Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 Just now, Davida said: Wow , an oye vey is too offensive for you is it?? How about what you said Pre-Tribers believe and said? - it was completely insulting garbage & totally false. What you stated does not represent PreTrib belief. Below in quotes is simply what YOU think, because you obviously cannot understand what PreTribers say when they use the scripture, so you are reinterpreting what they say to put us in a Negative light & giving it a nasty spin. None of what you stated below is what PreTrib are coming from. Your statement is just slander against Pretribbers and your own Negative Spin. "Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and are gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing. What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us. At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. " There is nothing here untrue and I stand by it. I have witnessed all the above whether you like it or not. What's so wrong about the truth? Pretrib engages in unreasonable conclusions based on preconceived notions, the very definition of prejudice. I have experienced the intolerance of these same advocates, of which you and Shiloh and Cobalt are proof, as it's likely I hurt your feelings. In order to defend you all attacked. That's fine. The intolerance I have seen here is also the definition of bigotry, "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself", You three have shown nothing but intolerance and thereby prove the point. And all three pretrib, yes? I fully understand the ramifications of the pretrib doctrine. It's you who do not. Lets try basic logic. Pretrib says tribulation is equivalent to wrath. No believer is appointed to wrath. Therefore no believer will see tribulation. This is refuted by, rev 7:13-14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This cannot be according to pretrib. But you carry a preconceived notion that pushes this aside even in the face of rational experience. Prejudice. So then we have, according to pretrib, a holy group taken out before tribulation, and a less than holy group that must stay behind and endure tribulation, even though pretrib says the opposite. That's hypocrisy. Do you see? If no believer is appointed to wrath, which is tribulation in the eyes of pretrib, how is it that a vast multitude no man could number comes from the very thing you say they are not so appointed? It's hard. I know. You'll see. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: No, I am not mudslinging. I am sincerely calling you out for your public accusations which you clearly cannot demonstrate to be true. I have been here for nearly 14 years and no one on the pre-trib side has said those things you accuse us of. You're just willingly blind to it. It's fine. I don't want you to believe it's true. No problem. Edited June 4, 2018 by Diaste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 21 minutes ago, Davida said: You simply have no credibility without backing up your opinion with scripture. Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, Davida said: I'm trying to speak to you Diaste, your right, it is amazing that I would even bother. To me? I have my doubts about that. So why bother? What's to be gained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 27 minutes ago, Davida said: Wow , an oye vey is too offensive for you is it? How about what you said Pre-Tribers believe and said? - it was completely insulting garbage & totally false. What you stated below in quotes does not represent PreTrib belief. Below in quotes is simply what You think, because you obviously cannot understand what Pre-Tribers say when they use the scripture, so you are reinterpreting what they say to put us in a negative light & giving it a nasty spin. None of what you stated below is what PreTrib are coming from. Your statement is just slander against Pretribbers and your own Negative Spin. No pretriber ever believes in two groups one being "elite and holy". Give me a break. "Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and are gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing. What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us. At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. " It's not the Oy Vey that's the problem, it's the demeanor, it's what it represents. And it's not offensive, it's all just so sad and bit stunning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Davida said: You made completely false statements about WHAT PreTrib view is about and presented falsely WHY Pre Trib people believe what we do, that they see themselves as "holy and righteous" and that is a LIE. It didn't hurt my feelings - it is simply not true. Your saying that we attacked you - that is FALSE also. You simply wanted to get away with it without being challenged. You portrayed What the Pretrib believe falsely and assigned false motives to PreTrib believers also. Now you are trying to attack Cobalt and Shiloh and I too as being "intolerant" to your false accusations against Pretribers. You are blinded Diaste & can't see your own words accuse yourself. I'm done here. So I posted the proof and you ignored it. Anyway, please change your mind about the end of the age. Hope to see you in the throne room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: Mudslinging is using accusation for the sole purpose of destroying or discrediting someone's argument via a personal attack. No one has done that to you Diaste; instead, you were called out on things you said that are, in fact, untrue. And the purpose of doing so was not to "destroy you", but to establish the actual truth instead of your personal, unproven suppositions. If a small icon at the corner of your screen is enough to bother you (or others), then that is an issue you're going to have to deal with, just like everyone