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scriptural support for free will belief


ayin jade

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3 hours ago, Butero said:

Once the Lord said it, those things had to happen.  There is no getting around that, unless the Lord can lie.  If Jesus could look ahead and see what Peter would do, Peter couldn't do anything about it.  That thing was scripted and would come to pass.  

I realize this is hard for some to deal with.  It leads to reactionary comments, like the one I just addressed where all the other person could do was misuse a scripture about God not being the author of confusion.  God created the plan of salvation, which involved people rejecting his Son and nailing him to a cross.  That means he looked down the road and planned for these events to take place.  He intended that people would do something sinful, reject Christ and kill him, and this was the method of saving people.  And don't bother to say they didn't kill him, but he chose to suffer this fate.  Of course he did, but these people sinned in rejecting him and nailing him to the cross.  If some want to call this being the author of sin because it helps them create an emotional response, have at it, but all of those events were scripted.  They were going to happen.  Pilot was going to sentence Jesus to die.  

At least he is posting scripture. All I see from your posts is your opinions/interpretations and zero scripture. Which I specifically asked for in this thread. 

If all I continue to see in this thread is post after post without scripture, then as the op, I will shut it down and ask for it to be deleted. I want to see less of the words of men and more of the words of God in support of what folks believe. Iron sharpens iron, but its done with a discussion of scripture, not a discussion that is only the opinions of each individual. 

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5 hours ago, Butero said:

The Bible states that nobody can come to the Son unless the Father reveals him to that person. 

Jesus said that the Father hides them from the intelligent but reveals them to babes. And also said, you must become as a little child. James said receive with meekness the word which is able to save your soul. While the Psalmist said lean not to your own understanding but trust in the Lord with all your heart. And the entrance of His word gives light and understanding to the simple.

Jesus said he spoke in parables that certain individuals would not understand what he was saying and be converted and saved.  When Jesus died on the cross, that was sufficient to save everyone, yet everyone is not saved because God doesn't reveal his Son to everyone.  

Even God cannot reveal his Son to someone who refuses to be enlightened.. such as those of the last chapter of Acts.. the same verses are used there, saying that their heart is become dull and their ears scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and the Lord should heal them. That word says that they closed their ears and eyes to prevent understanding and thereby be healed. The verse above that says some were being persuaded by the things spoken but others would not believe. Again, they would not believe. God was not preventing them.

Evangelists and preachers today nor likely the first century apostles that preached the word spoke in parables. In Acts Phillip expounded concerning Jesus from Isaiah 53 that the Ethiopian eunuch was reading, which resulted in him making the confessed belief that Jesus is the Son of God and was baptized in water. Backing up.. Phillip asked him do you understand what you are reading? and the eunuch replied with humility saying how could I unless someone guides me?

It is unfortunate that people that have no understanding of scripture come in here and try to teach.  All they have is a general idea of things they believe in their own mind, but the fruit of knowledge is lacking in them.  I am not speaking of myself. 

Neither are you speaking of me.

I am not a follower of Calvin or any other man.  This doctrine is found right in the pages of the Bible. 

The reason why some receive and some don't is not by God's choice. Calvin says otherwise. Therefore the doctrine is cherry picked from the bible.

I would suggest that unconditional eternal security is a perverted type of Calvinism.  They just took the perseverance of the saints message and perverted it to take the power away from God and make it about a decision they made, making them their own saviors.  

The power that causes salvation is God's part. The power of the will to choose is man's part. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but if the horse is thirsty then he will drink. There are many examples in the bible of people who refused to obey God, even the Jews. The refusal is evidence of the power of man's will to choose.

Ephesians says that salvation is by grace, the gift of God, not of works lest anyman should boast. Therefore man cannot be his own Savior. Calvin doesn't see that.. because he exercised the power of his will in choosing not to. He built his doctrine on the supposed idea that believing is somehow taking power away from God. But no, for it says that God has given.. given.. given everyman the measure of faith, and Jesus told those listening to him to have faith in God. They all have to choose to do so.

They all, we all have to lean not to their/our own understanding and trust in the Lord with all their/our heart. We all have to believe and receive Jesus as our Savior. God in all his power has done everything else for us but that.

 

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Guest shiloh357
3 hours ago, Running Gator said:

So, after Jesus spoke the words did Peter still have the freedom to not deny Jesus? Could he have changed his mind after that point?

