144.000 Thousand and Gods focus on Israel.

[angels4u]

2 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Steve Conley,

 

Not sure what others think but it is my belief that the 144,000 are the two witness and will preach or witness.  They are sealed and protected like the two witness and the Woman of Rev 12.  I submit they are all the same group.  God said that Israel is his witness and that Israel is the Green Olive Tree.  The 144,000 represent the remnant of Israel.

The 2 witnesses are not the same as the 144 000,the 2 witness es will come down from heaven. 

[Brother Duke]

25 minutes ago, angels4u said:

The 2 witnesses are not the same as the 144 000,the 2 witness es will come down from heaven. 

Hi angels4u,

Where does it say they come down from heaven?

[Daniel 11:36]

"Pops, below are the passages you referenced, I still can't find anything about them being preachers or evangelists"

 

That is because you don't want to see the full picture .... the 144000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel protected, and the first believers of the coming tribulation .... and it is these who will preach the gospel of the Lord's coming kingdom 

In contrast the multitude of today's believers are already in heaven as described in Revelation 7:9-17

Read your Bible son 

 

[JoeCanada]

3 minutes ago, Davida said:

You obviously strongly disagree & want to prove us wrong, so why don't you just state your opinion? 

Hi Davida....

Yes, I do strongly disagree. Why don't I just state my opinion????

My opinion or anyone else's opinion isn't worth a hill of beans. I'm asking for scriptural proof for those who say that the 144,000 are sealed before the Tribulation and that these 144,000 are evangelists to the world. 

 

[Adstar]

The 144,000 are identified in the Book of Revelation as decendants of Israel 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.. They are described as innocents having never known a woman.. These are the remnant that will be preserved through the end times tribulation and wrath..  There is no Biblical support showing them as 144,000 evangelists..

Scriptures supporting the belief that the 144,000 are innocents..

Revelation 14: KJV

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. {5} And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

 

Scriptures supporting the belief that they are decendants of the 12 tribes of Israel

Revelation 7: KJV

4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. {5} Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. {6} Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. {7} Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. {8} Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

[JoeCanada]

Without the backing of scripture, I'm sure any one of us can come up with numerable  scenarios pertaining to a host of ideas. 

 Angels4u began this topic. And what follows is a number of speculations as to who the 144,000 are. Pretty much all those who propose a pre-trib rapture say that the 144,000 are tribulation preachers/evangelists who are sealed before or at the time of tribulation, and these witness to the world, along side or at the same time of the two witnesses. I have asked for scriptural support for these scenarios, but none is given.

Not all of the book of Revelation is chronological, but 1-9 is. So in Rev 6, we have the opening of the 6 seals. Then in Rev 7, the angels are told not to harm the trees, grass and waters until the 144,000 are sealed. Then in Rev 8, the angels are given 7 trumpets, and the first 3 trumpets hurt the trees, grass, seas and waters.

So now the 144,000 are sealed just before the 7th seal is opened, just after the 6th seal. What happens after the 6th seal is opened?

Rev 6:12......."

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John then says....."AFTER THESE THINGS......I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree".....Rev 7:1

Then, the 144,000 are sealed. Then the Resurrection/Rapture happens at this point. 

These 144,000 are the first fruit of the Jewish remnant who are saved and these are raptured along with the church and the dead in Christ.

Yes, this is supported by scripture.

I'm sorry, but I will continue this later and provide support. I have some things to attend to. 

 

 

[angels4u]

23 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Without the backing of scripture, I'm sure any one of us can come up with numerable  scenarios pertaining to a host of ideas. 

 Angels4u began this topic. And what follows is a number of speculations as to who the 144,000 are. Pretty much all those who propose a pre-trib rapture say that the 144,000 are tribulation preachers/evangelists who are sealed before or at the time of tribulation, and these witness to the world, along side or at the same time of the two witnesses. I have asked for scriptural support for these scenarios, but none is given.

Not all of the book of Revelation is chronological, but 1-9 is. So in Rev 6, we have the opening of the 6 seals. Then in Rev 7, the angels are told not to harm the trees, grass and waters until the 144,000 are sealed. Then in Rev 8, the angels are given 7 trumpets, and the first 3 trumpets hurt the trees, grass, seas and waters.

So now the 144,000 are sealed just before the 7th seal is opened, just after the 6th seal. What happens after the 6th seal is opened?

Rev 6:12......."

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John then says....."AFTER THESE THINGS......I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree".....Rev 7:1

Then, the 144,000 are sealed. Then the Resurrection/Rapture happens at this point. 

These 144,000 are the first fruit of the Jewish remnant who are saved and these are raptured along with the church and the dead in Christ.

Yes, this is supported by scripture.

I'm sorry, but I will continue this later and provide support. I have some things to attend to. 

 

 

 

 

It's in Rev 14:4 the 144000 will witness and many people will be saved through them at the end of the tribulation.. ( Isa 2:3 Roman 11:15

[Brother Duke]

38 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Angels4u began this topic. And what follows is a number of speculations as to who the 144,000 are. Pretty much all those who propose a pre-trib rapture say that the 144,000 are tribulation preachers/evangelists who are sealed before or at the time of tribulation, and these witness to the world, along side or at the same time of the two witnesses. I have asked for scriptural support for these scenarios, but none is given.

Hi JoeCanada,

I am not pre-trib but there is scripture that can show that the 144,000 are witnesses.  The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel.

Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isaiah 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The People of Israel are God's witnesses.

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

Israel is the Olive Tree

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Israel is the two witnesses and the two olive trees.

 

 

[Heleadethme]

15 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi JoeCanada,

I am not pre-trib but there is scripture that can show that the 144,000 are witnesses.  The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel.

Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isaiah 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The People of Israel are God's witnesses.

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

Israel is the Olive Tree

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Israel is the two witnesses and the two olive trees.

 

 

I think you are close here.....if we think in terms of the Israel of God, then we have it.  Jew & Gentile......one new man made up of two (witnesses).  And we should let scripture interpret itself, in terms of symbolism.  Rev. 21 gives us more clues about the 144,000.  Measurements of New Jerusalem are four-square........her walls and foundations are 12 x 12 (12 squared = 144) .  Jesus said the gospel would be preached (witnessed) in all the earth and then the end would come.  There might be more to it, but I'm pretty sure this is at least part of what is meant by the 144,000 and the two witnesses.

[Brother Duke]

29 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

I think you are close here.....if we think in terms of the Israel of God, then we have it.  Jew & Gentile......one new man made up of two (witnesses).  And we should let scripture interpret itself, in terms of symbolism.  Rev. 21 gives us more clues about the 144,000.  Measurements of New Jerusalem are four-square........her walls and foundations are 12 x 12 (12 squared = 144) .  Jesus said the gospel would be preached (witnessed) in all the earth and then the end would come.  There might be more to it, but I'm pretty sure this is at least part of what is meant by the 144,000 and the two witnesses.

Hi Heleadethme,

From scripture we see Israel is God's witness, not the gentiles.  Seeing the 144,000 we see they are from all the tribes of Israel not just the Jews.  How does the one people of Israel become two witnesses?  Easy,  they were divided into two nations or two kingdoms after Solomon sinned.  The Southern Kingdom called Judah; consisting of the Jews and Benjamin along with Levites and the Northern Kingdom represented by the names of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim and consisting of the other tribes of Israel.  These two kingdoms are promised the new covenant.   The gentiles are grafted into Israel and are also inheritors of that promise.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As for the math with New Jerusalem it is actually a cube. 

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Brother Duke