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Revelation and the Study of Woe


Brother Duke

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On 6/6/2018 at 5:16 PM, Brother Duke said:

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I think the devil is the star that is cast down/falls and starts the tribulation.

I agree with the above, except for equating the angel with the key to Satan(dragon). What scripture equates them?

On 6/6/2018 at 5:25 PM, Brother Duke said:

  The great earthquake is also a marker 

Apologies if you covered this; A marker for what?

On 6/6/2018 at 5:29 PM, Brother Duke said:

3rd woe/The earthquake is the rapture/ressurection of all Christian's including the 2 witnesses.  Then begins the wrath.

I think the two witnesses show up at the very beginning of the last week. The ministry of these two must last 1260 days. If this was solely in the second half then the two would minister during the wrath of God near the end of the week. Are you suggesting an overlap between the two halves of the week?

It seems to be logical to place thier ministry only in the first half of the week because:

The beast comes to power at the start of the week, confirming the covenant with many, of which Israel is a part.

This covenant is doom for Israel.

The witnesses will prophesy against this covenant until the beast takes full authority and proclaims himself God 3.5 years from the beginning of the week.

Also because it's a neat and orderly solution; 1260 days, 3.5 years or half the last week. I like that. :)

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12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I agree with the above, except for equating the angel with the key to Satan(dragon). What scripture equates them?

Just that stars represent angels/spirits and they fall around the same time in the first woe.

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17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Apologies if you covered this; A marker for what?

As a timestamp to link similiar events.  How many great earthquakes are in Revelations?  I think they are all probably the same event.

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20 minutes ago, Diaste said:
On 6/6/2018 at 7:29 PM, Brother Duke said:

witnesses.  Then begins the wrath.

I think the two witnesses show up at the very beginning of the last week. The ministry of these two must last 1260 days. If this was solely in the second half then the two would minister during the wrath of God near the end of the week. Are you suggesting an overlap between the two halves of the week?

It seems to be logical to place thier ministry only in the first half of the week because:

The beast comes to power at the start of the week, confirming the covenant with many, of which Israel is a part.

This covenant is doom for Israel.

The witnesses will prophesy against this covenant until the beast takes full authority and proclaims himself God 3.5 years from the beginning of the week.

Also because it's a neat and orderly solution; 1260 days, 3.5 years or half the last week. I like that. :)

I think the 1st half of the 70th week is over and was completed when Christ died and was resurrected.

I believe the 2 witnesses start just before the great tribulation begins or near the beginning.  

I think they witness during the reign of the man of sin.  Then they are killed and resurrected at the end with the dead in Christ. 

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20 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Revelation Man,

 

Where does it say that a pre-raptured gentile church marries Christ and how many will be in this pre-raptured church? We know that the Tribulation Saints are so numerous that they cannot even be counted.  They are definitely part of the church since they die for Christ and are called Saints.

Revelation chapter 19 tells us that the Bride IN HEAVEN, Marries the Lamb, then returns on White Horses (which only means as Conquerors, just like the Anti-Christ on a White Horse is a CONQUEROR) to defeat the Anti-Christ/Beast and his Kings, Armageddon is THE MARRIAGE SUPPER, we Feast on the carnage and that is what Matthew 24:28 is speaking about, the Eagles (Church) will be at the CARCASS. Just read Revelation chapter 19, it tells you everything you need to know.

The so called Tribulation Saints you are referring to is Actually the RAPTURED CHURCH, most just do not understand what they are seeing because they cling to Men's Traditions via the "GREAT TRIBULATION" as if the phrase can only be the Greatest troubles ever, it can't be the 2000 year Church Age, because of course they have TUNNEL VISION, but that is exactly what it is, the 2000 year Church Age Saints as in 2000>7. What is GREATER? We try to pigeon hole Gods vocabulary here. Jesus said we would always have TRIBULATION, in Rev. 1:9 John told the Churches he was their brother in tribulation. 

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {{{ This is the RAPTURED CHURCH in Heaven. }}}

Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they ? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {{{ The GREAT TRIBULATION = the 2000 year Church Age here, not the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER !! We can prove it. }}}

Jesus tells the Beheaded Saints under the Alter at the 5th Seal that the MUST WAIT until their fellow brethren are KILLED in like manner as they were !!

