Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Montana Marv]

Just now, Montana Marv said:

 

Response to eileenhats post.  If this 70th Week is already in place, and already 6 years into it, How is it that you can still but and sell?  The only ones who can buy and sell have the mark of the beast on them.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

On 6/10/2018 at 10:14 AM, Brother Duke said:

I see no reason why Rev 19 must be pre-trib only.

 

1)  Satan comes to earth and the wrath of the devil starts.

2) Saints are persecuted

3) Saints are raptured and caught up into the clouds with Christ.  <--- Marriage of the lamb.  We do not know how long this  consummation period is but it could be just a week or two.

4)  Gods Wrath / Christ returns with his bride and rids the world of  the unbelievers and tares.

 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 

I wasn't ignoring you brother. my blood pressure and sugar wet haywire yesterday, then I got nauseated. 

Satan is cast down around the Midway point and he has great wrath/anger, but Jesus allows his Anti-Christ to come forth and kicks Satan out of Heaven and down unto earth, so its Jesus' Wrath/Gods Wrath that brings this to pass. Its the start of the Day of the Lord Gods Wrath. There are no Saints being Raptured during the 70th week, that happens before the 70th week begins. All who die during the Tribulation will be raised and judged at the 20:4 Judgment Seat, hey are not Raptured to Heaven, mostly the Saints being spoken of in Revelation is the Jews, the same Saints spoken of in Daniel ch. 12 as being SCATTERED at the 1260 Event. 

The Jewish Marriage Custom  was always to stay in the Marriage Chambers for 7 DAYS (7 YEARS). 

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is not true according to pretrib rapture hypothesis.

I Thess 4:15-18 is the great proof of a pretrib rapture.

"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Three signs precede the supposed pretrib rapture. The Lord descending with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Three prophesied happenings before the 'rapture'. I'd have to say 'signs' precede the 'rapture'.

These are not signs brother, these happen instantaneously and no one can hear them but those of us with the Holy Spirit. The bible clearly states the Rapture (coming of the Lord) can not be known, but the Second Coming is clearly know, there is a countdown. From the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem he has exactly 1260 days to rule or 42 months. Each event is basically a countdown to Armageddon, 7 seal.....7 trumpets.....7 vials, everyone will see the 6th vial where the Beast gathers everyone unto Armageddon, who doesn't know Jesus is coming to meet them? Its just not a possibility that this event is the Rapture brother. This TRUMPET with a Loud voice means a reverberation. Its like Whales hearing a call that only they can hear, we Christians will hear this call home and go forth to Heaven, just like Rev. 19 says says. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, these are Day of the Lord's wrath verses. I know, read them all previously. I'm asking where scripture equates the 70th week, or GT, or a half the week, with God's wrath. I know what God's wrath looks like from the above verses and others but I don't see where GT and Wrath are equivalent in time, space, purpose or result. Scripture separates the two in Matt 24.

You can't see that the Wrath of God equates to the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments? Because its clearly there, burning with fire, killing the Arrogant etc. etc. Those verses above I quoted are so varied, they do not nor can they mean ONE DAY. They are about the Seven Seals, Trumpets and Vials. Rev. 19 is just so clear to me, I don't get people trying to deny it, its as if people want to go through Tribulation, but I suspect I know what it really is. There are many groups that tell everyone, "YOU ARE SPECIAL" you have this understanding no one else has, they are enticed like Eve was. I see how these groups work all the time. 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

The tribulation of those days is GT. No other explanation is possible.

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation/troubles of those days, the Sun and Moon goes Dark and you will see the Son of Man coming again. So do you think Jesus should have spelled out all 3.5 years of Gods Wrath? I think that's what he did by quoting Joel 2, the Jews knew what he meant, its the Wrath of God amidst TROUBLES, then Jesus shows up. People IMHO, over analyze these things but ignore Rev. 19, and believe me, they will dodge me and most do on what I see as the obvious. I am after the truth, not after personal glory about being right all the time. 

If you read Rev. 19 its obvious that after the Tribulation/TROUBLES of those days, Jesus and the Bride come back as Conquerors on White Horses. The Marriage Supper is the Carnage at Armageddon. Too many people want to hold on to ideas passed on or taught unto them by other men, that is why the Church is so all over the place on many things, even though most of the time the 80 percent of Christendom get it right, the other 20 percent will have multiple ideas that give the outside world the idea that we are confused or contradictory.

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then the sign of the coming of the Son of man, after the luminaries of the heavens go dark, after which everyone sees Jesus coming in power and glory. This is the beginning of wrath. Its the same event described here:

Rev 6

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

As I explained here before, God does not start things in the middle, He has perfect Symmetry. The Wrath of God starts with the First Seal being opened. The People on earth in the Vision John has, first understands this with the Heavenly signs, why would they think the WARS were a part of the Wrath of God?  Wars have been going on forever, but it STILL IS the Wrath of God they just don't realize it, the First Seal is when it begins.  Why would anyone think Gods Wrath is not in perfect Symmetry? I never got that at all. First Seal................7th Vial, that is how long Gods Wrath runs, Jesus is opening the Seals !! Its called the Lambs Wrath.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

In parallel:

Matt 24, shall the sun be darkened,

Rev 6, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,

Matt 24, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...

Rev 6, there was a great earthquake;

Matt 24, and the stars shall fall from heaven...

Rev 6, And the stars of heaven fell...

For the great day of his wrath is come;

And it comes AFTER the GT.

