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Revelation and the Study of Woe


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I think these discussions are vital in the faith. It's my hope that the truth is spoken as it is written concerning this topic. Alas, that isn't always the case and I'm probably guilty of an error or two in this topic as well, hopefully in an innocent fashion and not as a deliberate promotion of agenda or personal longing.

I heard someone say, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts."  In this topic it seems as though we arrive at conclusions before facts instead of allowing the facts to guide us to the conclusion. It's not a mystery why this happens but it is telling that so many diverse conclusions exist. How is it possible we are all hearing the voice of the Lord on this? For instance, Pretrib and Post Trib are on opposite ends of the timeline of the end of the age. Each doctrine has it's adherents and each group claims they have the truth of the matter and the other group is wrong. 

Either both are wrong or one is. We are confronted with the reality there is only one end of the age. There isn't two or three. The book has been written with all the need to know information about this time, the books actually. Does it make any sense that the information contained in those books could mean many things to many people? Would it not be the case that there is only one correct conclusion to the set of facts contained in the books written about the end of age? 

None of the facts given by our Lord to us about the end of age are unrelated. The facts are the driving force hurling us along to the revealing of the time to come. These facts march along with us in tow leading to truth, hopefully. And we all have access to the same set of facts. Now how can there be many conclusions to the same set of facts?

Something is wrong.

The same Spirit cannot be giving competing conclusions to facts the Spirit recorded for us; the facts of that Spirit, by that Spirit, foretold by that same Spirit, and coming to pass by the power of the Spirit. We tend favor our perspective. That works. In the world we live in; jobs, commutes, the gym, poker night, whatever, a personal perspective on these things and more is appropriate and necessary. While we are all the same in many respects we are also individuals. But when it comes to the truth of the Spirit of God we continue on the path of personal perspective. Our fantasy realms usurp the reality of the Spirit.

Something is very wrong.

Instead of allowing the Spirit to fill us with the greater perspective, instead of humbling ourselves to hear the Spirit, we rebel. We don't like to hear the truth of reality. We impound the truth in our minds dungeon like a criminal. Too many times the truth is viewed as sedition, a bad actor subverting our personal take, destroying the carefully constructed fantasy of personal perspective. This is the enemies doing. There is only one Spirit of truth, and there should be only one truth in every concept of the scriptures of truth, not the many we experience today. This is division. All the diverse conclusions cannot be valid. Only one. We have been led astray by the enemy. The exhortation to,  "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." means we should start getting out of her now.

Edited by Diaste
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On 6/9/2018 at 10:03 PM, Steve Conley said:
On 6/7/2018 at 8:34 AM, Revelation Man said:

Woe) comes to pass, which is the 7 Vials.  The Woes do not kick of the Tribulation however. The First Seal does. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Babel Man, how can the seals be God's wrath, when the souls under the alter, that are seen by John at the opening of the fifth seal, are told that they will have to wait a little season for their blood to be avenged.

Because revenge will not be meeted out until all the earth is brought under Jesus Christs domain, and all the Wicked Tares have bee killed and bound into the grave to be judged in 1000 years. So as long as those that killed the Martyrs are still alive they can not fully receive revenge can they? So them waiting for vengeance or being told they MUST WAIT only proves my point, the Wrath of God lasts for the full 3.5 years, it is the Day of the Lord. Those Saints with White Robes on in Rev. 7:9 are the Raptured Church, these Saints under the Alter in Seal #5 here have to WAIT until Jesus Returns. 

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is quite easy to understand. They want vengeance on those who killed them, that will happen via the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of Gods Wrath and not until the 7th Vial is this complete. They are told they must wait until the others have been killed also, meaning they have to wait until Jesus' return because the Beast kills and maims for 42 months, we are even told if Jesus did not come back when he did no flesh would be saved. 