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

{{{ This of course means they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is finished before they can be resurrected. They thus are told they have to REST/Sleep in their graves until Jesus defeats the beast and his minions, then in Rev. 20:4, they will Judged and they live and reign with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years !! Amen. }}}

20 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

We also know that the 144,000 that represent Israel are special to Christ since they end up coming back with him at his side.  I submit they are the remnant bride since the bride is at her husbands side.   Why does the gentile church not come back with Christ when he steps on  mount Zion?  They are also always with Christ.

The 144,000 is only a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL. It will actually be in the Millions since 1/3 of the Jews REPENT, the 12 x 12 x 12 only means ALL ISRAEL. The number 12 represents fullness, thus 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL will be Saved just like Paul who quoted Isaiah said.  NOTICE: The Angel hold back the Four Wind that it hurts not Sea, Trees nor the Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Well all this means is God orders the Angels not to bring the Plagues upon the earth, trees and seas until Israel escapes to Petra. Rev. ch 18:4 is the same event. Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her plagues is God yelling Israel to Flee unto Petra that she receives not of Babylon's (The Whole World) Plagues. 

The Church is with Christ, read Rev. ch. 19. We stop by and get the Jews from Petra on our way to kick the Beasts behind. 

The REMNANT CHURCH is seen in Rev. 12:17, they are the Saints who came to Christ after the Rapture, thus they are the BEHEADED, Israel are PROTECTED, thus the Dragon gets angry when he can't get at the Woman (Israel) and goes after the REMNANT which only means a small part of something that is left. 

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20 hours ago, Diaste said:

"But you have the Church taking the place of Israel during the 70th Week". No the church IS Israel and Israel is the church. They are the same. 

Col 3:11, "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28, "28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

1 Peter 4, "12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you,"

So the 1st century was going through a fiery ordeal, TO TEST THEM. And you say this, "the Church doesn't need to repent". I think you are going to be shocked at what's coming.

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

If it is HARD for the righteous to be saved? What? And you believe the church does not need to repent?

It's all by faith, always has been. How do you think Abram was called out and saved before there was the Law? Abram was saved before a Jewish nation existed. Abram was called by God and by faith left his home and family and followed God.

Listen;

Hebrews 11

By faith Abel....And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken....he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, 

7 By faith Noah....By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home...

 11 And by faith even Sarah, 

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died.

Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.(this is a reference to New Jerusalem, where all the faithful of all ages will gather and meet in the Lord.)

17 By faith Abraham...offered Isaac as a sacrifice.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, 

23 By faith Moses’ 

24 By faith Moses, 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value.  

27 By faith he left Egypt, 

28 By faith he kept the Passover 

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]

32......I do not have time to tell about Gideon,Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions,34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword;whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins,destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

This is the truth about Jesus Christ, faith and the church of God. It has always been Jesus from the foundation of the world, it has always been faith from the foundation of the world, and the church of God has always existed from the foundation of the world. Dispensationalism is a disgrace to the loving kindness and faithfulness of the grace and salvation of the Most High God and his son Jesus Christ. 

No the Church is not Israel, just like I stated that is replacement theology all because you are not hip to the scriptures brother. I have done this 1000's of times. Paul speaks clearly about the coming fate of ISRAEL and the coming fate of THE CHURCH. You conflate the two because of Paul's quote about how we are all Jews via FAITH, but he was speaking of Spiritual things, not physical things. 

We all will indeed come unto God in LIKE MANNER by Faith and FAITH ALONE, thus we all come unto God just like Faithful Abraham. But Israel is BLINDED IN PART, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Only after the Rapture are the scales released from Israels eyes. The Church is in Heaven, then Israel comes unto God BY FAITH just like Abraham did and just like the Church did.  

But we come unto God at DIFFERENT TIMES !! There are some Messianic Jews and always has been, thus Israel are only Blinded IN PART. But Israel as a Nation only repent when the Two-Witnesses show up at the 1335, which is 45 days before the AoD and 75 Days before the Holy people are SCATTERED or CONQUERED at the 1260. 

There ARE Male and FEMALES and there are Americans and Israelites and Gentiles and Jews. That was not Paul's point, the point was we must ALL COME to God by Faith and by FAITH ALONE, thus we are all the same. We are all made righteous by Faith. That in NO WISE changes the plight of the Church nor of the Jews.

