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scriptural support for free will belief


ayin jade

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Guest shiloh357
11 minutes ago, Butero said:

Are you claiming the words of Christ to Peter was just a prophecy?  Peter did exactly what Jesus said he would do.  Are you claiming the words of Christ didn't have to come to pass, after you said God cannot lie?  

I am saying that Jesus was demonstrating his omniscience and knew what Peter would do.   That doesn't mean that God scripted Peter's actions, or forced Peter against His will to deny Jesus.  

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Guest shiloh357
3 minutes ago, Butero said:

He didn't have to force Peter to do anything.  He didn't hold a knife to him and tell him you must deny me.  He spoke it and Peter did it, without even realizing what he was doing.  It had to happen once the Lord spoke it.  If it didn't have to happen, then God can lie.  He didn't say to  Peter be careful not to deny me.  

If it is scripted, then it is forcing him because he has no choice but do what God forces him to do.   And that is not how sovereignty works.

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1 minute ago, Butero said:

Clearly, God planned for Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.  This was his plan.  Arrangements were made for this to take place, unless you think the entire plan of salvation could have been thwarted.  Did God plan it or didn't he?  When Jesus told everyone that the one that dipped with him would betray him, was that just a prophecy that could be prevented?  How can that be if Jesus is God and God cannot lie?  

It was all predetermined by GOD .   Peter and others said so .   In acts .    God knew all things .   The evil itself is the fault of man ,   but GOD knows all things .

We should just truly focus on the ONE who saved and can keep us from falling .    Our walk can be so much simplier if we just focused on the gospel

and on sound doctrine .    Butero we got a nasty delusion on the rise and its getting worse .     I have really been unctioned as of late

to put the focus ON JESUS saves , give that hope and to point others to LEARNING HIM and learn HIM fast .  

In the end , on that final day ,many will be told I never knew you .  Not because they could not grasp the meats,   but because they worked inquity .

The church has to quickly return to the pattern of holy living , which JESUS words , the apostels words , and BY the SPIRIT we learn and can .

I am seeing a flood coming in ,   truly I have never seen a delusion like this one .   Some things paul spoke of may be hard for some to grasp .

Their are things we could speak of ,   but how can one grasp the meat of the spiritual , if they are not even learning or have learned The pattern JESUS SET .

An example is ,   if men teach we got not power against evil ,    HOW are they going to understand the deep spiritual things , IF they cannot TRUST CHRIST in the first place .

I am worried real bad as of late .  IF people wont learn the pattern JESUS set and the apostels set  ,   they wont make it .

As of late this unction , this deep unction is simply saying GET the people back to the basics and fast .   Get them back , remind , stir up .

Butero a monster delusion its increasing .    I don't know how else to sound the warning than to just SOUND the warning .

A nasty sensual false love delusion , this all inclusive , many legged monster is infecting not just a person here and their ,  It is swallowing up whole congregations now .

We do not have the time most might think .   This delusion finds many ways into many different types of folks .    We must point to Christ , WE must

stir up by reminders .  

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7 minutes ago, Butero said:

He didn't have to force Peter to do anything.  He didn't hold a knife to him and tell him you must deny me.  He spoke it and Peter did it, without even realizing what he was doing.  It had to happen once the Lord spoke it.  If it didn't have to happen, then God can lie.  He didn't say to  Peter be careful not to deny me.  

Peter did not DO IT , because JESUS had said HE would .    JESUS was simply telling peter, WHAT HE already KNEW peter was going TO DO.

God don't lead us into temptation or evil ,  we do that ourselves .   But you are right about GOD does KNOW all things .  He knows what a person will do .

YES JESUS DID KNOW PETER was going to deny Him .   The fault was on peter.   God DID NOT MAKE peter DO IT ,   HE Simply knew peter would .

 

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Guest shiloh357
Just now, Butero said:

Once Jesus said it would happen, Peter really had no choice, unless you believe God can lie. 

Peter had a choice and was fully responsible for His actions.  And Peter alone bore that responsibility.   It's why Jesus had to restore Him.   If were not up to Peter, then the Lord would owe him an apology for making Him sin against Jesus.

Quote

Why don't you explain to us how Peter could fail to do something Jesus stated he would do without God being a liar?  While you are at it, explain how Judas Iscariot could fail to do what Jesus said he would do without God being a liar?  What does sovereignty have to do with anything?  I am speaking of whether or not God lies.  

Peter did what Jesus would know He would do.  The decisions and choices we make do not stand on their own.  They are the result of a succession of other choices and external stimuli.  We are where we are based on the choices we made in life.   If we could go back into our youth and change some of the bad decisions we made, we would change the entire course of our future because those alternate choices would mean that our decisions and peripheral variables would be different and lead us in a different direction and our lives would be entirely different. 

Peter's choice to deny Jesus was not because he was a hapless automaton that had no choice and did what he was programmed or scripted to do.   Jesus' knew Peter better than Peter knew himself.   He knew that Peter's bravado in a room with a friendly audience would dissipate in the presence of those who could identify him and potentially get him arrested along with Jesus.   Jesus' knew what Peter was made and knew that Peter would deny Him and that Peter's tough exterior was only skin deep.   