Also, we are told the Seals are Gods/Lambs Wrath.........HERE: Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

God always has perfect Symmetry, He doesn't start things in the middle, all of the Seals are Gods Wrath, the Day of the Lord starts with the First Seal being opened, thus Elijah has to show up to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. Why do the Jews Flee Judea when they see the Abomination of Desolation? They did not flee the last time they saw an Abomination via Antiochus Epiphanes did they? No, they had the Maccabean Revolt and fought, so why do 1/3 of the Jews Flee Judea and go to Petra? Because they have already REPENTED and heeded Jesus' words via Matthew 24:15-17 !! Elijah is sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins at the 1260 Event when Israel/Holy peoples are Conquered. We know this via the scriptures, AS SHOWN BELOW: 

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Just like 2 Thessalonians 2 says, the Church will DEPART, then the Anti-Christ will be REVEALED/UNCOVERED and allowed to come forth, the Holy Spirit will stop BLOCKING his path when Jesus opens the First Seal, then the Day of the Lord that the Thessalonians were FEARFUL of will be upon the world.

1. Church Departs

2. Anti-Christ comes forth

3. The Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath Begins because he comes forth. Gods Wrath on Mankind includes allowing mankind to have the Governance their heart desires, not God's Governance, but a Man influenced by Satan himself. God gives them their hearts desire. 

On 6/9/2018 at 10:03 PM, Steve Conley said:

How can the seals be the wrath of God, when Joel and Peter say that the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark must come before the day of the Lord, and John sees the cosmic sign after the opening of the sixth seal. (I assume that you, being the great eschatological scholar that you claim to be, already know that the eschatological wrath of God falls in the beginning period of the day of the Lord.)

This is how misnomers and misunderstandings get started, you say that Peter and Joel say that the sun, moon and stars must go dark BEFORE the Day of the Lord and neither one actually say that do they brother, although the Joel English translation implies that, its an improper translation . They both use those descriptors to describe the Day of the Lord amongst many other things, they are thus describing a 3.5 year period of time known as the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath and all the entails. 

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter has the basics right, but the Heavens and Earth will not pass away on the Day of the Lord unless its a 1000 year period and the reign of Christ is included. He describes the Earth BURNING (Trumpet #1) and then he speaks about the New Heaven and earth that will eventually come down. So nowhere does Peter say that via anything I can find. As Per Joel, of course the English translation has once again confused the masses. BEFORE means in the Presence of, LOOK IT UP !! I have studied this in depth.  Joel is describing the Day of the Lord in depth.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Using my Hebrew Masoretic Bible Transliteration I can study the root words.

 2:31 The sun 8121 shall be turned 2015 z8735 into darkness, 2822 and the moon 3394 into blood, 1818 before 6440 the great 1419 and the terrible 3372 z8737 day 3117 ofYähwè יָהוֶה 3068 come. 935 z8800

#6440 פָּנִים paniym {paw-neem'} pl. (but always as sing.) of an unused noun פָּנֶה paneh {paw-neh'} from H6437; TWOT - 1782a; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) face 1a) face, faces

1b) presence, person

1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)

1d) face (of animals)

1e) face, surface (of ground)

1f) as adv of loc/temp

1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

1g) with prep

1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of, in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of, from before, from before the face of

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פָּנֶה paneh, {paw-neh'}; from H6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.):

NOW REREAD THE VERSE !! 

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before[IN THE PRESENCE OF] the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Hebrew was a limited Language, they had 4000 words in Moses time all the way up to 7500 words later on, compared to the 500,000 English words we have today, so the same words were used in different ways, thus the CONTEXT was very important and had to be understood. Like the word used for Day in Genesis chapter 1, the Hebrew word YOWN has about 50 meanings, a PERIOD OF TIME is one meaning, the original meaning is TO BE HOT, thus it never means ONE DAY in Genesis chapter 1, the First Day (period of time) was 9.2 Billion years etc. etc. etc. LIKEWISE we have to understand the context here also, the Hebrew word PANEH is used in different ways for different things. thus the Context has to be understood, thus we see how its used via looking at the times its used in the bible, the three most used instances are these HERE: AV - before 1137, face 390, presence 76. 

So when we are in the PRESENCE of the Day of the Lord the Sun, Moon and Stars will it not give her light. Does that make sense? It does to me.

Call me me Master Ron, I like that. ?

Edited by Revelation Man
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5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think these discussions are vital in the faith. It's my hope that the truth is spoken as it is written concerning this topic. Alas, that isn't always the case and I'm probably guilty of an error or two in this topic as well, hopefully in an innocent fashion and not as a deliberate promotion of agenda or personal longing.

I heard someone say, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts."  In this topic it seems as though we arrive at conclusions before facts instead of allowing the facts to guide us to the conclusion. It's not a mystery why this happens but it is telling that so many diverse conclusions exist. How is it possible we are all hearing the voice of the Lord on this? For instance, Pretrib and Post Trib are on opposite ends of the timeline of the end of the age. Each doctrine has it's adherents and each group claims they have the truth of the matter and the other group is wrong. 

Either both are wrong or one is. We are confronted with the reality there is only one end of the age. There isn't two or three. The book has been written with all the need to know information about this time, the books actually. Does it make any sense that the information contained in those books could mean many things to many people? Would it not be the case that there is only one correct conclusion to the set of facts contained in the books written about the end of age? 

None of the facts given by our Lord to us about the end of age are unrelated. The facts are the driving force hurling us along to the revealing of the time to come. These facts march along with us in tow leading to truth, hopefully. And we all have access to the same set of facts. Now how can there be many conclusions to the same set of facts?

Something is wrong. The same Spirit cannot be giving competing conclusions to facts the Spirit recorded for us; the facts of that Spirit, by that Spirit, foretold by that same Spirit, and coming to pass by the power of the Spirit. 

Something is very, very wrong.

Exactly brother. Which is why I advocate doing away with all preconceived notions, which is what I did like 5 years ago on Revelation, on Daniel, on Babylon, on the Rapture etc. etc. I as a preacher of 30 years did not really care one way or the other when the Rapture was, although I felt the vast majority of Christendom seemed to gravitate towards the Pre-tribulation understanding, but I had people pressing me wanting a better understanding from little ole me, and it seemed very important to some, thus I got a lot of info from both sides and told myself (like you just said) something is wrong, they both make good arguments, but the truth needs to be understood. 

So I went to God in prayer and the Holy Spirit was like, I know all, why ask other men or follow their ideas, that was the Pharisees problem. I was like startled. So I ventured on a journey with no preconceived Ideas. Then I got to Revelation chapter 19 in study one day and it hit me, the Holy Spirit was like, if you will receive it, there can be no Revelation chapter 19 without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. The Church becomes the Bride in Heaven, then returns with Christ as Conquerors on White Horses. Also I understand that we must go line upon line and precept upon precept, so I knew if the Pre-trib rapture was correct, then all of the reasoning's for mid and post tribulation raptures would fall apart. So I stopped looking for my lead opinion, I had it, the Pre-tribulation had to be correct or Rev. 19 could not exist. Now I needed to look at all the understandings and thought processes behind these other beliefs and see if their theories crumbled under scrutiny, and everyone of them fell apart under inspection, they were all tied to half truths or misunderstandings of the word. 

1.) IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation in no wise stops the Church from returning with Jesus Christ.

2.) There "really" is no such hing as a Second Coming, Jesus returned from Heaven via John ch. 20, he calls the Church to meet him in the air.

3.) The Wheat and the Tares supposedly means there is no Pre-trib Rapture. BUT..... The Wheat is Israel, the Tares are the Wicked. The Church is Raptured, even if you believe in Mid or Post theory Rapture the Church does not remain on earth with the Tares until the very end !! The Wheat (Israel) do remain with the Tares until the end.

4.) The Rapture deals with only the SAVED, the Second Coming deals with both the saved (Wheat) and the damned (Wicked)

5.) No signs precede the Rapture, many signs precede the Second Coming.

6.) At the Rapture we receive Glorified bodies, at the Second Coming those living keep their earthly bodies and keep reproducing, thus many follow Satan again after the 1000 year reign, those of us in our Glorious bodies will not do that brothers. I might add per Rev. 19, Glorified believers come from Heaven, earthly believers are found on earth and thus stay on earth.

7.) At the Rapture Christ meets believers in the air, those believers on earth will see him come via the Mt of Olives. The Mt. of Olives is unchanged at the Rapture, but divided via the Second Coming. Also, Satan remains free via the Rapture and is cast to earth later, he is bound at the Second Coming.

8.) The Rapture is revealed only in the New Testament, the so called Second Coming is in both the New & Old Testaments.

9.) The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption. Jeremiah 30:7 describes the Tribulation as the "time of Jacob’s trouble", "How awful that day will be!  None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it." In the Book of Matthew, whose primary audience is the Jews, Jesus explains to his Jewish followers what life will be like during the Tribulation.

10.) The Old Testament and Revelation leave the Church out of the Tribulation. The focus of the Tribulation -- to pour out God’s wrath on the earth just like the Flood (Isa. 24:22; Zeph. 3:8; 1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 2:12) and to bring the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah (Mat. 23:39; Lk. 13:35) -- is addressed by the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation to the unbelievers and the Jewish people. In any biblical content concerning the Tribulation/Day of the Lord, the Church cannot be found. The whole concept of the Church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets. They focused on the nation of Israel.

 

Those are 10 Reasons the Pre-tribulation was the only answer to my quest. I give a couple more reasons below which are a little longer and more detailed as per the reasoning's,  I could go on and on, but there is no need to prove anything, I am just seeking the truth, our opinions in the end do not matter. 

 

(A). The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning, Matthew 24:42,44 to "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Not only do believers in Christ not know when to expect Him, but the Father Himself seems to have left Jesus out on the exact time His Son is to return. As Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” These and other verses (Mat. 24:36,42,44,50; 25:13; 1 Thes. 4:18; Tit. 2:13; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2-3) indicate that Jesus’ arrival will come when nobody expects it.

The Second Coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events, such as the rise of the Antichrist (Rev. 12:13-17; Zech; 13:7-9), a treaty with Israel (Dan. 9:27), the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (Mat. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2), as well as plagues and judgments and persecutions destroying most of the world’s population (Rev. ch. 6-18). The Book of Revelation reports these events as occurring during the 7-year Tribulation, which Revelation reveals precede the so called Second Coming.

Because the Rapture could happen at any moment and without warning and the Second Coming is preceded by so many signs, then the Rapture and Second Coming must be different events. The Rapture has to occur before the seven years’ worth of signs, because Christians are called to look for the Lord’s return rather than signs such as the Antichrist’s arrival. Once the signs begin, then the seven year countdown begins towards its end with Christ’s return at the Second Coming.

Jesus’ imminent return dismisses any of the other viewpoints related to a rapture that occur within or at the end of the Tribulation.

(B).  The Bible shows God rescues the righteous from His wrath.

Being a Christian means having to endure suffering and trials at the hand of man (Jn. 16:33; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thes. 3:3; 1 Pet. 4:12-13). But, the Bible has many examples of those who put their faith in God are exempt from God’s wrath. Noah and his family were removed from the Flood waters that in God’s wrath were used to judge and cleanse the earth. Lot and his wife and two daughters were made to leave Sodom and Gomorrah before God burned the towns up with fire and sulfur. Rahab’s family was set apart when Joshua’s army invaded Jericho.

Could believers be miraculously protected during the Tribulation, like the Israelites were during the plagues on Egypt? Yes, the 144,000 Jews from Revelation 7 and 14, for instance, will be divinely protected. But, the slaughter of believers during the Tribulation will be so massive that they are certainly not under any special protection.

Edited by Revelation Man
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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So I went to God in prayer and the Holy Spirit was like, I know all, why ask other men or follow their ideas, that was the Pharisees problem. I was like startled. So I ventured on a journey with no preconceived Ideas. Then I got to Revelation chapter 19 in study one day and it hit me, the Holy Spirit was like, if you will receive it, there can be no Revelation chapter 19 without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. The Church becomes the Bride in Heaven, then returns with Christ as Conquerors on White Horses. Also I understand that we must go line upon line and precept upon precept, so I knew if the Pre-trib rapture was correct, then all of the reasoning's for mid and post tribulation raptures would fall apart. So I stopped looking for my lead opinion, I had it, the Pre-tribulation had to be correct or Rev. 19 could not exist. Now I needed to look at all the understandings and thought processes behind these other beliefs and see if their theories crumbled under scrutiny, and everyone of them fell apart under inspection, they were all tied to half truths or misunderstandings of the word. 

I see no reason why Rev 19 must be pre-trib only.

 

1)  Satan comes to earth and the wrath of the devil starts.

2) Saints are persecuted

3) Saints are raptured and caught up into the clouds with Christ.  <--- Marriage of the lamb.  We do not know how long this  consummation period is but it could be just a week or two.

4)  Gods Wrath / Christ returns with his bride and rids the world of  the unbelievers and tares.

 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Exactly brother. Which is why I advocate doing away with all preconceived notions, which is what I did like 5 years ago on Revelation, on Daniel, on Babylon, on the Rapture etc. etc. I as a preacher of 30 years did not really care one way or the other when the Rapture was, although I felt the vast majority of Christendom seemed to gravitate towards the Pre-tribulation understanding, but I had people pressing me wanting a better understanding from little ole me, and it seemed very important to some, thus I got a lot of info from both sides and told myself (like you just said) something is wrong, they both make good arguments, but the truth needs to be understood. 

So I went to God in prayer and the Holy Spirit was like, I know all, why ask other men or follow their ideas, that was the Pharisees problem. I was like startled. So I ventured on a journey with no preconceived Ideas. Then I got to Revelation chapter 19 in study one day and it hit me, the Holy Spirit was like, if you will receive it, there can be no Revelation chapter 19 without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. The Church becomes the Bride in Heaven, then returns with Christ as Conquerors on White Horses. Also I understand that we must go line upon line and precept upon precept, so I knew if the Pre-trib rapture was correct, then all of the reasoning's for mid and post tribulation raptures would fall apart. So I stopped looking for my lead opinion, I had it, the Pre-tribulation had to be correct or Rev. 19 could not exist. Now I needed to look at all the understandings and thought processes behind these other beliefs and see if their theories crumbled under scrutiny, and everyone of them fell apart under inspection, they were all tied to half truths or misunderstandings of the word. 

1.) IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation in no wise stops the Church from returning with Jesus Christ.

2.) There "really" is no such hing as a Second Coming, Jesus returned from Heaven via John ch. 20, he calls the Church to meet him in the air anyway.

3.) The Wheat and the Tares mean = no Pre-trib Rapture. The Wheat is Israel, the Tares are the Wicked. The Church is Raptured, even if you believe in Mid or Post theory Rapture the Church does not remain on earth with the Tares until the very end !! The Wheat (Israel) do remain with the Tares until the end.

4.) The Rapture deals with only the SAVED, the Second Coming deals with both the saved (Wheat) and the damned (Wicked)

5.) No signs precede the Rapture, many signs precede the Second Coming.

6.) At the Rapture we receive Glorified bodies, at the Second Coming those living keep their earthly bodies and keep reproducing, thus many follow Satan again after the 1000 year reign, those of us in our Glorious bodies will not do that brothers. I might add per Rev. 19, Glorified believers come from Heaven, earthly believers are found on earth and thus stay on earth.

7.) At the Rapture Christ meets believers in the air, those believers on earth will see him come via the Mt of Olives. The Mt. of Olives is unchanged at the Rapture, but divided via he Second Coming. Also, Satan remains free via the Rapture and is cast to earth later, he is bound at the Second Coming.

8.) The Rapture is revealed only in the New Testament, the so called Second Coming is in both the New & Old Testaments.

9.) The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption. Jeremiah 30:7 describes the Tribulation as the "time of Jacob’s trouble", "How awful that day will be!  None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it." In the Book of Matthew, whose primary audience is the Jews, Jesus explains to his Jewish followers what life will be like during the Tribulation.

10.) The Old Testament and Revelation leave the Church out of the Tribulation. The focus of the Tribulation -- to pour out God’s wrath on the earth just like the Flood (Isa. 24:22; Zeph. 3:8; 1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 2:12) and to bring the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah (Mat. 23:39; Lk. 13:35) -- is addressed by the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation to the unbelievers and the Jewish people. In any biblical content concerning the Tribulation/Day of the Lord, the Church cannot be found. The whole concept of the Church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets. They focused on the nation of Israel.

 

Those are 10 Reasons the Pre-tribulation was the only answer to my quest. I give a couple more reasons below which are a little longer and more detailed as per the reasoning's,  I could go on and on, but there is no need to prove anything, I am just seeking the truth, our opinions in the end do not matter. 

 

(A). The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning, Matthew 24:42,44 to "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Not only do believers in Christ not know when to expect Him, but the Father Himself seems to have left Jesus out on the exact time His Son is to return. As Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” These and other verses (Mat. 24:36,42,44,50; 25:13; 1 Thes. 4:18; Tit. 2:13; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2-3) indicate that Jesus’ arrival will come when nobody expects it.

The Second Coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events, such as the rise of the Antichrist (Rev. 12:13-17; Zech; 13:7-9), a treaty with Israel (Dan. 9:27), the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (Mat. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2), as well as plagues and judgments and persecutions destroying most of the world’s population (Rev. ch. 6-18). The Book of Revelation reports these events as occurring during the 7-year Tribulation, which Revelation reveals precede the so called Second Coming.

Because the Rapture could happen at any moment and without warning and the Second Coming is preceded by so many signs, then the Rapture and Second Coming must be different events. The Rapture has to occur before the seven years’ worth of signs, because Christians are called to look for the Lord’s return rather than signs such as the Antichrist’s arrival. Once the signs begin, then the seven year countdown begins towards its end with Christ’s return at the Second Coming.

Jesus’ imminent return dismisses any of the other viewpoints related to a rapture that occur within or at the end of the Tribulation.

(B).  The Bible shows God rescues the righteous from His wrath.

Being a Christian means having to endure suffering and trials at the hand of man (Jn. 16:33; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thes. 3:3; 1 Pet. 4:12-13). But, the Bible has many examples of those who put their faith in God are exempt from God’s wrath. Noah and his family were removed from the Flood waters that in God’s wrath were used to judge and cleanse the earth. Lot and his wife and two daughters were made to leave Sodom and Gomorrah before God burned the towns up with fire and sulfur. Rahab’s family was set apart when Joshua’s army invaded Jericho.

Could believers be miraculously protected during the Tribulation, like the Israelites were during the plagues on Egypt? Yes, the 144,000 Jews from Revelation 7 and 14, for instance, will be divinely protected. But, the slaughter of believers during the Tribulation will be so massive that they are certainly not under any special protection.

if you could show scripture that equates the 70th week with the wrath of God, I'd appreciate it. :)

 

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58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

if you could show scripture that equates the 70th week with the wrath of God, I'd appreciate it. :)

 

The 70th week is more akin to Jacob's Troubles. Its a one week period of time designed by God to get Israel to turn back unto God. The Troubles are not per se the same as the Greatest Troubles ever Jesus spoke of. Jacob's Troubles cover a myriad of factors. Jerusalem is a cup of trembling and a  burdensome stone. When Christians are Raptured they will probably lose the USA as a supporter, though the Nations will spin it as a plague that killed 100's of millions of people, because we do die at the Rapture as per out flesh bodies. So the 70th Week/Jacobs Troubles are different from the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God

This is a 3.5 Year period of time where Israel will see the Greatest Ever Troubles, but those Jews that repented and thus heeded Jesus' words via Matthew 24 will escape these troubles via fleeing unto Petra, even though they will have family members being killed, thus it is still troublesome unto them of course. It all starts on a certain Day, the day Jesus opens the First Seal and lasts until the 7th Vial. Its considered the day the Wrath starts thus its the Day of the Lord. I truly think people believing it is all ONE DAY is why some people think the Seals, Trumpets and Vials all run concurrent. Its not one day, its the day Gods Wrath kicks off. 

Zechariah 14:1-4 are all part of the Day of the Lord. Israel is Conquered in verses 1-2, Jesus Conquers the Beast in verses 3-4. 

Isaiah 24:21-22 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Zephaniah 3:8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and battle cry Against the fortified cities And the high corner towers. 

I will bring distress on men So that they will walk like the blind, Because they have sinned against the LORD; And their blood will be poured out like dust And their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 13:4-6 A sound of tumult on the mountains, Like that of many people! A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, Of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle. They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land. Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Ezekiel 30:3-4 "For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations. "A sword will come upon Egypt, And anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt, They take away her wealth, And her foundations are torn down.

Joel 3:12-14  Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Jeremiah 30:7-8 'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it. 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.

Amos 5:18-20 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light; As when a man flees from a lion And a bear meets him, Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall And a snake bites him. Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it?

Isaiah 2:12  For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning Against everyone who is proud and lofty And against everyone who is lifted up, That he may be abased.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1-2 Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,

Joel 2:2-4 A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns The land is like the garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them, And nothing at all escapes them. Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like war horses, so they run.

In Isaiah 10:20-27 God BREAKS THE YOKE of the Assyrian (Anti-Christ) as per being over Israel, ten we get this: Isaiah 11:11  Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

Malachi 4:1-2 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.

Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the LORD, "I will assemble the lame And gather the outcasts, Even those whom I have afflicted. "I will make the lame a remnant And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.

There are many more verses,  but you get the gist with these verses. If we study all of these verses we can understand this Day or the Lord is about much more than just the Sun, Moon and Stars going dark. Its about the defeat of the Assyrian Anti-Christ, the earth burning, the Wicked being destroyed etc. etc. etc. Its about A DAY in which God brings Judgment and Wrath upon mankind and the Wicked of the earth who serve the Beast. The Wrath will last for 1260 days, thus Israel are protected for 1260 days !! Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her Plagues, then we see the Women in Rev. 12 is protected for 1260 days. The Believing Jews escape to Petra, the Church is in Heaven, those who gave their lives to Christ after the Rapture have to lay down their lives, they are the Martyrs/Beheaded under the Alter via the 5th Seal. Of course if the can make it to Petra I suspect God would protect them there also. 

The Wrath of God starts with the First Seal and lasts for 42 Months or 1260 days until Jesus Returns. 

 

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15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 70th week is more akin to Jacob's Troubles. Its a one week period of time designed by God to get Israel to turn back unto God. The Troubles are not per se the same as the Greatest Troubles ever Jesus spoke of. Jacob's Troubles cover a myriad of factors. Jerusalem is a cup of trembling and a  burdensome stone. When Christians are Raptured they will probably lose the USA as a supporter, though the Nations will spin it as a plague that killed 100's of millions of people, because we do die at the Rapture as per out flesh bodies. So the 70th Week/Jacobs Troubles are different from the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God

This is a 3.5 Year period of time where Israel will see the Greatest Ever Troubles, but those Jews that repented and thus heeded Jesus' words via Matthew 24 will escape these troubles via fleeing unto Petra, even though they will have family members being killed, thus it is still troublesome unto them of course. It all starts on a certain Day, the day Jesus opens the First Seal and lasts until the 7th Vial. Its considered the day the Wrath starts thus its the Day of the Lord. I truly think people believing it is all ONE DAY is why some people think the Seals, Trumpets and Vials all run concurrent. Its not one day, its the day Gods Wrath kicks off. 

Zechariah 14:1-4 are all part of the Day of the Lord. Israel is Conquered in verses 1-2, Jesus Conquers the Beast in verses 3-4. 

Isaiah 24:21-22 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Zephaniah 3:8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and battle cry Against the fortified cities And the high corner towers. 

I will bring distress on men So that they will walk like the blind, Because they have sinned against the LORD; And their blood will be poured out like dust And their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 13:4-6 A sound of tumult on the mountains, Like that of many people! A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, Of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle. They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land. Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Ezekiel 30:3-4 "For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations. "A sword will come upon Egypt, And anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt, They take away her wealth, And her foundations are torn down.

Joel 3:12-14  Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Jeremiah 30:7-8 'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it. 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.

Amos 5:18-20 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light; As when a man flees from a lion And a bear meets him, Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall And a snake bites him. Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it?

Isaiah 2:12  For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning Against everyone who is proud and lofty And against everyone who is lifted up, That he may be abased.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1-2 Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,

Joel 2:2-4 A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns The land is like the garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them, And nothing at all escapes them. Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like war horses, so they run.

In Isaiah 10:20-27 God BREAKS THE YOKE of the Assyrian (Anti-Christ) as per being over Israel, ten we get this: Isaiah 11:11  Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

Malachi 4:1-2 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.

Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the LORD, "I will assemble the lame And gather the outcasts, Even those whom I have afflicted. "I will make the lame a remnant And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.

There are many more verses,  but you get the gist with these verses. If we study all of these verses we can understand this Day or the Lord is about much more than just the Sun, Moon and Stars going dark. Its about the defeat of the Assyrian Anti-Christ, the earth burning, the Wicked being destroyed etc. etc. etc. Its about A DAY in which God brings Judgment and Wrath upon mankind and the Wicked of the earth who serve the Beast. The Wrath will last for 1260 days, thus Israel are protected for 1260 days !! Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her Plagues, then we see the Women in Rev. 12 is protected for 1260 days. The Believing Jews escape to Petra, the Church is in Heaven, those who gave their lives to Christ after the Rapture have to lay down their lives, they are the Martyrs/Beheaded under the Alter via the 5th Seal. Of course if the can make it to Petra I suspect God would protect them there also. 

The Wrath of God starts with the First Seal and lasts for 42 Months or 1260 days until Jesus Returns. 

 

Yes, these are Day of the Lord's wrath verses. I know, read them all previously. I'm asking where scripture equates the 70th week, or GT, or a half the week, with God's wrath. I know what God's wrath looks like from the above verses and others but I don't see where GT and Wrath are equivalent in time, space, purpose or result. Scripture separates the two in Matt 24.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

The tribulation of those days is GT. No other explanation is possible.

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the sign of the coming of the Son of man, after the luminaries of the heavens go dark, after which everyone sees Jesus coming in power and glory. This is the beginning of wrath. Its the same event described here:

Rev 6

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

In parallel:

Matt 24, shall the sun be darkened,

Rev 6, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,

Matt 24, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...

Rev 6, there was a great earthquake;

Matt 24, and the stars shall fall from heaven...

Rev 6, And the stars of heaven fell...

For the great day of his wrath is come;

And it comes AFTER the GT.

Since wrath does not begin until after 'the tribulation of those days' and after the signs of His coming, how is it that wrath is the same as tribulation?

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20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

5.) No signs precede the Rapture, many signs precede the Second Coming.

This is not true according to pretrib rapture hypothesis.

I Thess 4:15-18 is the great proof of a pretrib rapture.

"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Three signs precede the supposed pretrib rapture. The Lord descending with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Three prophesied happenings before the 'rapture'. I'd have to say 'signs' precede the 'rapture'.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This is not true according to pretrib rapture hypothesis.

I Thess 4:15-18 is the great proof of a pretrib rapture.

"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Three signs precede the supposed pretrib rapture. The Lord descending with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Three prophesied happenings before the 'rapture'. I'd have to say 'signs' precede the 'rapture'.

 

1 Thessalonians was a letter.  There were originally no chapter or verse markers so it flows from 1 Thessalonians 4 into 1 Thessalonians 5 with no break.

 

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

The believers and saved are not in darkness.  The Destruction comes upon them that are not saved.  They are the ones who do not know it is coming.

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10 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Let's look at precisely what "satan comes to earth" entails.  As this is a spiritual event, humankind will not see "satan", but will see evidence of his works.  This is the time of Jacob's troubles.   A seven year period where the anti-christ gains prominence.

This began May 9th, 2012 when Obama announced gay marriage, an abomination that desolates a nation's spirit, in the USA, ie. God's third temple here on earth.

This announcement is overlooked as people have there own interpretations of when etc.  

So exactly what did satan do?  

Well, he sent Obama to finish setting up a shadow govt. in USA which Qanon is stating is being dismantled even as I type here.  These are satan's human minions here on earth.  Human leaders who follow satanism, a far more powerful energy than earth has ever seen.  Right now the Rothschilds lead this energic group (Plus saudi's etc.).   Qanon covers some of this briefly.  We only see this world wide organization when we look into Agenda 21, DEW usage in Santa Rosa,CA last year and current 5G rollout now. 

5G is a military weapon that is mind control.  That is another term for 'soul possession'.

 You must understand the level of technology in use far surpasses anything ever in existence.  Who or what is behind it has people confounded.  My insights from God says look to the Beast out the Ground to see who spiritually for satan is behind these out and out attacks on humanity.  We are talking about 'star' fleets and 'soul' harvesting now.  A subject no one will ever talk about.  Too easily dismissed by those who do not follow Jesus and do not follow high military tech rollouts now.  The Bible is clear these "frogs out of satan's mouth" go the kings/Presidents of our time.  They can exist in both 2nd Heaven and on earth therefore.  Satan's little helpers.

What exactly does the bible references as this 'shadow govt."?  It calls it the Beast out of the Sea, which is the UN (ie. started by Roosevelt, the head, which fell, and then was resurrected as a body of leaders in Oct. 1945).  The date the UN rose starts the 70 year clock (ie. the 70 weeks foretold, plus 7 days....to be precise, leading to the date the trib. saints actually resurrected, Oct. 31st, 2015).).

It is not satan's only tool.  He has two others as well.  As Rev. 16:19* states.  Babylon has three parts.  The other two is the witch clans and demon hordes (run by the Beast out of the ground, ie. an unclean spirit frog like thing (IT) we call a grey alien)).

 

*
King James Bible
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

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