Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

That would be because Matthew was no given the understanding of the Rapture, which Paul was given, nor the later understanding John was given via the Second Coming so why would they seem the same. as a matter of facts Matthew was given the Rapture so vaguely by Jesus, because Jesus had to give he fate of the Messianic Jews also, that he placed it from verse 36-51 showing he did not really understand it. And he was not meant to understand it, Jesus gave it to Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles. 

The point remains, Rev. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation rapture, read my LONG POST Above. I have a firm grasp on the book of Revelation. Matthew 24:29-31 is Jesus gathering the ELECT from the Four Corners of HEAVEN (Heaven) where we are gathered having just married the Lamb, Mark says from the Four Corners of heaven AND from EARTH which would include only the Jews who are protected in Petra as per on earth. 

1 Thees. is the Rapture, we go to meet Jesus in the Air/Sky. Then of course rev. 19 tells us what happens next.

To be honest, people get too technical about the English verbiage seeing as the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, but then sometimes they also go overboard with things like this. Its pretty simple, Revelation ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew was not given the same understanding as John. Why would you think he would be? Its just conflating passages brother, all to try and prove there is no Pre-trib Rapture, even though there is. I suggest you start in Rev. 19 and explain how the Bride Marries the Lamb, then returns with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Armies, nothng else matters until you can get past that. I can over come any Mid or Post Trib theory. 

Matthew 10:22 is just like this.........Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  It has nothing to do with the END TIMES, its a misunderstanding by most people, it means one must ENDURE until the end of his life. Paul spoke about running the FULL RACE, these verses are not about the END TIMES, notice in 10:23 hes speaking to the Disciples about being Persecuted.

Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD. Mathew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matthew 24:15-31 is the Tribulation period from the Abomination of Desolation to the SO CALLED Second Coming (Read John 20, Jesus has already Returned a Second Time). Matthew 36-51 is the Rapture and that happens after verse 14 and before verse 15, of course. So that verse you cited is about the Disciples life and times on earth brother. 

There is always CLOUDS in the sky you are overthinking this, it only means hes coming in the SKIES, he will not be found in the DESERT or in the SECRET CHAMBERS as per Matt. 24 Thus Jesus is basically telling them DO NOT FALL FOR THE LIES, I will be coming from the Eastern Skies, this is why he says the ELECT can not be deceived, BEHOLD I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE[HAND]. Thus those Jews in the Wilderness/Petra know to STAY THERE, until Jesus comes in the Eastern Skies. The EAGLES (Church) will be where the CARCASS (Armageddon Carnage) is at just like the Marriage Supper of Revelation 19 shows, except the Church/Bride there are called FOWLS. That is the Second Coming, not the Rapture. 

Correct, the Jews are the only ELECT still on earth,  thus they are the Wheat and the Wicked people on earth are the TARES. Israel however have REPENTED way before this, they Repent when the Two-Witnesses show up at the 1335, and that's 75 days before the 1260 Event. Why do you think God PROTECTS THEM if they had not already repented? Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Beast Conquering Israel/Jews, Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus returning to save those that have already REPENTED back long ago SEE---Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1-5. 

 

I just don't get the OVEREMPHASIS here on the Clouds, it only means Jesus will come back from Heaven next time. He will not be born of another Woman. The Anti-Christ will be born of a Woman. Rev. ch. 6 has NOTHING to do with the Second Coming, its just showing the Wrath of the Lamb/God has come, the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath last from the First Seal unto the 7th Vial or 3.5 Years. 

This looks like you copy and pasted. I find I learn more when I make my own arguments. I am not sure, it just looks that way. I used to do the same, nit I am not here to prove my points, but to learn from God, so I argue my own understandings, it has really helped me learn a lot more. Just a tip. 

All the "TRUMPET" is brother is Jesus' Voice reverberating. It is not a JUDGMENT TRUMPET, it is a Pattern if you study the 7 Feasts of Leviticus, the Feast of Trumpets always ended the HARVEST/Pentecost which = the Church Age. Then the Feast of ATONEMENT comes next and Israel needs to REPENT, and then the Feast of Tabernacles comes lastly, and Jesus TABERNACLES (Dwells) with Israel for 1000 years on earth. 

