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Mike Mclees

Two trbulations and the truth about them

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6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Please post the chapter and verse, several, that prove the above. Otherwise it's just your opinion.

I would say that I have already shown you that:

1.  The man of sin is the false prophet working miracles,  signs,  and lying wonders;

2.  The strong delusion is the signs and wonders; 

3. The lie that the world believes is to take the mark; *[[Rev 19:20]] KJV* And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. 

4.  Their damnation will be the lake of fire; *[[Rev 14:10]] KJV* The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

5.  God is the one who sends it:  *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

6.  The targeted ones are the ones who rejected the gospel,  and not the ones who are weak in their faith: *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send THEM strong delusion, that THEY should believe a lie:

 That THEY all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

6.  God's intentions are revealed before the mark is implemented: 

*[[Rev 14:9]] KJV* And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

7.  No where in Rev 13, et al, does it say that the dragon or the beast is the one who GIVES authority to the false prophet. 

If you think that I have just presented my opinion,  it looks to me that you are going to have to prove that the man of sin is not the false prophet,  but it is the beast doing miracles and signs,  with authority from God. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

 

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The false prophet is not Satan or the beast, but will be instrumental in carrying out Satan's diabolical plan 

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7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would say that I have already shown you that:

1.  The man of sin is the false prophet working miracles,  signs,  and lying wonders;

2.  The strong delusion is the signs and wonders; 

3. The lie that the world believes is to take the mark; *[[Rev 19:20]] KJV* And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. 

4.  Their damnation will be the lake of fire; *[[Rev 14:10]] KJV* The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

5.  God is the one who sends it:  *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

6.  The targeted ones are the ones who rejected the gospel,  and not the ones who are weak in their faith: *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send THEM strong delusion, that THEY should believe a lie:

 That THEY all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

6.  God's intentions are revealed before the mark is implemented: 

*[[Rev 14:9]] KJV* And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

7.  No where in Rev 13, et al, does it say that the dragon or the beast is the one who GIVES authority to the false prophet. 

If you think that I have just presented my opinion,  it looks to me that you are going to have to prove that the man of sin is not the false prophet,  but it is the beast doing miracles and signs,  with authority from God. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

 

I think what you have proven is God's wrath is the ultimate destiny of acceptance of the mark and the worship of the beast. 

The mark is not wrath, it's the revealing of the heart and mind of the individual accepting the mark, leading to the ultimate destiny of wrath for each person who so chooses. 

It's a logical fallacy to make assertions and then challenge the audience to disprove the assertion. The burden of proof is on the one making the case. In this instance you have not proven the false prophet is the beast but instead charge others to disprove the claim. I think it's topsy turvy, but I accept.

Rev 13

" 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast."

Rev 13 clearly states the second beast was given power and exercises that power on behalf of the first beast. The first beast and the dragon are top dogs here as the world worships the first beast and the dragon, and the false prophet influences the world to worship the first beast. The false prophet is therefore subordinate to the first beast and the dragon, and is not the beast, nor the man of sin. 

Since the second beast is given power and is subordinate to the first beast, where did that power originate? All we have here is the dragon as the bestower of power. The dragon gave power and authority to the first beast so it is a natural conclusion the second beast received power through the same channel; seeing the second beast is directing the world to worship the first beast, and is performing signs on behalf of the first beast. Another clue in my mind is how the second beast spoke, like a dragon. The false prophet speaks aligned with a dragon, if not the dragon. It's not a stretch to think when it is said the second beast speaks like a dragon, it speaks like the same dragon from Rev 13.

We are going to see three major players in the end: the dragon, the first beast and the false prophet, all acting in concert subjugating the inhabitants of the earth. 

I requested chapter and verse proving the mark of the beast is the wrath of God. Some verse that speaks to such an equivalence. You have shown only the destiny of mark acceptance. An example of proof might look like; Rev 15:1, "I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"

Here we know for sure the last 7 plagues are equivalent to God's wrath. It's stated plainly. Got anything like this for your assertion the mark exhibits identical equivalence to wrath in the same sort of plain speech as in Rev 15:1?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think what you have proven is God's wrath is the ultimate destiny of acceptance of the mark and the worship of the beast. 

The mark is not wrath, it's the revealing of the heart and mind of the individual accepting the mark, leading to the ultimate destiny of wrath for each person who so chooses. 

It's a logical fallacy to make assertions and then challenge the audience to disprove the assertion. The burden of proof is on the one making the case. In this instance you have not proven the false prophet is the beast but instead charge others to disprove the claim. I think it's topsy turvy, but I accept.

Rev 13

" 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast."

Rev 13 clearly states the second beast was given power and exercises that power on behalf of the first beast. The first beast and the dragon are top dogs here as the world worships the first beast and the dragon, and the false prophet influences the world to worship the first beast. The false prophet is therefore subordinate to the first beast and the dragon, and is not the beast, nor the man of sin. 

Since the second beast is given power and is subordinate to the first beast, where did that power originate? All we have here is the dragon as the bestower of power. The dragon gave power and authority to the first beast so it is a natural conclusion the second beast received power through the same channel; seeing the second beast is directing the world to worship the first beast, and is performing signs on behalf of the first beast. Another clue in my mind is how the second beast spoke, like a dragon. The false prophet speaks aligned with a dragon, if not the dragon. It's not a stretch to think when it is said the second beast speaks like a dragon, it speaks like the same dragon from Rev 13.

We are going to see three major players in the end: the dragon, the first beast and the false prophet, all acting in concert subjugating the inhabitants of the earth. 