Since wrath does not begin until after 'the tribulation of those days' and after the signs of His coming, how is it that wrath is the same as tribulation?

After the GT Begins, thus the Day of the Lord is not one day but 1260 Days. All you have to do is read Rev. 19. There can be no Rev. 19 without a Pre Tribulation Rapture. We see the Church in Heaven before the First Seal is opened wearing their White Robes. We have to look at all the info.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (CHURCH) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

The Church is in Heaven just before Jesus Opens the Seal !!

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These came out of the Great Tribulation as in the 2000 year CHURCH AGE Tribulation.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Brother Duke]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These came out of the Great Tribulation as in the 2000 year CHURCH AGE Tribulation.

Do you believe the Saints that die in the tribulation are raptured also?  What happens to them?  How are they raptured after a pretrib rapture?  They died for Christ.  The dead in Christ are raptured first and then the living.   The Saints that die in tribulation should go before any living.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Brother Duke

[Daniel 11:36]

Of course those who become believers during the tribulation and are killed are raised at the end of the tribulation period

These are added to the pre-tribulation church

 

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

 

The pre-tribulation church are those who went to heaven before and are these

 

 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Brother Duke]

12 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Of course those who become believers during the tribulation and are killed are raised at the end of the tribulation period

These are added to the pre-tribulation church

 

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

 

The pre-tribulation church are those who went to heaven before and are these

 

 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

 

So there are two raptures then?

Pre-trib rapture dead

Pre-trib rapture living

Post-trib rapture dead

Post-trib rapture living?

[Daniel 11:36]

Both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal just before the beginning of the tribulation period

Then there will  be some who become believers during the tribulation period ..... those killed will be resurrected at the end

Those alive will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals

Not hard to understand 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Brother Duke]

6 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Then there will  be some who become believers during the tribulation period ..... those killed will be resurrected at the end

The end of what?

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Brother Duke

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You can't see that the Wrath of God equates to the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments? Because its clearly there, burning with fire, killing the Arrogant etc. etc. Those verses above I quoted are so varied, they do not nor can they mean ONE DAY. They are about the Seven Seals, Trumpets and Vials. Rev. 19 is just so clear, I don't get people trying to deny t, its as if people want to go through Tribulation, but I suspect I know what it really is. There is h groups that tell everyone, "YOU ARE SPECIAL" you have this understanding no one else has, they are enticed like Eve way. I see how these groups work all the time. 

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation/troubles of those days, the Sin and Moon goes Dark and you will see the Son of Man coming again. So do you think Jesus should have spelled out all 3.5 years of Gods Wrath? I think that's what he did by quoting Joel 2, the Jews knew what he meant, its the Wrath of God amidst TROUBLES, then Jesus shows up. People IMHO, over analyze these things put ignore Rev. 19, and believe me, they will dodge me all do long on what is obvious. I am after the truth, not after personal glory about being right all the rime. 

If you read Rev. 19 its obvious tat after the Tribulation/TROUBLES of those days, Jesus and the Bride come back as Conquerors on White Horses.The Marriage Supper is the Carnage at Armageddon. Too many people want to hold on to ideas passed or taught unto them by other men, that is why the Church is so all over the place on many things, even though most of the time the 80 percent of Christendom get it right, the other 20 percent will have multiple ideas that give the outside world the idea that we are confused.

 

I understand that you believe this. You offer many arguments. Problem is I can't just take this on your word. I doesn't matter what percentage of people believe a certain thing. It make no difference what any other individual or group says or does, it only matters that we act responsibly when it comes to scripture. But I do agree with you, it's frustrating sometimes. 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As I explained here before, God does not start things in the middle, He has perfect Symmetry. The Wrath of God starts with the First Seal being opened. The People on earth in the Vision John has first understands this with the Heavenly signs, why would they think the WARS were a part of the Wrath of God? Wars have been going on forever, but it STILL IS the Wrath of God, the First Seal is when it begins.  Why would anyone think Gods Wrath is not in perfect Symmetry? I never got that at all. First Seal................7th Vial, that is how long Gods Wrath runs, Jesus is opening the Seals !! Its called the Lambs Wrath.

And again, what's the scripture that equates the 1st seal, the whole week, half the week or GT, with God's wrath? I know you keep saying it and you are trying to be convincing, but why would I or anyone take your word for it? 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

After the GT Begins, thus the Day of the Lord is not one day but 1260 Days. All yo have to do is read Rev. 19. There can be no Rev. 19 without a Pre Tribulation Rapture. W see the Church in Heaven before the First Seal is opened wearing their White Robes. We have to look at all the info.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (CHURCH) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

The Church is in Heaven just before Jesus Opens the Seal !!

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These came out of the Great Tribulation as in the 2000 year CHURCH AGE Tribulation.

Rev 5:9-11 depicts the elders and the four living creatures singing a song. There are only 28 beings at this point singing a song of praise while holding vessels containing the prayers of the saints.  Fact is we are redeemed by the blood here on earth out of every people group. That we are God's kings and priests is another fact already in force while we are here on earth. To wit:

1 Peter 2:9, "9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation". We are already kings and priests.

Exodus 19:6, "...and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."(That's us, btw,)

This whole God's wrath thing goes further afield at an exponential rate. Now the last 2000 years is God's wrath? I think this pretrib obsession has got you firmly gripped in it's gnarly claws. Time to get out. Seriously, is that even reasonable? I don't think so.