God Bless. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

RM, I'm not buying what your selling. It's a confusing mess.

Hallelujah

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Revelation Man,

Do you have any scripture or evidence that Matthew, Paul and John were not all given the same knowledge?  We only have the writings that have survived the ages.  Also all were anointed with the Holy Spirit.  They all had the same source of knowledge.    Matthew and John went from disciples to Apostles after being anointed.  Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus.  Christ taught the apostles a lot of information but much understanding did not come until after the Holy Spirit.  What would be the point of Christ only telling Paul about a pre-tribulation rapture?  God uses multiple witnesses for everything he does but on something so great as a pre-trib rapture he uses one source?  Also I do not see any reason why Rev. 19 would need to be a pre-trib rapture.

 

Of course, John wrote Revelation, Paul was give the understanding in the 3rd Heaven about the "Secret/Mystery Rapture" which only means Secret by Gods Silence (Musterion). Matthew wrote what he saw and heard. We are all given different gits, we are one body with DIFFERENT PARTS. So all people ARE NOT CALLED unto the same things. Paul was the Disciple unto the Gentiles, he said he was, the Rapture is for the Bride of Christ which is largely Gentile in nature, there be some/a few Messianic Jews, thus they are only blinded IN PART until the time of the Gentiles come Full. 

People do not have the same knowledge, Daniel was given knowledge like none of his peers, Jeremiah was given the Prophecy against Babylon before Daniel but by the time Gabriel spoke unto Daniel about it the Prophetic uttering had changed, it was now 70 x 7 because is Israel's continued disobedience, many Jews didn't want t return to Jerusalem, they loved the WORLD/Babylon. Daniel at the start of Daniel 9 was reading the books of Jeremiah, he says so, then Daniel came to EXPLAIN it unto him. So every man is given different gifts brother. 

Look at their writings and you will see who God gave what unto. Its very obvious brother. 

[Revelation Man]

17 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

RM, I'm not buying what your selling. It's a confusing mess.

Hallelujah

It doesn't matter if you buy it or not, that doesn't change the facts brother. You are just not able to defend against the Pre Trib Rapture, I get it. Copy and Paste will not do it brother.  Do your own research, you will learn more that way. God Bless.

[Brother Duke]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Look at their writings and you will see who God gave what unto. Its very obvious brother

Paul said they should all be teaching the same gospel.

 

1Co 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

[Brother Duke]

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't matter if you buy it or not, that doesn't change the facts brother. You are just not able to defend against the Pre Trib Rapture, I get it. Copy and Paste will not do it brother.  Do your own research, you will learn more that way. God Bless.

Hi RevMan,

 

Which one scripture do you think is the absolute most proof for a pre-tribulation rapture?

[Revelation Man]

15 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi RevMan,

 

Which one scripture do you think is the absolute most proof for a pre-tribulation rapture?

God doesn't work like that per se. But Satan loves to deceive like he did Eve. God tells us we must go line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. With God its like a jigsaw puzzle, even with multiple authors everything syncs up, but not every human is given the same things. Satan deceives more than that should be allowed on the Rapture.

Like I stated before, Rev. ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-trib Rapture. Then you have the misunderstood passages where Satan has managed to deceive many with, not most because 85 percent of Christendom understand when the Rapture is.  Passages like 2 Thessalonian's 2 are not even understood, it very clear that there is no such thing as an Apostasy of the Faith because FAITH is not spoken of ANYWHERE in the passage. Paul is speaking of course about the Church DEPARTING before the Man of Sin is Revealed/RELEASED by Jesus. We see the Church in White Robes in Heaven before Jesus Opens the First Seal. The IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation is another Misnomer, the Church Returns with Christ IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. 