It's not an issue of freedom, per se.   It's more of an issue of Jesus knowing what Peter would do because Jesus knew what Peter would experience that would lead him to do what he did.    It is similar (although not identical) to the way we know how loved ones will react to certain things in certain circumstances.   We know them well enough to know that given a particular set of circumstances or events, how they will respond. 

Jesus knew in advance that Peter would face three people that would identify him as a follower of Jesus and He knew that Peter, out of fear and out of a natural sense of self-preservation would deny Him.   Jesus knew Peter was not nearly as courageous as he thought himself to be. 

Did Peter have the freedom to go a different route?   Yes, but it was not in His will to NOT deny Jesus in that given moment, given the possibility that he could be arrested and face the same fate as Jesus.  Peter forgot his pledge to Jesus in the upper room until it was too late. 

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Guest shiloh357
1 minute ago, Butero said:

You have no problem with suggesting God can lie. 

I never said any such thing.  God knows the future because he is omniscient, not because He predetermines every action of every person.  

Quote

If he can say something will happen, yet it may not, like in the case of Judas Iscariot, you are saying you have no problem with God telling lies. 

No, God's omniscience precludes that from happening.   But that is an aspect of the Doctrine of God that you have likely never really spent much time studying.

Quote

He cannot be trusted in your unbiblical world.  Your position makes no sense. 

Of course He can be trusted.  God is never wrong.   If God says it will happen, it will happen.

Quote

Now, you want to say that "God does ordain some events to take place."  I am glad you admit that.  Your next comment is interesting.  You said, "it does not follow that all events, all actions, all choices are predetermined by God."  There is no reason some would and others wouldn't be, especially when you admit God knows everything.  

The problem is that you are abandoning biblical doctrine for a secular concept of hard determination.   You are not really studying or paying any attention to what the Bible says about the interplay between between God's sovereignty and human free will. 

Here are verses that prove that not all choices, actions are predetermined by God.

As for free will, God gives people the right to choose:

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. 
(Deu 11:26-28)

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. 
(Deu 30:19-20)

And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God. 
(Jos 24:1)


And if you stop and think about, giving us commandments and calling us to obey make no sense if we have no free will.  The very giving of commandments and exhortations and admonitions are meaningless apart from our willingness to obey:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
(Gal 5:16-17)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
(Jas 1:13-14)

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 
(Mar 8:34)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 
(Joh 3:16)

 

Believing, following, denying yourself, walking in the Spirit are all freewill actions.   

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1 hour ago, Butero said:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father:  and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.  Matthew 11:27

The word is "whomsoever" it does not say "only to certain that the Son will reveal himself to those who are worthy." No, for the scripture says there is none righteous, no not one. The scripture says that Jesus is the righteous who took the place of all sinners- the unrighteous.

In the parable of the sower that sows the word, the sower seeded every kind of ground, the hard ground, the thorny ground, the stony ground, and the good ground. For God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim.2:4

And Simon answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  Matthew 16:16,17

Is this offered to say that God exclusively revealed to Peter who Jesus is? That no other person told him? It's not so exclusive as is thought. When Jesus was picking out his disciples Nathaniel in John 1:49 without prompting declared that he's the Son of God. And Martha told Jesus that she believed that he is the Son of God.  

John 1:12 says as many as received him to them he gave the right to become children of even those who believe in His name. They receive.. it's not that God selects some and not others.
Mrk 16:15 he said to them, Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all creatures/people. And Lk.19:10 the Son has come to seek and save those who are lost. That is everybody.

The disciples of Jesus and all the Jews that lived in a religious culture were looking for the promised Messiah. He fulfilled the prophecies like riding on a donkey, like doing miracles. The pharisees didn't believe that he was the Son of God but most others did.
The resurrected Jesus sent the apostle Paul to preach in order that peoples eyes be opened and be turned from darkness to light and be delivered from the dominion of satan.. having faith in Jesus. Acts 26:18

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:  that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.  John 15:16

Is that offered to somehow erase or nullify what is said in Josh.24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve.

Isa.56:4 for this is what the LORD says: to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant.
Isa.7:15 he will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.
Ps.25:12 who, then, are those who fear the LORD? He will instruct them in the ways they should choose.

John 15:16 is not a conversion statement that should be used to say that a person is incapable of making a choice to be saved. But it's rather a calling into ministry. Just in case any of them had some lofty idea that they were special enough to deserve getting called to go out into the world with the message of salvation, Jesus let them know that they were not. He told them that they needed to be ordained in order to bring forth fruit.

