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scriptural support for free will belief


ayin jade

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2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I don't see where it says God didn't know...just that He saw what Adam would name them. ..He already knew.

Exactly .  When GOD asked CAIN where is your brother .   HE already knew .    HE told him HIS BLOOD cries out from the earth .   

JESUS did this too at times , even though HE KNEW .    NOW on that note ,   YEAH,  its time to PRAISE THE LORD again .    It aint ever too early to praise the LORD .

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43 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I don't see where it says God didn't know...just that He saw what Adam would name them. ..He already knew.

Interesting; yet another explaintion.

much love in Christ, Not me

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All  those animal names.....Adam must have been getting desperate when he pulled “aardvark” out of his, er ah ......hat.   Lol

 

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2 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

All  those animal names.....Adam must have been getting desperate when he pulled “aardvark” out of his, er ah ......hat.   Lol

 

Heee heee, :)

much love in Christ, Not me

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On 6/4/2018 at 8:33 PM, ayin jade said:

There has been a lot of calvinist bashing lately. So I thought instead of bashing calvinism, why not show scriptural support for the belief in free will instead of bashing the view. So please explain, via scripture, why free will is true.

The bible states:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

Quote

why not show scriptural support for the belief in free will instead of bashing the view.

If the question: Does human have free will ?.

The answer surely:  Yes, he or she does.

But this free will is framed in literal dimension, works for everything during their life in this earth then after that surely over / will never does anything for eternity/ will never does any contribution for their salvation unless the salvation shall never be the God grace alone .

 

Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Our righteousnesses are surely rooted to our will , right?, if those all just are like filthy rags , then will its make any contribution?.

Isa26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us

So surely God Himself who makes something divine within us , so surely -------> the salvation is by God Grace alone .

Phl2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

 

We should know first that the realm where we live is a temporary realm , so not fit for spirit to inhabit/man’s spirit is not a natural product of this earth  , our spirits reside within our bodies surely are His chosen ( chosen before the creation of the world ) , which were sent to sojourn/wander to this perishable world for our growths by then we can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ) because there is no growth in eternal realm.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

( God put spiritually being within Israelis for OT, and spiritually Israelis for NT , never put His in to born of flesh people ).

1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Rom9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(one vessel unto honour = e.g. Physically Jacob ; another unto dishonor = e.g. Physically Esau )

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

(the vessels of wrath = devil resides inside the born of flesh John8:44 ; tares Mat 13: 38-39 )

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

(the vessels of mercy = the chosen : Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, ……., Noah, ………, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,…….Us, last name in the book of life  = The children of kingdom Mat 13:38 = us = spiritually beings which were put in to our body (when we were born Zec12:1 , Jer1:5) /our spirit for sojourning = came from above John17:14 ).

We can imagine :

If spiritually being is not a naturally product of the earth such there is no spirit within animal , then it is logic that every spirit which inhabit here for awhile surely God Himself who put them to reside within His Chosen and all which were driven out from heaven (devils) .

How can these spiritually beings go back to heaven from this earth ? by their own efforts/will ? can men make their own vehicle bringing them back to heaven ?  impossible.

This is the basic understanding of “Salvation is by God Grace alone “ = shall God Himself who take them back ( depend on His Charity alone ).

Who shall He take back to heaven if He did not put them before ?, this is the basic understanding of the Chosen  .

So humans have no free will in spiritually dimension , humans only have negative will in spiritually dimension ( Rom3:10-12).

Edited by adhidw
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Guest shiloh357
1 hour ago, adhidw said:

If the question: Does human have free will ?.

The answer surely:  Yes, he or she does.

But this free will is framed in literal dimension, works for everything during their life in this earth then after that surely over / will never does anything for eternity/ will never does any contribution for their salvation unless the salvation shall never be the God grace alone .

 

Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Our righteousnesses are surely rooted to our will , right?, if those all just are like filthy rags , then will its make any contribution?.

Isa26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us

So surely God Himself who makes something divine within us , so surely -------> the salvation is by God Grace alone .

Phl2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

I don't think anyone here believes we are saved by free will or that free contributes to salvation.

We should know first that the realm where we live is a temporary realm , so not fit for spirit to inhabit/man’s spirit is not a natural product of this earth  , our spirits reside within our bodies surely are His chosen ( chosen before the creation of the world ) , which were sent to sojourn/wander to this perishable world for our growths by then we can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ) because there is no growth in eternal realm.

Quote

So surely God Himself who makes something divine within us , so surely -------> the salvation is by God Grace alone .

God does not make anything "divine" within us.   It appears that English is not your mother tongue, so I am hoping you didn't mean that the way it sounds.

Quote

 

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

( God put spiritually being within Israelis for OT, and spiritually Israelis for NT , never put His in to born of flesh people ).

 

No, that is not what Zechariah 12:1 is saying. All it is saying that is that God made our souls/spirits.  And how are you differentiating between Israelis vs. "born of flesh" people? 

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1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Rom9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

(one vessel unto honour = e.g. Physically Jacob ; another unto dishonor = e.g. Physically Esau )

 

Romans 9 is not about salvation from sin; it is not a treatise on salvation, like Eph 2 or John 3.   If you read the whole chapter, Romans 9 is Paul's defense of God's sovereignty over Israel to use them as He did,  according to His purpose, namely to bring uncircumcised Gentiles into the Kingdom of God.  Romans 9 is not about service, not salvation. The potter metaphor is about using us as HE will according to His purpose.

Quote

 

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

(the vessels of wrath = devil resides inside the born of flesh John8:44 ; tares Mat 13: 38-39 )

 

That is not what that means.  The devil does not inhabit anyone.   That is wrong.  The vessels of wrath are fitted to destruction because they fitted themselves to that end.   The word "fitted" in the Greek is in the middle voice,  and the middle voice refers to action we take upon ourselves that affects our interests for the good, or for the bad.  

 

Quote

 

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

(the vessels of mercy = the chosen : Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, ……., Noah, ………, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,…….Us, last name in the book of life  = The children of kingdom Mat 13:38 = us = spiritually beings which were put in to our body (when we were born Zec12:1 , Jer1:5) /our spirit for sojourning = came from above John17:14 ).

 

The contrast is that the vessels of mercy are prepared by God for His glory.  But the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction.   Those who are the vessels of wrath (those who are under judgment) fitted themselves for that end, but those who received and chose to the Gospel, their ultimate end is glory that God has prepared for those who He knows will accept Him.

 

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6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't think anyone here believes we are saved by free will or that free contributes to salvation.

We should know first that the realm where we live is a temporary realm , so not fit for spirit to inhabit/man’s spirit is not a natural product of this earth  , our spirits reside within our bodies surely are His chosen ( chosen before the creation of the world ) , which were sent to sojourn/wander to this perishable world for our growths by then we can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ) because there is no growth in eternal realm.

God does not make anything "divine" within us.   It appears that English is not your mother tongue, so I am hoping you didn't mean that the way it sounds.

No, that is not what Zechariah 12:1 is saying. All it is saying that is that God made our souls/spirits.  And how are you differentiating between Israelis vs. "born of flesh" people? 

Romans 9 is not about salvation from sin; it is not a treatise on salvation, like Eph 2 or John 3.   If you read the whole chapter, Romans 9 is Paul's defense of God's sovereignty over Israel to use them as He did,  according to His purpose, namely to bring uncircumcised Gentiles into the Kingdom of God.  Romans 9 is not about service, not salvation. The potter metaphor is about using us as HE will according to His purpose.

That is not what that means.  The devil does not inhabit anyone.   That is wrong.  The vessels of wrath are fitted to destruction because they fitted themselves to that end.   The word "fitted" in the Greek is in the middle voice,  and the middle voice refers to action we take upon ourselves that affects our interests for the good, or for the bad.  

 

The contrast is that the vessels of mercy are prepared by God for His glory.  But the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction.   Those who are the vessels of wrath (those who are under judgment) fitted themselves for that end, but those who received and chose to the Gospel, their ultimate end is glory that God has prepared for those who He knows will accept Him.

 

Quote

I don't think anyone here believes we are saved by free will or that free contributes to salvation.

So , there is no any role of humans “will” in humans salvation , right?.

By then the premise “ salvation is by God’s Grace alone “ surely works properly .

This is absolutely right.

Because this is actually the purpose of creation.

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

Isa43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise

Then God starts to send gradually His people/ names written in His book of life before the creation of the world/the chosen to sojourn to this earth.

Some questions we need to answer:

What was the realm when this earth not yet formed ?.

How difficult for God created them all at once ?, if not then there surely were some plans about His people to not being created at once, -------> growths.

Let’s see:

Rom8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

 

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God does not make anything "divine" within us.   It appears that English is not your mother tongue, so I am hoping you didn't mean that the way it sounds.

If so then the salvation is a achievement for the saved , right?, then the verses below surely will not work properly ?.

Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away

 

Phl2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

So men will never be able to bring glory to God,  because actually the glory is deserve for men also that still have” will “ where  in their sight that by their own will they still can make some things divine ( God does not make anything “divine” )within them, ----> in their sights they still can seek God, they still can obey God , right? , why then they were driven out from Eden , didn’t they surely still can obey to not ate the fruits of the tree of life intentionally ?.

 

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No, that is not what Zechariah 12:1 is saying. All it is saying that is that God made our souls/spirits.  And how are you differentiating between Israelis vs. "born of flesh" people? 

If the purpose actually is : “ bring Glory to God “ , so there should work the premise “ salvation is by God’s Grace alone “ This premise can stand firmly if there is  the chosen where these very people is totally different with the common people / born of flesh John1:12-13 / dust Gen3:14 /not written in the book of life before the creation of the world / equated as animals Ecc3:19 /  likened as the swine  in Mark5:12  , where these born of flesh people one day are possible to be the devil’s camp e.g. John8:44 , also see Luk11:24-26 , Mat13:38-39 .

 

 

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That is not what that means.  The devil does not inhabit anyone.   That is wrong.  The vessels of wrath are fitted to destruction because they fitted themselves to that end.   The word "fitted" in the Greek is in the middle voice,  and the middle voice refers to action we take upon ourselves that affects our interests for the good, or for the bad.

 

If so then, how can there be devil who transform to be the angel of light ?, how can there be antichrist ?, How can the devil shall be judged Rev20:12 what are the evidences for suing them ?, how can we judge the devil/angel 1cor6:3 , how can this earth will end ?.

 

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Luk11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first

 

Mat13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels

 


 

Quote

 

The contrast is that the vessels of mercy are prepared by God for His glory.  But the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction.   Those who are the vessels of wrath (those who are under judgment) fitted themselves for that end, but those who received and chose to the Gospel, their ultimate end is glory that God has prepared for those who He knows will accept Him.

 

 

 

 

2Pet2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Which is said in Rom9:22 such vessels of wrath.

 

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Guest shiloh357
50 minutes ago, adhidw said:

So , there is no any role of humans “will” in humans salvation , right?.

By then the premise “ salvation is by God’s Grace alone “ surely works properly .

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. 

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If so then the salvation is a achievement for the saved , right?, then the verses below surely will not work properly ?.

I was just responding to what sounded like you were saying that God imparts divinity within us.   

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If so then, how can there be devil who transform to be the angel of light ?, how can there be antichrist ?, How can the devil shall be judged Rev20:12 what are the evidences for suing them ?, how can we judge the devil/angel 1cor6:3 , how can this earth will end ?.

I was responding to your claim that the Devil resides in the vessels of wrath.   I was not saying that they cannot be possessed by demons.  Satan  cannot be inhabiting every unsaved person because Satan is not omnipresent.    And not all sinners are possessed by demons.   You appeared to describe all unsaved people as possessed by Satan and that is simply not true.