I requested chapter and verse proving the mark of the beast is the wrath of God. Some verse that speaks to such an equivalence. You have shown only the destiny of mark acceptance. An example of proof might look like; Rev 15:1, "I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"

Here we know for sure the last 7 plagues are equivalent to God's wrath. It's stated plainly. Got anything like this for your assertion the mark exhibits identical equivalence to wrath in the same sort of plain speech as in Rev 15:1?

I did.   You apparently don't accept the certainty of God's word.   He who takes the mark,   shall (as in the future)  drink (be a partaker) of the cup (a vessel to drink fluids from) of God's wrath.   In other words,  a foreordinate certainty from God.  God's wrath is symbolically pictured as being retained in a cup,  that is to be poured out in the day of wrath.   Taking the mark,  adds to the wrath that is to be poured out (in the future,  to that time).   Rev 16 makes it clear that those who take the mark are contributors to the stored up wrath of God in the vials/ bowls: 

*[[Rev 16:2]] KJV* And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

To use the notion that the FP gets his authority "from" the beast or Dragon [rather than simply 'exercising the authority,  over the same people/ kingdom '] actually supports the FP being the man of sin.   What I'm saying is, 'GOD sending them delusion ', would have nothing to do with where the authority comes from,  as per Rev. 13. [In determining who IS the man of sin].  This means that scriptures would have to say somewhere,  besides 2 Thess 2, that the beast also does miracles, signs,  and wonders.   But it does not.   Thus, meaning that the characteristics that Paul gave in 2 Thess 2, more closely match the characteristics that John gave in Rev.  13, FOR the man of sin,  TO BE THE FALSE PROPHET,  rather than the beast.  

All of this,  I guess,  means that you are holding on to your post-trib beliefs,  more so than believing that the deception to take the mark is not a God sent intentional delusion,  with the explicit purpose of damning everyone who takes it.

Blessings

The PuP 

 

P.S.  You do understand that when the man of sin arrives on the scene,  iniquity will no longer be a mystery?   I.e., there will be an unmistakable distinction between sin and righteousness during that time. 

*[[2Th 2:7]] KJV* For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

*[[2Th 2:8]] KJV* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers
P.s.

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Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

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11 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

Yeah. Seems clear enough.

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20 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
4 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

On this part I agree with you.  Both the first beast and the great Harlot ( apostate Christian church) are described with ten horns and ten crowns. Both are of the dragons power. They will be world figures known around the world and having the same intents. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I did.   You apparently don't accept the certainty of God's word.   He who takes the mark,   shall (as in the future)  drink (be a partaker) of the cup (a vessel to drink fluids from) of God's wrath.   In other words,  a foreordinate certainty from God.  God's wrath is symbolically pictured as being retained in a cup,  that is to be poured out in the day of wrath.   Taking the mark,  adds to the wrath that is to be poured out (in the future,  to that time).   Rev 16 makes it clear that those who take the mark are contributors to the stored up wrath of God in the vials/ bowls: 

*[[Rev 16:2]] KJV* And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

To use the notion that the FP gets his authority "from" the beast or Dragon [rather than simply 'exercising the authority,  over the same people/ kingdom '] actually supports the FP being the man of sin.   What I'm saying is, 'GOD sending them delusion ', would have nothing to do with where the authority comes from,  as per Rev. 13. [In determining who IS the man of sin].  This means that scriptures would have to say somewhere,  besides 2 Thess 2, that the beast also does miracles, signs,  and wonders.   But it does not.   Thus, meaning that the characteristics that Paul gave in 2 Thess 2, more closely match the characteristics that John gave in Rev.  13, FOR the man of sin,  TO BE THE FALSE PROPHET,  rather than the beast.  

All of this,  I guess,  means that you are holding on to your post-trib beliefs,  more so than believing that the deception to take the mark is not a God sent intentional delusion,  with the explicit purpose of damning everyone who takes it.

Blessings

The PuP 

 

P.S.  You do understand that when the man of sin arrives on the scene,  iniquity will no longer be a mystery?   I.e., there will be an unmistakable distinction between sin and righteousness during that time. 

*[[2Th 2:7]] KJV* For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

*[[2Th 2:8]] KJV* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The PuP 

Clear as mud. I'm bowing out.

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13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

*[[Zec 1:18]] KJV* Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.

*[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

You do know that a trumpet is a horned instrument,  right? 

Trumpets are blown not just for the sake of calling the assembly,  for war,  etc.  But, in the case of warfare,  they are to put fear in the enemies hearts. 

*[[Jdg 7:22]] KJV* And the three hundred [along with Gideon]  blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

 when The kingdom of God, comes in the future  to the land of Israel,  the Lord will not allow any evil or wicked men to reside therein:  

I see what you are saying about horns and trumpets.  I'm not calling that into question at all.  You said the trumpets were for the land of Israel only. I say that a simple reading of the description of the results of the 7 trumpets in Revelation leave no doubt that the whole world is affected, not merely the land of Israel.  

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On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 11:56 AM, Mike Mclees said:

Tribulation has been with the church since its birth at Pentecost. The believers suffered at the hands of its own people. They were scattered at the hands of Saul. They were persecuted and slaughtered at the hands of Roman emperors until Constantine Even today they are murdered and tortured in the Middle East and other countries. So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years.

It appears that you are conflating "persecution" with what we refer to as the Tribulation period.   Persecution  has always been with the Church and you can refer to that as "tribulation"  but it is important to mistake tribulation with THE Tribulation, that will make persecution look like a walk in the park. 

And I don't recall anyone saying that those who are believers during the Tribulation period are "second rate."   That appears to be a value that you assign to those you disagree with and that is really not fair.

They will not be part of the "church age"  but they will be just as saved and loved by God as believers during the church age.   

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