But it all comes back to Rev. ch. 19, we the Church are IN HEAVEN, we MARRY the Lamb then return to earth with Jesus where the Beast and his Kings await us for battle. I do not know why people wont just admit what is factual via the Scriptures. Well I know why, its called the Pride of life, men have to be right, it just how we a built.........but we have to be wrong multiple times every day in order to learn from God., then we can repeat the truths He teaches us. I spent Months writing a Blog and it started out saying  that the Great City in Rev. 17:18 was Rome, the Holy Spirit a few days later was like "YOU ARE WRONG Ron" and thus I learned, the Holy Spirit was showing me what the Harlot really was and what Babylon really was. The GREAT CITY in the Vision was Babylon tattooed on her forehead. It did not mean Rome. It was FOUR DESCRIPTORS as per who the Harlot was. 

I am glad to be wrong, that means I gain knowledge. The Pharisees couldn't learn from Jesus, they trusted "Men's Traditions" too much, bit the Babes or Disciples could understand Jesus, because they were sponges !! Only when I started looking an Revelation and Daniel with a blank mind did I start learning and understanding the Secrets of God. 

The SAME Gospel was referring to Christ Crucified, not every Disciple being given the same Ministry. You have to search it out brother, without preconceived understandings. God Bless. 

[JoeChan82]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't matter if you buy it or not, that doesn't change the facts brother. You are just not able to defend against the Pre Trib Rapture, I get it. Copy and Paste will not do it brother.  Do your own research, you will learn more that way. God Bless.

I happen to know first hand that the post you are referring to has done his own research. He is "Copy and Paste" from his own research. I'm not guessing here, I know it first hand. 

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't matter if you buy it or not, that doesn't change the facts brother. You are just not able to defend against the Pre Trib Rapture, I get it. Copy and Paste will not do it brother.  Do your own research, you will learn more that way. God Bless.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Musterion Man, I have a good laugh every time I read your posts. Keep it up. I think studies have shown that laughing adds days to one's life. Revelation Man doesn't quite fit you. Your words do nothing to disclose, bring light to, or reveal the writings of the Apostle John. Musterion Man is more suitable. You know how people used to be given names fitting their character. Akatastasia Man, maybe, or if we went to the Hebrew, Babel Man, that will work! Babel Man, that's it.

BTW, anything I cut and paste is my own work, from my own books or pamphlets. It just saves time when I constantly have to deal with the same pre-trib foolishness.

When establishing or presenting a Biblical eschatological system one must begin with the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. We use explicit or unmistakable truths as the foundation and frame work upon which to build our eschatological house. When you begin with a flawed artificial system and force all the texts to fit into it, no wonder you have such a mess. This 150+ year old secret rapture is a classic case of eisegesis, reading a eschatological system into the text.

I will provide explicit statements to demonstrate the foundation of what has come to be known as the pre-wrath model of the timing of the rapture in relation to the events of the seventieth week. I'll do one or two per post, so that you may challenge them if you desire.

Foundational proposition #1

Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus having ascended to the right hand of the Father will return some day and take (paralambano) His own unto Himself to be where He is.

The 11 are representatives of all believers and particularly founding members of the future church. The church is said to be the body of Christ, into which every true believer is baptized. True believers are also said to be the elect or chosen of God. We are also called saints, holy ones. This promise therefore applies to the church, aka the saints, aka the elect.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

[Steve Conley]

On 6/7/2018 at 9:34 AM, Revelation Man said:

All of Gods Wrath comes from the Seven Seals. The SEVENTH SEAL is the 7 Trumpets, and the Last Trumpet or 3rd Woe is ALL SEVEN VIALS. So all of Gods Wrath emits fro the Sven Seals that Christ opens. 

Gods Wrath starts with the very first Seal, the Seventh Seal ends it all but alas, the Seventh Seal is 7 Trumpets, PLUS that Last Woe (7th Trumpet) is 7 Vials. Thus the Seventh Seal does end it all technically, the 7th Trumpet in Rev. 11 ends it all technically because it is the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials and the 7th Vial ends it all. 

You see in chapter 11, that is the story of the Two-Witnesses full 1260 day Ministry on earth, and even after they die, their prayers before they died, bring forth the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe).  Thus we are told Jesus takes OVER !! But its speaking about after the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe) comes to pass, which is the 7 Vials.  The Woes do not kick of the Tribulation however. The First Seal does. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Babel Man, how can the seals be God's wrath, when the souls under the alter, that are seen by John at the opening of the fifth seal, are told that they will have to wait a little season for their blood to be avenged.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

How can the seals be the wrath of God, when Joel and Peter say that the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark must come before the day of the Lord, and John sees the cosmic sign after the opening of the sixth seal. (I assume that you, being the great eschatological scholar that you claim to be, already know that the eschatological wrath of God falls in the beginning period of the day of the Lord.)

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You claim to be a master, yet you miss some of the most elementary declarations of the Holy Scriptures. 

Hallelujah

 

 

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

BTW, anything I cut and paste is my own work, from my own books or pamphlets. It just saves time when I constantly have to deal with the same pre-trib foolishness.

That's fine I do the same thing via my blogs and many Exegesis I have written, but we both know 95 percent of people on these boards cut and paste other peoples understandings, at that of course adds nothing to their intellectual capacity, so now we both know where we stand, I don't want o answer endless copy and paste by someone, I could go to Quora and do that but ts pointless, it not an intellectual back and forth between colleagues. As per your thoughts, I think in like manner, I do not like dealing the people who can'y see when the Rapture is, I think babes should understand it, so if its C&P O surely want no part of it, id its actual research by someone I can answer it, but most have tunnel vision anyway, then they usually stop to name calling like you do above. Its not Christian like brother, but you go forty as you see fit, its kinda small thinking don't you think? Its Alinsky tactics the left wing uses. 

Instead of you C&P why don't you answer my challenges head on? I suspect you have tunnel vision, thus you never read another's post, thus you just Zap another C&P as a reply. I would never answer any post without reading it in full, its called respect. I suspect you half read others posts. 

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

When establishing or presenting a Biblical eschatological system one must begin with the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. We use explicit or unmistakable truths as the foundation and frame work upon which to build our eschatological house. When you begin with a flawed artificial system and force all the texts to fit into it, no wonder you have such a mess. This 150+ year old secret rapture is a classic case of eisegesis, reading a eschatological system into the text.

One must UNDERSTAND the Scriptures and most do not have a clue about Revelation or Daniel. The other scriptures are easy to me, the Rapture is easy to see. If you can't see it that is on you, your not understanding it is not going to change the facts. 85 percent of Christendom disagrees with you for a reason. The Pharisees had these same type theories didn't they? I prefer hearing from the Holy Spirit of truth. Its much easier than trying to formalize understandings via the MIND. 

You start with an untruth, the Rapture is 2000 years old, but you think saying its 150 years old will condition people into thinking you are correct, it will not. Hapazo was written by Paul, translated into Rapio via the Latin Vulgate and translated to CATCHING UP/SEIZED via the English, so the Rapture verbiage comes from Paul who used Harpazo, but then again I suspect you know the truth, but you just choose to follow "Men's Traditions", you are all in on the idea, truth be gone. 

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

I will provide explicit statements to demonstrate the foundation of what has come to be known as the pre-wrath model of the timing of the rapture in relation to the events of the seventieth week. I'll do one or two per post, so that you may challenge them if you desire.

Foundational proposition #1

Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus having ascended to the right hand of the Father will return some day and take (paralambano) His own unto Himself to be where He is.

The 11 are representatives of all believers and particularly founding members of the future church. The church is said to be the body of Christ, into which every true believer is baptized. True believers are also said to be the elect or chosen of God. We are also called saints, holy ones. This promise therefore applies to the church, aka the saints, aka the elect.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matthew 24:36)

The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.

The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thess. 4:16 – For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of that Day said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thess. 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 

The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride, at the Last Trump or at the Feast of Trumpets. Glory to God. The Bridal Chambers you point towards brother points towards a seven year event, the Jewish Wedding Custom was for the groom and the bride to stay in the marriage chambers for one week (7 years).