New Evidence for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin

[MadHermit]

Google "New Evidence: The Shroud of Turin" and watch the 42 plus minute video, one of the most intriguing I have ever seen!  Among other insights, you will learn these 5 facts:

(1) The pieces cut from the Shroud of Turin for C-14 dating are provably a repair job from the Middle Ages.  So that test is invalid.  New nonC-14 tests on the Shroud date it to a range consistent with an origin in Jesus' time.

(2) The man in the Shroud was crucified and the bloodstains are not only real, but consistent both with crucifixion and Jesus' piror beating with a Roman flagellum.

(3) The face cloth (soudarion) of Oviedo has the same rare blood type AB and the same blood spatter pattern as the Shroud of Turin, prompting Shroud scholars to conclude that both this face cloth and the Shroud once covered the same corpse.  This is significant because the face cloth was brought to Oviedo from Jerusalem around 400 AD, almost a thousand years prior to the bogus dating of the Shroud piece tested by C-14 dating.

(4) Israeli experts on ancient tapestry have demonstrated that the Shroud must made according to strict ancient rabbinic requirements, measured in Hebrew cubits, and sprinkled with ancient pollen grains unique to the Palestine region.

(5) Scientists cannot replicate the Shroud's image and have no idea how it was made.   It is made from some kind of radiation, but not from heat or fire.  The energy of Jesus' resurrection?

 

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[Jayne]

Being the cynical person that I am, I've always found the story shroud to be dubious.   I have always been very skeptical of the shroud. Here's why.

• The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human. (Isaiah 52:14) The Suffering Servant
• The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.
• Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas.

There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who doubt, they need no more discussion.

[HAZARD]

The shroud of Turin is a fake. Its a one piece shroud, like a bed sheet. Jesus was wrapped in linin stipes, as in bandages, 

John 19:40, Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

And Jesus head was wrapped in a separate napkin,

John 20:6, Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

John 20:7, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

If the shroud was real, there would be no blood or face imprinted on it as Christs head was wrapped in a separate napkin. 

[Tristen]

Biblical Christianity is not a relic-based belief. The shroud is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant (whether legitimate or not).

[HAZARD]

Some allegedly called Christians tell me on another forum I visit that they don't bow down before statues or  idols made by man. I say what are these people doing?

 

[MadHermit]

 If you bothered to watch the suggestion video, you'd realize that skeptics who have dismissed Jesus' resurrection as superstitious legend have investigate the Shroud and found its authenticity compelling.  They are then forced to consider the possibility of the Resurrection because no scientist can explain how the Shroud's image was made and they admit that the most likely possibility is that it was made through some unknown radiation, but not heat radiation.  Contrary to what has been claimed here, the nature of the Shroud fits neatly with John's description of the tomb and satisfies in detail the ancient rabbinic specifications and units of measurement for such a Shroud in a way that would be unknown to a Medieval forger.  Also, if you watched the video, you'd realize that the image is unbeliebably bloody (contrary to what one poster alleges) and neatly fits the expectations of wounds from Roman flogging and crucifixion.  

When I encounter evangelical closed minds on this issue and a refusal to even watch relevant videos, I just assume tht they don't place much value on the atoning efficacy of the blood of Jesus, even though they would protest to the contrary.  The possibility that rare Type AB blood and both the Shroud and the Oviedo face cloth from ancient Jerusalem thrills me to the core like no conventional Christian apologetics can do.

 

[HAZARD]

14 hours ago, MadHermit said:

 If you bothered to watch the suggestion video, you'd realize that skeptics who have dismissed Jesus' resurrection as superstitious legend have investigate the Shroud and found its authenticity compelling.  They are then forced to consider the possibility of the Resurrection because no scientist can explain how the Shroud's image was made and they admit that the most likely possibility is that it was made through some unknown radiation, but not heat radiation.  Contrary to what has been claimed here, the nature of the Shroud fits neatly with John's description of the tomb and satisfies in detail the ancient rabbinic specifications and units of measurement for such a Shroud in a way that would be unknown to a Medieval forger.  Also, if you watched the video, you'd realize that the image is unbeliebably bloody (contrary to what one poster alleges) and neatly fits the expectations of wounds from Roman flogging and crucifixion.  

When I encounter evangelical closed minds on this issue and a refusal to even watch relevant videos, I just assume tht they don't place much value on the atoning efficacy of the blood of Jesus, even though they would protest to the contrary.  The possibility that rare Type AB blood and both the Shroud and the Oviedo face cloth from ancient Jerusalem thrills me to the core like no conventional Christian apologetics can do.

 

The shroud is a fake simply because Jesus body was wrapped in linen cloths and He had a separate napkin wrapped around His head, which was found folded in the tomb beside the cloths.  The shroud is a one piece sheet, . . . . its clearly not strips of linen and a head cloth as Scripture clearly teaches.

