JoeChan82 Posted June 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 95 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/21/1958 Share Posted June 2, 2018 13 hours ago, Da Puppers said: *[[Zec 1:18]] KJV* Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. *[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. You do know that a trumpet is a horned instrument, right? Trumpets are blown not just for the sake of calling the assembly, for war, etc. But, in the case of warfare, they are to put fear in the enemies hearts. *[[Jdg 7:22]] KJV* And the three hundred [along with Gideon] blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath. when The kingdom of God, comes in the future to the land of Israel, the Lord will not allow any evil or wicked men to reside therein: I see what you are saying about horns and trumpets. I'm not calling that into question at all. You said the trumpets were for the land of Israel only. I say that a simple reading of the description of the results of the 7 trumpets in Revelation leave no doubt that the whole world is affected, not merely the land of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 On 5/31/2018 at 11:56 AM, Mike Mclees said: Tribulation has been with the church since its birth at Pentecost. The believers suffered at the hands of its own people. They were scattered at the hands of Saul. They were persecuted and slaughtered at the hands of Roman emperors until Constantine Even today they are murdered and tortured in the Middle East and other countries. So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years. It appears that you are conflating "persecution" with what we refer to as the Tribulation period. Persecution has always been with the Church and you can refer to that as "tribulation" but it is important to mistake tribulation with THE Tribulation, that will make persecution look like a walk in the park. And I don't recall anyone saying that those who are believers during the Tribulation period are "second rate." That appears to be a value that you assign to those you disagree with and that is really not fair. They will not be part of the "church age" but they will be just as saved and loved by God as believers during the church age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeChan82 Posted June 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 95 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/21/1958 Share Posted June 2, 2018 15 minutes ago, Da Puppers said: I don't disagree that the whole world will be affected by the trumpet judgments. But it's purposes will ultimately be to prepare the kingdom for his reign. With the focus on the land, the kingdom of Israel, I want you to see that the focus is also on the people of Israel. A rereading of Ezekiel 4 and 5 would be helpful to what I'm about to show you. I see what you are saying. We're not as far apart as I first thought. I have seen some far fetched theories floated in these forums, so thank you for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted June 2, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: It appears that you are conflating "persecution" with what we refer to as the Tribulation period. Persecution has always been with the Church and you can refer to that as "tribulation" but it is important to mistake tribulation with THE Tribulation, that will make persecution look like a walk in the park. And I don't recall anyone saying that those who are believers during the Tribulation period are "second rate." That appears to be a value that you assign to those you disagree with and that is really not fair. They will not be part of the "church age" but they will be just as saved and loved by God as believers during the church age. I see you are still confused about tribulation being two thousand years since Pentecost , the great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 years and the wrath of God. Three different evens in that order. What the pre tribers say the last seven years is the tribulation period. This is confusion. After the temporary 7 yr peace there will be 3 1/2 yes of peace while the antichrist waits for the Temple to be rebuilt at which time he will use it to declare he is god. He will then set in motion the the mark of the beast to root out Christians and ll who refuse to honor him. That the long and the short of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said: I see you are still confused about tribulation being two thousand years since Pentecost , the great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 years and the wrath of God. Three different evens in that order. No, I am not confused. There are 2000 year of persecution or "tribulation" if you want to call it that, the 7 year Tribulation of which, the latter 3 1/2 years make up the "Great Tribulation." I understand that perfectly. Quote What the pre tribers say the last seven years is the tribulation period. This is confusion. After the temporary 7 yr peace there will be 3 1/2 yes of peace while the antichrist waits for the Temple to be rebuilt at which time he will use it to declare he is god. He will then set in motion the the mark of the beast to root out Christians and ll who refuse to honor him. That the long and the short of it. No, you're the one confused about what Pre-tribbers say. We hold to a 3 1/2 year peace (first half of the Tribulation period) followed by 3 1/2 years of the Wrath of God (Great Tribulation). The "mark" is part of the 1st 3 1/2 years as well as the rebuilt Temple. I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeChan82 Posted June 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 95 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/21/1958 Share Posted June 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind. Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position. Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming. They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age. The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation. How did I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 13 hours ago, JoeChan82 said: Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position. Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming. Yes, the prophets did not see the Church age. It is what Paul called a mystery. Don't know that I would use the word, "parenthetical," but yes the prophets did not see the Church. They saw the first and second coming and the millennium, but not Church. Quote They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age. The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation. How did I do? The 70th week of Daniel doesn't begin with the rapture. It begins with the peace treaty confirmed by the Antichrist. When he confirms the treaty the 70th week begins and the AC breaks the treaty 31/2 years in and that is when the latter half of the 70th week begins, what we call "the wrath of God. The return of Jesus and the rapture are not simultaneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted June 3, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2018 18 hours ago, JoeChan82 said: Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position. Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming. They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age. The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation. How did I do? 18 hours ago, shiloh357 said: No, I am not confused. There are 2000 year of persecution or "tribulation" if you want to call it that, the 7 year Tribulation of which, the latter 3 1/2 years make up the "Great Tribulation." I understand that perfectly. No, you're the one confused about what Pre-tribbers say. We hold to a 3 1/2 year peace (first half of the Tribulation period) followed by 3 1/2 years of the Wrath of God (Great Tribulation). The "mark" is part of the 1st 3 1/2 years as well as the rebuilt Temple. I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 3, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2018 9 hours ago, shiloh357 said: The 70th week of Daniel doesn't begin with the rapture. I'm curious as to how much time lapses, in your view, between the pretrib rapture and the 70th week of Daniel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 9 minutes ago, Last Daze said: I'm curious as to how much time lapses, in your view, between the pretrib rapture and the 70th week of Daniel? I don't know. But it will likely not be terribly long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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