The same goes for Judas.  

It's not a matter of being scripted.  But a matter of knowing how we will act in a given circumstance and given certain variables.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Butero said:

Once Jesus said it would happen, Peter really had no choice, unless you believe God can lie.  Why don't you explain to us how Peter could fail to do something Jesus stated he would do without God being a liar?  While you are at it, explain how Judas Iscariot could fail to do what Jesus said he would do without God being a liar?  What does sovereignty have to do with anything?  I am speaking of whether or not God lies.  

Butero , for now just leave this be .  I have to head into work .   Their is something you need to know .    Lets just let this be .    I will email you later , when work is done .

Please , for now let this go .    Just please go and encourage and exhort narrow .    You need to hear something .  

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Jesus knew the future and we don't. Jesus just knew and what takes place can not be changed He did not make Judas or Peter do anything. 

Jesus knows our tomorrow but told us not to preconceive. I have know Idea about my to tomorrow even if I make plans. We still have free will but Jesus and the father are the only ones who know how it plays out.  This is the oly way I can see it.

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Guest shiloh357
53 minutes ago, Butero said:

Once the Lord said it, those things had to happen.  There is no getting around that, unless the Lord can lie.  If Jesus could look ahead and see what Peter would do, Peter couldn't do anything about it.  That thing was scripted and would come to pass.  

It wasn't scripted, but it would come to pass as Jesus said, because Jesus is omniscient.

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I realize this is hard for some to deal with. 

It's not hard to deal with at all.   Your statements are simply wrong and unbiblical.

 

Quote

It leads to reactionary comments, like the one I just addressed where all the other person could do was misuse a scripture about God not being the author of confusion.  God created the plan of salvation, which involved people rejecting his Son and nailing him to a cross.  That means he looked down the road and planned for these events to take place.  He intended that people would do something sinful, reject Christ and kill him, and this was the method of saving people.  And don't bother to say they didn't kill him, but he chose to suffer this fate.  Of course he did, but these people sinned in rejecting him and nailing him to the cross.  If some want to call this being the author of sin because it helps them create an emotional response, have at it, but all of those events were scripted.  They were going to happen.  Pilot was going to sentence Jesus to die.  

While God does ordain some events to take place, it does not follow that all events, all actions, all choices are predetermined by God.   You take a secular hard-determinist approach to your homemade concoction you errantly refer to as "predestination."   You create this entire fiction about God creating people to go to Hell, creating people to commit every crime, that EVERYTHING that happens, happens because God scripted it and wanted it to happen.    It's  all just nonsense and reflects only your errant view and not the pure revelation of Scriptural truth found in the Bible.

The fact that you have no problem with claiming that God causes people to sin is very telling and reflects a serious lack of understanding about the holiness and purity of God.

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Peter had a choice and was fully responsible for His actions.  And Peter alone bore that responsibility.   It's why Jesus had to restore Him.   If were not up to Peter, then the Lord would owe him an apology for making Him sin against Jesus.

Peter did what Jesus would know He would do.  The decisions and choices we make do not stand on their own.  They are the result of a succession of other choices and external stimuli.  We are where we are based on the choices we made in life.   If we could go back into our youth and change some of the bad decisions we made, we would change the entire course of our future because those alternate choices would mean that our decisions and peripheral variables would be different and lead us in a different direction and our lives would be entirely different. 

Peter's choice to deny Jesus was not because he was a hapless automaton that had no choice and did what he was programmed or scripted to do.   Jesus' knew Peter better than Peter knew himself.   He knew that Peter's bravado in a room with a friendly audience would dissipate in the presence of those who could identify him and potentially get him arrested along with Jesus.   Jesus' knew what Peter was made and knew that Peter would deny Him and that Peter's tough exterior was only skin deep.   

The same goes for Judas.  

It's not a matter of being scripted.  But a matter of knowing how we will act in a given circumstance and given certain variables.

 

 

So, after Jesus spoke the words did Peter still have the freedom to not deny Jesus? Could he have changed his mind after that point?

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5 hours ago, Butero said:

I just showed it was in the Bible that Judas Iscariot would betray the Lord, the amount he would betray him for, how he would return the money, it would be used to purchase the Potter's field, and Judas would kill himself.  That is a script.  What do you mean it is not a script the way I present it?  A script is a script.  It is written out what Judas would do, a script, and he followed the script to the letter.  There is nothing complicated here.  It was written in the Bible that Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times.   Peter followed the script and denied the Lord three times.  Again, do you even understand what scripted means?  

You have not shown anything is in the bible. I specifically asked for scriptural support and you havent shown any scripture in any of your posts in this thread. 

We are to be berean and compare everything told to us to scripture. So post scriptural support to prove your views. Otherwise its nothing more than the words of men. And lately thats been bickering men (and women). Lets ease off the bickering he said he said type of posts and lets get back to showing scripture to prove our views. Please. 

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