John 15:4-5 remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

A similar scripture to Jn.15:16 is 1 John 4:9-10 this is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

We none of us initiated the plan of salvation, we none of us informed God as if we knew and he didn't that we needed salvation as the solution for our sins.

The ability to choose goes the other way too. Prov.1:29 since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD.

 

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Guest shiloh357
10 hours ago, Butero said:

@ayin jade

Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.  And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.  And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?  And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:  but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!  it had been good for that man if he had not been born.  Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I?  He said unto him, Thou hast said.  Matthew 26:20-25

And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear.  So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.  Zechariah 11:12

Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests.  And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you?  And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.  And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.  Matthew 26:1-16

And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.  Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is he:  hold him fast.  Matthew 26:47,48

And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter:  a goodly price that I was prised at of them.  And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.  Zechariah 11:13

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood.  And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.  And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.  And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.  And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.  Matthew 27:3-7

Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.  Psalm 69:25

Let his days be few; and let another take his office.  Psalm 109:8

Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.  Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.  And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.  For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein:  and his bishoprick let another take.  Acts 1:16-20

None of that is an argument against free will.   Rather, those Scriptures argue FOR the faithfulness of God  and the integrity and trustworthiness of Scripture/fulfilled prophecy.

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13 hours ago, Butero said:

I was asked by Ayin Jade to provide scripture to back up what I said and I did.  The Word means what it says.  I am not going through the wearisome process of arguing interpretations back and forth with you.  That is the typical response.  Someone offers scripture and another person claims they are misinterpreting it, and that is supposed to be the last word.  Well it isn't.  The Word is perfect, and anyone disputing it is in error, but when it comes to interpretation, that is quite another matter.  

Oh, then forgive me for thinking that your post of scriptures was your willingness to go for another round of exchange of perspectives on them.

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Guest shiloh357
50 minutes ago, Butero said:

It backs up that God stated what Judas would do before he carried it out and he followed the script.  Ayin Jade wanted scripture to back it up so I gave it to her.  

But that is not a script.   You keep assigning that value to it, but the Bible does not teach that life is a script. 

What you are doing, and doing unsuccessfully, is you are inferring that life is a script and that biblical prophecy is a "script."  But you cannot produce ONE shred of doctrinal evidence from Scripture that says that God scripts our lives and/or that He scripts everything that happens.    You are trying force that value on to the text.    It's all about you trying to infer something and then treating that like it's biblical.

On the other hand.  I have posted and re-posted the Scriptures where God commands people to choose, to make a decision:   "Therefore choose life"  and "Choose this day whom you will serve."   Those not illusions.   Those are things God actually said and meant.   He gave His people options to choose from, to exercise free will.   I can actually post direct evidence, and you cannot.   All you can do is post fulfilled prophecy and call it something that it is not.

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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, Not me said:

Scripture says;

Ephesians 1:5 (NASB)
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

The fact that is says we were predestined “through or by” Jesus Christ means we were predestined not because of us, but because of something else, that something else being,  we are in possession of the life of Jesus Christ. For it is the Life of Christ that is predestined to glory and honor, and whosoever that life is found in. That person is predestined by virtue of being in possession of Jesus Christ. 

For this is the “life” that was put before man, that he may choose or not choose. The life of Christ. 

Much love in Christ, Not me

The mystery is God uses His foreknowledge but does not define His basis of it's use…  

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

KJV
It is the place where my reason wars with my reason and waiting upon God the only solace I have...for now...my expectation in this

1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

KJV
I know by this statement when the resolve of my heart will be...

 

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 3:49 PM, Butero said:

Someone needed to tell that to Judas Iscariot whose ending was all scripted right there in Old Testament prophecies.  

You said that God "can't force you to sin and then judge you for sinning."  Why?  He is God.  He can do anything he wants to.  Are you going to tell God what he can and cannot do?  

To hold title of Holy & Righteous there can be no sin either in mind or action … in fact there can't even  be a place for it within being!
This is where the Scripture should answer for you but is not...? It gives the family here pause with good reason! 
Isa 5:16
16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
Revelation 16:5 (KJV)
[5] And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

and in fact He will not even allow in His Eye Gate
Habakkuk 1:13 (KJV)
[13] Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

 

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:12 PM, Butero said:

If it was possible for Judas Iscariot to do anything other than what was prophesied, it would make God out as a liar, and you just said God cannot lie.  Your doctrine makes no sense.  

