Not me Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,184 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 3,349 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: My question is, "do you believe that God predestines only some to salvation?" You seem to be dancing around the central issue and trying to sound spiritual but not really addressing the issue at hand. Please read my first post in this thread which is the fourth post down. You will be able to see and read how I understand man’s predestination and man’s free will. Much love in Christ, Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,036 Content Per Day: 7.97 Reputation: 21,380 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 5, 2018 11 hours ago, Butero said: Those scriptures prove free will is just an illusion. You can only come to God if the Father reveals his Son to you. Unless God chooses to do that, you will never be saved. The fact some do not come to the faith proves this isn't speaking of everyone ever born. The fact that God 'IS' and says all men are brought into account for what He has made gives you no foundation for your belief Romans 1:18 (KJV) [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, The literal judgment of God begins with the obvious fact that He 'IS' AND note it is with all people who has ever lived here! "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," note also they are at this point because of their own choosing... for God says they are without excuse just by witness of His Creation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted June 5, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,241 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,842 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2018 13 hours ago, Butero said: Those scriptures prove free will is just an illusion. You can only come to God if the Father reveals his Son to you. Unless God chooses to do that, you will never be saved. The fact some do not come to the faith proves this isn't speaking of everyone ever born. God did choose to do that. He said so. The sower of seeds sowed upon all soil. He did not choose just the good soil. All soil had opportunity. Whosoever will. The seed, (the word), is how the Father reveals the Son. One tiny seed I received from a sower/preacher fell upon ready soil, and grew, as more word was received (watered, fed, nourished) That seed came alive within, and I was born. Again. I don't know why I thought differently, and others not. The soil? I do know the word caused me to change the way I had been thinking, (repented) and I slowly changed my desires. I sought out more 'word', and I changed. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word. In the beginning was the word, and the word WAS GOD........... For God so loved the world, that whosoever.......... Kinda foolish, discussing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 14 minutes ago, Butero said: Even though God created us knowing all we will ever do, we are still held responsible for our actions. That's right. Because God knowing what we will do, doesn't mean that He scripted what we will do. God can't force you to sin and then judge you for sinning. It doesn't work like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, Butero said: Someone needed to tell that to Judas Iscariot whose ending was all scripted right there in Old Testament prophecies. It was prophesied, not scripted. Quote You said that God "can't force you to sin and then judge you for sinning." Why? He is God. He can do anything he wants to. Are you going to tell God what he can and cannot do? God cannot do "anything." There are lots of things God cannot do. God cannot lie. God cannot fornicate. God cannot sin. God is just and cannot be unjust. Forcing you to sin and then judging for that sin isn't just and so God would never do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Butero said: If it was possible for Judas Iscariot to do anything other than what was prophesied, it would make God out as a liar, and you just said God cannot lie. Your doctrine makes no sense. Judas did what he did of his own free will. God knew it would happen and prophesied accordingly. That's all it really is. It is not a scripting. If a parent forced their child to commit a sin, and then punished them for it, we would call it abuse. God does not abuse us like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, Butero said: God can do anything he wants for any reason he wants. God cannot do anything that violates his sinless nature. God cannot sin. Quote He put in the law of Moses that adulterers were to be put to death, but he pardoned David. He had a man put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, but he made an exception for David's adultery and murder. Yes, he can force someone to do something and punish them for doing it, but that is not exactly what is going on. He created people knowing all they would do, and that was not going to change, but the people still went through the motions and made the decisions to carry it out. It was scripted, but they still did it. No, none of it was scripted. That is just your false doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joulre2abba Posted June 6, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 463 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/08/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2018 On 6/4/2018 at 8:34 PM, Butero said: Those scriptures prove free will is just an illusion. You can only come to God if the Father reveals his Son to you. Unless God chooses to do that, you will never be saved. The fact some do not come to the faith proves this isn't speaking of everyone ever born. Then I guess that a number of scripture verses are wrong. How many did Jesus die for? Everyone. How many does God desire to be saved? Everyone. Is God a respecter of persons? No. The person that doesn't get saved, doesn't because they make their choice not to. Why? Because the god of this world blinds them. But even their eyes can be opened as evidenced by the number of atheists that have accepted and received Jesus as their Savior. It's unfortunate that the Calvinist doctrine uses scripture to make a choice against sinners, to make God the reason why certain people.. loved ones don't get saved. That doctrine is saying that God's unconditional love is conditional. It makes God's grace not able to abound against sin. And it furthers an attitude of hatred against God who (according to Calvinist doctrine) chooses to accept some but not all. However, that doctrine is in direct contrast with the bible which puts the blame where it belongs, on the devil who has been deceiving since the garden of Eden. The Calvinist doctrine is a man's explanation, it's not God's truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Butero said: There is false doctrine being spread, but not from me. God is not limited in any way. He can do anything he wants. God can do anything He wants. The false doctrine that is being spread is that God wants to create people in order to destroy them, that God wants or ordain people to reject Jesus, and that God wants people to go to Hell. It is false teaching to say that God wants to script people to be sinners and idoators and abortionists and so on. The truth is that God can do anything He wants, but God doesn't want any of the garbage you claim He wants. Furthermore, you imply that God can sin, which He can't. Quote Do you want to be the one to tell God he can't do something? Who is going to enforce it, you? I am not telling God what to do. I am telling you that God doesn't do the garbage you assign to Him. Quote Do you even have a clue what scripted means? yes, I do and you made it very clear that life is a book that God writes and we are all characters and we have no choice but to do what God has scripted us to do. More false teaching, by the way. Quote Anyone can go back to the Old Testament and read about all Judas Iscariot will do. He does it. When a movie is produced, there is this thing called paper with writing on it telling what the actors will do. When they follow it, that is called following the script. It's not following a script the way YOU present it. Your presentation has always been about God predetermining every action and we have no choice but to do what God what God has predetermined we will do. That's not in the Bible, but it is what you are trying peddle on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, Butero said: I just showed it was in the Bible that Judas Iscariot would betray the Lord, the amount he would betray him for, how he would return the money, it would be used to purchase the Potter's field, and Judas would kill himself. That is a script. No, it is not. It is a prophecy. Nothing in the Bible supports any notion that the sovereignty of God involves scripting and predetermining how people act and behave. Quote What do you mean it is not a script the way I present it? A script is a script. It is written out what Judas would do, a script, and he followed the script to the letter. There is nothing complicated here. It's not complicated because it is not a "script." Quote It was written in the Bible that Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Peter followed the script and denied the Lord three times. Again, do you even understand what scripted means? I know exactly what it means, and the Bible doesn't present prophecy as a "script" and it doesn't present God's sovereignty as having every action and thought and event already predetermined. The whole "script" thing is something you have subjectively assigned to Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts