  

• It is the Palestinians that are the terrorist oppressors who are seeking Israel's destruction. 
• They are the ones sending out suicide bombers into Israel and murdering the elderly in their beds. 
• They are the ones that ambush Jewish families on empty backroad and machine gun them to death.   It is the Palestinians who lob mortars and missiles daily into Israeli cities like Sderot and trying to murder Jews indiscriminately.
• It is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, a terrorist organization to be their representative government.  
• It is Muslim Imams who screech like banshees calling for Israel's annihilation every Friday night in mosques that sit on Israeli soil.   
• It is the Muslims who desecrate Jewish holy sites 

On the other hand, Israel offers them

• freedom of speech,
• freedom of religion,
• freedom of the press,
• citizenship,
• universal healthcare for free, 
• Full voting rights,
• Representation in the Knesset,

It was Israel that built them modern sewage systems, and hospitals and schools.  The Muslim nations of Jordan and Egypt didn't do that when the Palestinians were under Jordanian control.  It was Israel that provided the Palestinians with health care and starting curing their children of preventable childhood diseases and increase the life expectancy of the average Palestinian.

Israel doesn't treat them like royalty, but neither does Israel have a policy of destruction against the Palestinians, like the Palestinians have against Israel.

 

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Your theology also has race at it's core and God is not a racist.

No, my theology has the faithfulness of God to His promises at it's core.   You are the one that promotes a racist, anti-Semitic theology.

 

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God doesn't have two plans, one for a specific race of people, and another one for everyone else. God has only one plan and His promises apply to all nations and races of people equally. 

No one said that God has two plans.  But God did make promises to biblical Israel that He has obligated Himself to fulfill even if that doesn't fit your ungodly hate-filled, pro-terrorism/pro-Hamas views. 

[Guest shiloh357]

29 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Israel was never an ethnically race of people. 

Yes, it was.  They are the ethnic descendants of Jacob and treated as a specific ethnicity in scripture.

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Caleb was an Edomite, Othniel, the first judge, was not an ethnic Jew. Moses as I pointed out earlier was in an interracial marriage with a Cushite. Rahab was a Canaanite and Ruth was a Moabite to name a few examples.

None that negates that Israel is an ethnic nation.  Non-Israelites that joined themselves to Israel do not change what Israel was/is.

 

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If God prefers one race of people over another, then that would make God and those who believe this way a racist would it not? 

No one said God prefers one race over another.   That is your dishonest spin on what we have said.  Apparently you have some honesty issues.

 

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Your tone and your false claims against people that disagree with you show that you are not mature enough to handle a debate such as this. In this thread, and others, you have called people that did not support your views ungodly, liars, terrorist sympathizers, Muslims, racist, and pro-terrorism. This is not a Christlike. You do not not have a spiritual attitude towards others, and you are wrong in your assumptions about those who disagree with you. 

You are the one getting on here and defending terrorism and making racist arguments. That is a fact, and I am not the only one in the thread who has noticed it.   You are the one who is not Christlike and I am not wrong.   You simply lack the honesty to face up to the truth about your anti-Semitic theology.