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Which is said in Rom9:22 such vessels of wrath.

The examples of vessels of wrath given in Romans 9 are people who actively rebelled against God, who in their rebellion, made themselves fit for destruction.

Those are not the same as the vessels of dishonor.   God uses all of us for more or less noble purposes.  Just like the potter can take a lump of clay and make into a beautiful vase that will sit in Kensington Palace, the same lump of clay could also become nothing but a common, everyday water pitcher.  It is up to the potter who is sovereign over the clay.  God uses some people as evangelists, and some people God uses as a car repair man.  He uses and gifts us according to His purposes for us.

Paul is defending God's sovereignty over Israel to use them as He did for His purposes.  That is what Romans 9 is about if you read the whole chapter.  It is not a treatise on salvation.

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6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. 

I was just responding to what sounded like you were saying that God imparts divinity within us.   

I was responding to your claim that the Devil resides in the vessels of wrath.   I was not saying that they cannot be possessed by demons.  Satan  cannot be inhabiting every unsaved person because Satan is not omnipresent.    And not all sinners are possessed by demons.   You appeared to describe all unsaved people as possessed by Satan and that is simply not true.

The examples of vessels of wrath given in Romans 9 are people who actively rebelled against God, who in their rebellion, made themselves fit for destruction.

Those are not the same as the vessels of dishonor.   God uses all of us for more or less noble purposes.  Just like the potter can take a lump of clay and make into a beautiful vase that will sit in Kensington Palace, the same lump of clay could also become nothing but a common, everyday water pitcher.  It is up to the potter who is sovereign over the clay.  God uses some people as evangelists, and some people God uses as a car repair man.  He uses and gifts us according to His purposes for us.

Paul is defending God's sovereignty over Israel to use them as He did for His purposes.  That is what Romans 9 is about if you read the whole chapter.  It is not a treatise on salvation.

Quote

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone.

Agreed.

 

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I was just responding to what sounded like you were saying that God imparts divinity within us.

All of us (our spirits that reside within Us ) / His people/ the chosen start from zero state means : have no knowledge have no ability , we surely will be zero state forever if we are not sent to sojourn to this earth for our growth ( there is no any role that we can play in this state ), by sojourning here God is doing something divine within us that day by day surely grow the progress (purification process likened as 40 years in the desert ) that finally  if we won we are said as saved, if the purification time is over and we are still not yet understand so we are said as lost ( likened the dead of Israelis in the desert / then our name in the book of life eventually surely be blotted Rev3:5 ), in these process there is no contribution from our part, those are absolutely God works Isa26:12 .

We can imagine the steps of the process :

The first day God tilted us to the left, surely that time we countered Him to the right ( negative will in spiritually dimension Rom3:10-12 ) , God only said that time “don’t harden your heart “.

The second day God rotated us to the left , surely that time we rotated to the opposite ( negative will ), God only said “don’t stiffen your neck “.

And all the days after are treated as similar as that , until the purification time is over , the winner surely well understood Mat13:23 ,

 

Quote

I was responding to your claim that the Devil resides in the vessels of wrath.   I was not saying that they cannot be possessed by demons.  Satan  cannot be inhabiting every unsaved person because Satan is not omnipresent.    And not all sinners are possessed by demons.   You appeared to describe all unsaved people as possessed by Satan and that is simply not true.

I wrote there :

(one vessel unto honour = e.g. Physically Jacob ; another unto dishonor = born of flesh = e.g. Physically Esau )

(the vessels of wrath = devil resides inside the born of flesh John8:44 ; tares Mat 13: 38-39 )

(the vessels of mercy = the chosen : Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, ……., Noah, ………, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,…….Us, last name in the book of life  = The children of kingdom Mat 13:38 = us = spiritually beings which were put in to our body (when we were born Zec12:1 , Jer1:5) /our spirit for sojourning = came from above John17:14 ).

