Two trbulations and the truth about them

[Steve_S]

23 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

This not rocket science.  And despite the fact that you keep saying the same things, over and over again about what pre-trib believers believe and those claims are false, and you have been corrected on them, numerous times, you are still making those same claims, over and over again, ad nauseam.  You did it for 9 more pages after your above post.  In each case you lie, and every time you lie, you destroy your own credibility.  Every time you resort to a personal insult, which you have done numerous times, in this thread alone, you destroy your credibility, and yes, I report every personal insult you resort to.  No need to thank me, it's my pleasure to do so. 

When I refer to people that are saved, I am referring to the Church Age.  The Rapture is the end of the Church Age.  The focus returns to Israel, and their eventual reconciliation with God, as both a people and a nation. Believers in the Church Age are not appointed to wrath.  Paul tells us that for a reason, but I constantly see mid-tribs and post-tribs pretend like that verse does not exist.  Or, they claim it isn't God's wrath.  Convenient vehicles to avoid what the verse says plainly, but not actually effective.  The Great Multitude are those who are saved during the Tribulation.  They are not Church Age believers.  I don't think I'm going before the Tribulation because I am somehow "special," even though you keep erroneously telling anybody reading the thread that that is what we believe.  One does not need to be a top-rung theologian to understand what "not appointed to wrath" means.

You can tell someone you think their doctrine is wrong without being a jerk.  There is no need to mis-characterize them and openly lie about what they believe if your own argument has merit.  And yet, you do so in post after post.  Your  delivery is the problem.  And you will keep meeting fierce resistance until you can somehow learn to modify your behavior.  It isn't resistance to your doctrine as much as it is to your continual lies, and your repetitive personal insults.  And you don't have to wonder if we are reporting them.  We are, and we will continue to do so until you can somehow learn to stop doing it. 

Cobalt removed from the thread for this post.

[Steve Conley]

17 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Sorry to say, you're doing the same thing Diaste tried earlier in this thread: "it's fact because I say so". Post-trib and Mid-trib fail to answer many important points, and leave gaping holes where Pre-trib ibilically answers them and is solid.

BTW: insulting the pre-trib doctrine doesn't prove your point; it only demonstrates that when you cannot prove your stance, you result to cheap tactics.

As to the first resurrection: it is first in order, but it does not have to be in one single phase (unless you want to claim there are actually two superbowls because there is the first and second halves!),

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So...414, you are one to speak. I haven't seen more circular reasoning, eisegesis, and hermeneutical gymnastics than I've seen on this forum from pre-tribbers like your self.

Pretribulationism is wrong because:

(if one or two of these doesn't apply to your flavor of pretribulationism, just take the ones that do, there are plenty to go around)

1. It fails to distinguish between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord.
2. It teaches 3 comings (parousia) of Christ.
3. It attributes the warnings of Christ to the elect to the unbelieving Jews.
4. It manufactures a whole new resurrection of the dead in Christ.
5. It says God's wrath begins in the beginning of the week.
6. It says the apostasia is not the falling away but the rapture (wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction)
7. It misidentifies the activities of Christ in the end of the week (Rev 19) with His arrival.
8. It teaches that the glorious appearing of Christ to gather His own unto Himself will be secret.
9. It teaches that Christ could come at any moment, when Jesus and Paul both said different.
10. It teaches that the revelation of the Beast is being withheld by the Holy Spirit.
11. It teaches that the seals are part of God's wrath.
12. It is new and therefore untrue. All the "church fathers" who wrote upon the subject expected the church to see the antichrist and experience persecution at his hand.
13. It is essentially a tenant of the modern prosperity gospel, which teaches glory before suffering.
14. It teaches that Christ's coming will be without sign, when the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles all speak of them.
15. It teaches that the rapture will come as a thief upon the believer.

Out of time, this will have to do for now.

Hallelujah

 

 

[Brother Duke]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I Thessalonians 4:13, 14 and Rev. 20: 4-6.   Those are not the same people being raised from the dead if you bother to read both passages.   Those are not the same event.  They describe two completely different events. 

I Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

 

Why would they be different people?  They are both asleep as both groups have died in Christ!   Where is your proof they are different groups?   There is no scripture showing a pre-resurrection.  The dead in Christ are resurrected first and then the living in Christ.   This would include the 2 witnesses which happens at the 6th trumpet after the 2nd woe.

 

In addition the 5th seal show that the dead in Christ and the future saints are resurrected together since the dead in Christ have to wait for the future tribulations saints to be killed as they were.

Rev. 20:9-11 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Brother Duke

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

One lie with another lie....

 

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

No, I am not lying.  I am not like you.  I don't add to people's words in order to paint them to mean something they don't mean.

InChrist and Shiloh removed from thread for these posts.

[Montana Marv]

26 minutes ago, inchrist said:

I'm afraid you got no choice,

Pre tribs doctrine is the manipulation of scripture of the living saints to be raptured amongst the dead in Christ.

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection

Even grammatically you can not manipulate first the dead in Christ will rise with this statement first resurrection

first the dead in christ/first ressurection. They are one and the same phrases 

Pretrib is a false doctrine of the living saints to be raptured inbetween the dead in Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

Really you are not fully aware.

There are only Two types of Resurrections, One for the Just (called the First Resurrection) and the other for the Unjust (called the Second Resurrection). So ones Soul and their Body will be part of one or the other of these Resurrections.  Now in the Resurrection for the Unjust there are two three entries.  The First being the Beast and False Prophet going in before Armageddon (Rev 19:20), Satan at (Rev 20:10); and then those whose names are in the books (Rev 20:11-15. So three different entries into the Lake of Fire.

So now with the Resurrection for the Just (First Resurrection).  What makes you say that there is only one entry into this Resurrection. We have Christ the First Fruit; Next we have the dead in Christ rising first, then those who are still alive following them to meet the Lord in the Air 1 Thes 4:16-18. Now compare with 1 Cor 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own turn; Christ the First Fruits, then when He comes, those who belong to Him (1 Thes 4:16-18).  Notice, it does not say at the 2nd Coming.

Now in Daniel 12:13 - Now as for you (Daniel) go your way till the end.  You will rest, then at the end of days you will rise to receive your inheritance.  This is the Jewish homeland during the Mill.  And Rev 20:5 - insert - and the rest of the dead did not rise until the end of the 1000 years. This is the First Resurrection.  So we can see that there are different entry points into the Resurrection for the Just.  The first at 1 Thes 4:16-18. Another one at the end of days, Dan 12:13.  Then another one at the end of the 1000 years, Rev 20:5.  And this does not omit other entries into the Resurrection for the Just.

O.T Saints, Post Mill. The righteous of Israel, Pre Mill.  The Rapture of the Church (no date given, an unknown time and a mystery). Tribulation Saints, those who were killed or sent into Captivity and then died, Pre Mill.  Those who were beheaded, those who did not take the mark or worship the Beast, Pre Mill.  Those born during the 1000 years receive their glorified bodies, Post Mill.

Now if you can correctly give the time of the Rapture of the Bride, May I call you God the Father.  I have no idea when the 70th Week will begin, but once it begins, one will know the time frame of the things to come, and thus counting down to your unknown time of the Rapture being, whatever you think is right, is then false.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

[Steve_S]

David and Last Daze banned from topic.

[Brother Duke]

Never started a new topic in prophecy forum.  Is my new topic viewable?

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/223058-revelation-and-the-study-of-woe/

 

[Steve Conley]

15 hours ago, angels4u said:

When the rapture comes, there will be no arguing about the pre- rapture anymore, I hope people understand that we're not here anymore, Worthy will have to do without us

Who of you will still be here to fill in the blanks? 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

angels4u, when the rapture comes there will be no pretribulationists to rapture, those of us who are alive and remain will be, as pretribbers like to call them, "tribulation saints". 

1. The day of our rescue is the very day God's wrath begins to fall upon the wicked and the day we rest from persecution (Luke 17:26-30; 2Thes 1:6-10).
2. The day (period of time) in which God's wrath falls suddenly upon the wicked is called the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2-3, Isa 13:6-11; 2Peter 3:10).
3. The day of the Lord has a cosmic sign which comes before it, which will portend or announce that the day's arrival is at hand (Joel 2:31). 
4. John describes seeing this sign at the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17).
5. Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation (Matt 24:29, 21).
6. Paul associates the coming (parousia) of Christ with our gathering together unto Him in the day of the Lord (Christ) (2Thes 2:1-2; 1Thes 4:15-17).
7. When Christ arrives in the clouds, with the holy angels, at His coming (parousia), He is revealed for all the world to see (Rev 1:7; Matt 24:30). 
8. When He appears the earth dwellers who have been complicit in the persecution of the church and Israel are filled with fear and begin to hide (Matt 24:30; Luke 21:25-28; Rev 6:12-17).
9. When He appears, the saints that will have survived the unprecedented persecution will be looking to the skies in expectation of His arrival because it was announced by the cosmic sign (Luke 21:28).
10. Christ then, in a moment of time, resurrects the dead in Christ and changes, to make immortal, the living believer (Dan 12:2; 1Cor 15:23, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6).
11. Christ then sends forth His angels to gather His elect, the resurrected and changed, unto himself (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1).
12. Christ then escorts us to the Father's house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17).
13. Later the same day after a half hour of silence in Heaven God begins to pour out His wrath with the first trumpet judgement (Rev 8).

All of this takes place at an undisclosed time in the second half of the seventieth week. The unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel being over the remainder of the week will be characterized by the fierce wrath of God falling upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

[Montana Marv]

Rebuke the Devil and he will flee you. N.T. Believers.

I don't see this happening during the 70th Week

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Rebuke the Devil and he will flee you. N.T. Believers.

I don't see this happening during the 70th Week

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, It is interesting that when Jesus told the disciples that He must first suffer and die, because that must take place before He enters into glory, Peter responded saying not so Lord.

Mat 16:22  Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Luk 24:26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Notice what Jesus said to Peter when Peter wanted the glory (Christ's reign) without the suffering (the cross).

"Get thee behind me Satan"

Would that apply to all those who preach glory without suffering?

Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1Th 3:3  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Act 5:41  And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Glory comes only after suffering, not without it, as the prosperity gospel teaches and escapist eschatological models lend to.

2Ti 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Wait! hold on! The latest is in from the Grand High Muckety Muck of the pretrubulational council. He says that it is only Jews and "tribulation saints" who must suffer for Jesus if they expect to reign with Him. I guess that settles it, we get to escape suffering. Whew that was close. 

"Shall we be carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease, while others fought to win the prize and sailed through bloody seas"

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Steve Conley