else has to.. I get "oy veyed" all the time by folks who disagree with me. I don't go to pieces over it or "take my ball and go home" because I got one, or even come up with dumb insults like "oy vey king" (like some I know of). Life's tough, buy a helmet. Thank you for your kind permission, but we didn't ask. They don't believe you for the same reason that I don't believe you: you have not summed up the Pre-Tribulation Rapture correctly and yet when informed of your error, continue to spread untruth. So with that said, all that leaves as the remaining possibility that you will not engage them (nor myself) is this: Shiloh357, Cobalt1969 and Davida demonstrated where you erred, and you cannot handle it. That makes you upset, and now you're striking out at folks because it stung you. Now a little something for free: If you want people to believe what you say and take your comments seriously, then you need to present the truth and not what you want to be true. And if someone disagrees with you and you get an "oy vey", you just might want to ask about that instead of complaining. Otherwise, if it's not to your liking, simply depart the topic and don't look back: you don't "get points" for debating someone out of a topic, especially where the Lord is concerned when it comes time for rewards before the Bema Seat. I know what mudslinging is and nothing I said is untrue. I have now heard all four of you complain about some misrepresentation of the pretrib doctrine but not a one of you have posted a refutation to whatever perceived slight you think you saw. Here's the fact of Pretribs error; Pretrib says tribulation is equivalent to wrath. No believer is appointed to wrath. Therefore no believer will see tribulation. This is refuted by, rev 7:13-14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This cannot be according to pretrib. But pretrib carries a preconceived notion that pushes this aside even in the face of rational experience. Prejudice. Truth. Informed of an error is not going to influence me in the least. What do I care if someone thinks I'm in error? That happens all the time. Was there a factual refutation? Nope. Just emotion. Playground stuff. I'm not impressed by demonstrating that I was in error when all I get is, "You are wrong, you mudslinging, misrepresenting vile speaker." Means nothing. Post the specific doctrine where I was wrong or you all are welcome to just refrain. Part of the problem is you don't see the ramifications of the doctrine. You aren't following it to it's logical conclusion. Your free gift is insincere. You've seen my posts. That sort of conciliatory offering is inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: You posted nothing to prove one single point. Not to mention you most likely have me on ignore, which means not only are you not seeing what I'm posting, but you cannot refute it either. I see now the only debates you're willing to engage are those that already agree with you. Perhaps then what you propose isn't so solid after all, seeing as it doesn't stand up to scrutiny and you wish none for your stance. I have no one on ignore, thank you very much. That's just immature in my mind. From your above statement you are just on cruise control when it come to this. No argument will make any difference. Here's what I posted: There is nothing here untrue and I stand by it. I have witnessed all the above whether you like it or not. What's so wrong about the truth? Pretrib engages in unreasonable conclusions based on preconceived notions, the very definition of prejudice. FACT I have experienced the intolerance of these same advocates, of which you and Shiloh and Cobalt are proof, as it's likely I hurt your feelings. FACT In order to defend you all attacked. That's fine. The intolerance I have seen here is also the definition of bigotry, "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself", FACT You three have shown nothing but intolerance and thereby prove the point. And all three pretrib, yes? FACT I fully understand the ramifications of the pretrib doctrine. It's you who do not. Lets try basic logic. Pretrib says tribulation is equivalent to wrath. FACT No believer is appointed to wrath. FACT Therefore no believer will see tribulation. FACT This is refuted by, rev 7:13-14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This cannot be according to pretrib. But you carry a preconceived notion that pushes this aside even in the face of rational experience. Prejudice. MORE FACT So then we have, according to pretrib, a holy group taken out before tribulation, and a less than holy group that must stay behind and endure tribulation, even though pretrib says the opposite. That's hypocrisy. Do you see? If no believer is appointed to wrath, which is tribulation in the eyes of pretrib, how is it that a vast multitude no man could number comes from the very thing you say they are not so appointed? Please answer this. I'll engage in a sincere discussion but I don't think the four of you are sincere. Remember, I have engaged all of you in the past, has your thinking changed? Not one of you has come forward to refute any of my posts in the last few months, until today. "Why?", Diaste wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Why are you all jumping all over Diaste, he has shown the err of the pre-trib doctrine and nobody refutes what he says, only the way he said it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 Pre-tribulation is not in error for any reason and particularly stated by Revelation 7:9-17 Those who have come "away" from great tribulation is the subject [Strong's concordance] There is a difference between the tribulations of this present age and the coming tribulation of the Lord's wrath which is a far different matter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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