, where these born of flesh people one day are possible to be the devil’s camp e.g. John8:44 , also see Luk11:24-26 , Mat13:38-39

When the devils are still in the bottom of pit , so not all the born of flesh people are the devil possessed , but in the last day surely the born of flesh people will be possessed by the devil Rev 20:7-8.

 

Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

How can there be the deceived such the sand of the sea ? if they are not all the born of flesh people ?.

In this event , we are informed if there are two kinds of humans living in this earth; born of God/ the chosen and born of flesh that surely all of them will be deceived

 

 

Quote

 

The examples of vessels of wrath given in Romans 9 are people who actively rebelled against God, who in their rebellion, made themselves fit for destruction.

Those are not the same as the vessels of dishonor.

 

I clarified already the different between the vessels of wrath , and the vessel of dishonor.

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Guest shiloh357
6 minutes ago, adhidw said:

All of us (our spirits that reside within Us ) / His people/ the chosen start from zero state means : have no knowledge have no ability , we surely will be zero state forever if we are not sent to sojourn to this earth for our growth ( there is no any role that we can play in this state ), by sojourning here God is doing something divine within us that day by day surely grow the progress (purification process likened as 40 years in the desert ) that finally  if we won we are said as saved, if the purification time is over and we are still not yet understand so we are said as lost ( likened the dead of Israelis in the desert / then our name in the book of life eventually surely be blotted Rev3:5 ), in these process there is no contribution from our part, those are absolutely God works Isa26:12 .

actually the idea of "inability"  that you reference in connection with total depravity is not in the Bible.  The Bible does not characterize our rebellious condition by stating that we  have no knowledge and no inability.  Rather, the Bible says that we are in rebellion against the knowledge of truth.   Romans 1 speaks of sinful man having a knowledge of God but choosing to worship the creation rather than the Creator..

What God is doing in us, as believers, is he is conforming us into the image of Christ.   I would not say that He is doing something, "divine"  as that really isn't what the Bible says.  God is not producing divinity in us.  He is simply making us more like Jesus in character and communicable attributes.

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We can imagine the steps of the process :

The first day God tilted us to the left, surely that time we countered Him to the right ( negative will in spiritually dimension Rom3:10-12 ) , God only said that time “don’t harden your heart “.

The second day God rotated us to the left , surely that time we rotated to the opposite ( negative will ), God only said “don’t stiffen your neck “.

And all the days after are treated as similar as that , until the purification time is over , the winner surely well understood Mat13:23 ,

 

That really makes no sense and I am not one to operate off of imagination.   You need to just go by what the Bible says instead of "imagining" how things could be.


 

Quote

 

I wrote there :

(one vessel unto honour = e.g. Physically Jacob ; another unto dishonor = born of flesh = e.g. Physically Esau )

(the vessels of wrath = devil resides inside the born of flesh John8:44 ; tares Mat 13: 38-39 )

(the vessels of mercy = the chosen : Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, ……., Noah, ………, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,…….Us, last name in the book of life  = The children of kingdom Mat 13:38 = us = spiritually beings which were put in to our body (when we were born Zec12:1 , Jer1:5) /our spirit for sojourning = came from above John17:14 ).

, where these born of flesh people one day are possible to be the devil’s camp e.g. John8:44 , also see Luk11:24-26 , Mat13:38-39

When the devils are still in the bottom of pit , so not all the born of flesh people are the devil possessed , but in the last day surely the born of flesh people will be possessed by the devil Rev 20:7-8.

 

Sorry, but that is not what the Bible says. It appears you are trying to mold the Bible around some rather bizarre ideas and imaginings, and are not framing the Word of God correctly.    

 


 

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Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

How can there be the deceived such the sand of the sea ? if they are not all the born of flesh people ?.

In this event , we are informed if there are two kinds of humans living in this earth; born of God/ the chosen and born of flesh that surely all of them will be deceived

 

This has nothing to do with our discussion on free will.   This is eschatological in nature and doesn't belong in this thread.

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I clarified already the different between the vessels of wrath , and the vessel of dishonor.

Yes, and I clarified them more correctly. 

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