The problem is one of reason... You are using your reason to form God in you and >instead< you are to use Scripture to form The God of His Word in you! We are to understand God when He defines for us areas needful -precept upon precept each a build to another precept upon precept line upon line..
You want to place everything in a neat little package in your compartmental knowledge base -being in your thinking 'if a thing is then God is responsible of it'... However the Scriptures state

Isaiah 46:10 (KJV)
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

adding to above reason this precept
Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV)
[11] Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

One may conclude by the witness of God of His own heart about this
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yet many go into perdition outside of God's will that they do not... the same must be for Judas as well. You have God doing what He, Himself, is not willing so where does that leave you?

 

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:23 PM, Butero said:

God can do anything he wants for any reason he wants.  He put in the law of Moses that adulterers were to be put to death, but he pardoned David.  He had a man put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, but he made an exception for David's adultery and murder.  Yes, he can force someone to do something and punish them for doing it, but that is not exactly what is going on.  He created people knowing all they would do, and that was not going to change, but the people still went through the motions and made the decisions to carry it out.  It was scripted, but they still did it. 

Until you resolve the issue that sin is not a created thing of God but only lucifer's perversion of God through lie, fathered in himself, so to enable him to rebel (come against God) which is ludicrous... you will remain in the convoluted error you are in.
 

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:42 AM, Butero said:

Perhaps you want to be the one to tell God there are things he just cannot do?  We weren't even discussing sin.  I was saying that what Judas Iscariot did was scripted, and Shiloh denies that, even though I can pull the script right out of the Old Testament and show that Judas Iscariot followed it.  Any 3rd grader should be able to understand it after I take the time to show them the script and read it to them, followed by his actions.  Do any of you even understand what a script is?  I am beginning to wonder.  

I will worship Him in The Who of Him- HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, CREATOR... FULL OF MERCY WITHOUT END for I am there to do so of the will He has given me as I will unto His Will! To use sin in anything as to created place is to convolute the fact that hell was created after the fact of creation itself for the devil and his followers... your neat little package of compartmentalized foreknowledge 'scripted' is in direct conflict with what God has given witness of His Own Heart (above) … To say God cannot sin in not limitation but true freedom expressed in God's own nature... for it is written
John 8:34 (KJV)
[34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
  {do you suppose the creation of it would be the same as the doing?]
[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:27 AM, Butero said:

Clearly, God planned for Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.  This was his plan.  Arrangements were made for this to take place, unless you think the entire plan of salvation could have been thwarted.  Did God plan it or didn't he?  When Jesus told everyone that the one that dipped with him would betray him, was that just a prophecy that could be prevented?  How can that be if Jesus is God and God cannot lie?  

Here you have God planning the sin... this would entail God taking part in the sin and according to these Scriptures >being sin<
Proverbs 23:7 (KJV)
[7] For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Matthew 5:27 (KJV)
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
[29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
[30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

In your own writing you have made God a hypocrite for He judges man even for the thinking of sin yet you have God making in thought man to do it....
 

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:45 AM, Butero said:

Once Jesus said it would happen, Peter really had no choice, unless you believe God can lie.  Why don't you explain to us how Peter could fail to do something Jesus stated he would do without God being a liar?  While you are at it, explain how Judas Iscariot could fail to do what Jesus said he would do without God being a liar?  What does sovereignty have to do with anything?  I am speaking of whether or not God lies.  

combine

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:58 AM, Butero said:

If you can't see the problems with what you are teaching, and how Judas being able to do things contrary to what the Lord said would make God out not only as the author of sin, but a liar, I can't help you.  Your doctrine makes no sense, so this is all you could come up with.  

combine

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:35 AM, Running Gator said:

So, after Jesus spoke the words did Peter still have the freedom to not deny Jesus? Could he have changed his mind after that point?

Where God speaks from is from timelessness
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

We can only, in our flesh, reason within the boundaries of time, past, present, future... which if one really gives thought to our concepts of it -there is no present- for it constantly moves in an unmeasurable fashion from future to past and in the instant of 'IS' = present and has no meter! God being infinite simply exist in the 'IS' where no meter can exist... So when God speaks He does so from His perspective and not our own leaving only the outside of created realities His reality... He existing or being in The New Born of God this
1 Corinthians 2:10 (KJV)
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

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42 minutes ago, Butero said:

It backs up that God stated what Judas would do before he carried it out and he followed the script.  Ayin Jade wanted scripture to back it up so I gave it to her.  

That's just it- God said what he would do and He does not say I made him do … a vast distinction wouldn't you say?

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