[RockyMidnight]

15 hours ago, MadHermit said:

When I encounter evangelical closed minds on this issue and a refusal to even watch relevant videos, I just assume tht they don't place much value on the atoning efficacy of the blood of Jesus, even though they would protest to the contrary.  The possibility that rare Type AB blood and both the Shroud and the Oviedo face cloth from ancient Jerusalem thrills me to the core like no conventional Christian apologetics can do.

 

Hello MadHermit;

I think you are misinterpreting what you perceive as "evangelical closed minds". Relics and idols, including the shroud are diversions to having faith, and it is faith that is foundational to knowing God's word, the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

That you find the shroud so relevant to believing in Christ at this stage of your journey to faith is probably a good thing, but as was already pointed out, what happens if the shroud is hands down proven to be unrelated to Christ? Would that not throw cold water on being thrilled to the core? Relying on faith instead of man's interpretation of things cannot be undermined, if it is true faith. That can never disappoint or let you down. 

This is why the shroud is not relevant to Christianity; it cannot reveal anything faith has already convinced of as truth, truth of God's word.

In fact all it can do is keep skeptical minds skeptical, and that will not lead to faith.

Here are three scriptures that directly enable us to test claims like this shroud issue that's been going on far too long and serves to distract folks from God (the work of evil) instead of bringing people to God. Do you know of anyone who became Christian specifically because of this shroud controversy?

I know of no scripture that tells us to prove God's existence with artifacts. 

Proverbs 3:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴ And so find favor and ^[a]high esteem
In the sight of God and man.

⁵ Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
⁶ In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall ^[b]direct your paths.

1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁴ But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;

Cheers MadHermit! 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by RockyMidnight

[MadHermit]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The shroud is a fake simply because Jesus body was wrapped in linen cloths and He had a separate napkin wrapped around His head, which was found folded in the tomb beside the cloths.  The shroud is a one piece sheet, . . . . its clearly not strips of linen and a head cloth as Scripture clearly teaches.

First, we must endorse all 3 Synoptic Gospels which agree that Jesus' corpse was wrapped in a shroud (Greek: "sindon," a large piece of linen like the Shroud of Turin (Mark 15:46; Matt 27:54; Luke 23:53).                                                             Second, according to John 19:40, the corpse was wrapped "according to the burial custom of the Jews."  Israeli experts on ancient fabrics marvel at how perfectly the creation of the Shroud of Turin employed strict rabbinic guidelines for the measurements and composition of such a shroud.  On this see the recommended YouTube video.                                  Third, "There is really no ancient papyrus support for understanding the term ("othonia" in John 19:40) to refer to strips of cloth, and there is no evidence that the Jews wrapped their corpses with bands or strips."                                     "The plural ("othonia") may be a plural of category designating no more than one object or a plural of extension indicating the size of a piece."  (I am quoting Raymond Brown's magisterial 2-volume Commentary on John who bases his assertions on scholarly research on this question, including Blass-Debrunner's advanced grammar of Koine Greek.)

[Jayne]

16 hours ago, MadHermit said:

When I encounter evangelical closed minds on this issue and a refusal to even watch relevant videos, I just [1] assume tht they don't place much value on the atoning efficacy of the blood of Jesus, even though they would protest to the contrary.  The possibility that [2]  rare Type AB blood and both the Shroud and the Oviedo face cloth from ancient Jerusalem [3] thrills me to the core like no conventional Christian apologetics can do.

[1]  You assume incorrectly.  And you go too far in stating that because we won't watch a video that we place a limited value on the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  I don't need to see literal drops of his blood to know he loves me and died for me and has a plan for me to walk in holiness.  I have faith in his blood based on what the Bible tells me and what the Holy Spirit instructs.

 

[2]  Why does Jesus' blood type have to be rare???  He came here in a human body.  He had a normal color hair, skin tone, teeth.....why does his blood have to be rare?  Rarity doesn't make it special  - because there are other humans today who have AB+.  Are they divine, too?

 

[3] Jesus said to Thomas, "You have seen and believed.  Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe.  I need to proof of Christ's existence.  I believe it without proof.  Apologetics is very important.  The rightful handling of the Word of God is vital.

 

I thought I explained some of your "facts" as unbiblical, but I will try again.

(2) The man in the Shroud was crucified and the bloodstains are not only real, but consistent both with crucifixion and Jesus' piror beating with a Roman flagellum.  According to the Bible, the man in the shroud is NOT consistent with what the Bible says about Jesus' dead body.

• Isaiah 52:13-14 = [prophecy of the humiliation of Jesus, the Servant] - "Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up,  and shall be exalted.  As many were astonished at you—his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—"
• Isaiah 50:6 = [more prophecy of the suffering of Christ] - "I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting."
• Matthew 27:30 = [more explanation of the suffering of Christ] - "And they spat on Him, and took the staff and struck Him on the head repeatedly.
   

   

The figure in the shroud has a definite human appearance, an intact beard, and no hematomas on the face.  All of this is inconsistent with what the Bible says about the appearance of the dead Savior.

I take the Bible over a unproven relic any day of the week.