Israel is the WHEAT who remain on the earth with the TARES until the END. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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39 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

{{{ This of course means they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is finished before they can be resurrected. They thus are told the have to REST/Sleep in their graves until Jesus defeats the beast and his minions, then in Rev. 20:4, they will Judged and they live and reign with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years !! Amen. }}}

Hi Revelation Man,

 

Does this mean you are not pre-trib if they are raptured?  I am pre-wrath myself.

 

41 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The 144,000 is only a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL. It will actually be in the Millions since 1/3 of the Jews REPENT, the 12 x 12 x 12 only means ALL ISRAEL. The number 12 represents fullness, thus 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL will be Saved just like Paul who quoted Isaiah said.  NOTICE: The Angel hold back the Four Wind that it hurts not Sea, Trees nor the Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Well all this means is God orders the Angels not to bring the Plagues upon the earth, trees and seas until Israel escapes to Petra. Rev. ch 18:4 is the same event. Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her plagues is God yelling Israel to Flee unto Petra that she receives not of Babylon's (The Whole World) Plagues. 

The Church is with Christ, read Rev. ch. 19. We stop by and get the Jews from Petra on our way to kick the Beasts behind. 

The REMNANT CHURCH is seen in Rev. 12:17, they are the Saints who came to Christ after the Rapture, thus they are the BEHEADED, Israel are PROTECTED, thus the Dragon gets angry when he can't get at the Woman (Israel) and goes after the REMNANT which only means a small part of something that is left. 

I see the 144,000 differently then most.  I think they are just a remnant of Israel and the Bride of Christ, the most faithful.  I think the greater Israel is represented with the Multitude of Saints.  

I think that the Woman of Rev 12, The 144k and the 2 witnesses are all the same group.  I know many think the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah but God said that Israel is his witnesses.  The 2 witnesses are also represented by the 2 olive trees like Israel is represented as an olive tree.

How does one witness that is Israel and one olive tree become two?   Israel was split up into two kingdoms or two witnesses.  The Southern Kingdom/Judah and the Northern Kingdom/Joseph.  I believe the woman in rev 12 is the church where the church is symbolically a women.  Also her offspring/the multitude are persecuted while the women just like the 2 witnesses are protected for 3.5 years.  Lastly the 144k are also sealed.  I believe that is because they are all the same group.

 

Anyway time will tell. I know we all see things in a different light.

 

God Bless,

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8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

... just like I stated that is replacement theology

In Christianity, supersessionism(replacement theology) is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God.

  1.  Charry ET. Supersessionism. in Green JB, Lapsley J, Miles R, Verhey A (editors). Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics. Baker Academic, 2011. ISBN 9780801034060
  2.  Carroll, James. Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001. Print. p. 58
  3. Johnson LT. Christians and Jews: Starting Over - Why the Real Dialogue Has Just Begun. Commonweal magazine. January 31, 2003. [1]

It's not really the point but I just thought I should clear this up.

So...

1 Peter 4.

"17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us,"

This really puts the fate of pretrib in doubt of core validity. To "wrath" we are not appointed, however judgement begins with us. Peter is identifying with the body of Christ here. 'Us'. The church which Peter helped grow tells us the time has come when judgment 'must begin' in God's own house. In God's house. The true home of the Lord, the body of believers both individual and corporate. And this is not a judgment already ongoing, as in 'has begin' or 'is now'; 'must begin' is future tense. Peter tells us the day is coming when the church will be judged. And this is in context of salvation. "18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved,", says the apostle. The fragment could read, "...forasmuch as the innocent are saved with difficulty...". It's also in the context of the fiery trial that Peter speaks to in verse 12 in that this fiery trial is not the judgment that 'must begin' at the house of God. 

The beast is coming for the church as the purifying fire to cleanse the sanctuary.

 

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9 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I think the 1st half of the 70th week is over and was completed when Christ died and was resurrected.

I have heard this before many times. It's never been explained through scriptural evidence but mostly by, 'I believe..." 

Do you have any scripture to show this could be the case?

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I have heard this before many times. It's never been explained through scriptural evidence but mostly by, 'I believe..." 

Do you have any scripture to show this could be the case?

 Daniel 9:256-27 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I believe the he in Daniel 9:27 is Christ.  Christ confirmed the new covenant in the 70th week.  In the middle of the week or 3.5 years into his ministry he was killed/cutoff and sacrifices were no longer needed. 

 

 

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