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Revelation and the Study of Woe


Brother Duke

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Really the 70th Week has not even started.  The 70th Week is a One Seven. Not a split and cut up Week.  The middle or mid point of a yardstick is at 18 inches. One must have both ends to achieve 18 inches, the same with the 70th Week.  The Seven years is continuous, with no breaks.  Scripture designates 7 - Sevens, 62 - Sevens, and a 1 - Seven.  This last Seven is a whole One Seven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 144,000 is only a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL.

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

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19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 70th Week has nothing to do with the Church nor are we on earth during the 70th Week. 

And there is the core and crux of our various disagreements on eschatology.  All arguments about the timings, meanings, and identifications of people in Daniel's 70th week all hinge on this, don't they?  The reason I rejected the premise stated above is that I see Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 as referring to the same event.  Once I rejected the pretribulation rapture of the church, many other things changed as well.  I do see a definite difference between national Israel and the church.  There is also a difference between fleshly Israel (those born Jews) and believing Jews of all ages or dispensations.  It is the second group into which we have been grafted and thereby inherit the kingdom. I could be wrong, but I have found plenty of scripture to support my position. (This in no way makes me think that those who disagree are lost or heretics or anything else.)

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Romans 9:6-7 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ephesians 2:11-13 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 

Ephesians 3:2-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

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4 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I believe the he in Daniel 9:27 is Christ.  Christ confirmed the new covenant in the 70th week.  In the middle of the week or 3.5 years into his ministry he was killed/cutoff and sacrifices were no longer needed. 

This seems to be a modified Historicist position. Futurists hold to the belief that Daniels 70th week is future in its entirety.  I am  not calling you a Historicist, but you may have read behind some Historicists in the past.   Check out this link -http://historicist.info/articles2/historicistvsfuturist.htm

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14 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I believe the woman in rev 12 is the church where the church is symbolically a women.

I believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, not the church.  The church did not give birth to Christ, Israel as pertaining to the flesh did. That is the main reason for my objection. I agree with a lot of other things you said, so this is not a blanket condemnation of your positions. 

Revelation 12:1-7 ¶ …  a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 … and behold a great red dragon, … 4 … and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 

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1 hour ago, JoeChan82 said:

This seems to be a modified Historicist position. Futurists hold to the belief that Daniels 70th week is future in its entirety.  I am  not calling you a Historicist, but you may have read behind some Historicists in the past.   Check out this link -http://historicist.info/articles2/historicistvsfuturist.htm

After reading the link I think I am in between.  ;)  I believe much prophecy was fulfilled in the past but there is still a lot of unfulfilled prophecy still.

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2 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

The Jews may be the only tribe that can still trace themselves.  There are still some from the tribe of Benjamin who have been absorbed into Judah also and the Levites that were part of Judah or the Southern Kingdom.

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17 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Revelation Man,

 

Does this mean you are not pre-trib if they are raptured?  I am pre-wrath myself.

 

I am Pre-tribulation. Why would the Tribulation Saints have anything to d with the Rapture when they are raised at the Second Coming? 

17 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I see the 144,000 differently then most.  I think they are just a remnant of Israel and the Bride of Christ, the most faithful.  I think the greater Israel is represented with the Multitude of Saints.  

I think that the Woman of Rev 12, The 144k and the 2 witnesses are all the same group.  I know many think the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah but God said that Israel is his witnesses.  The 2 witnesses are also represented by the 2 olive trees like Israel is represented as an olive tree.

How does one witness that is Israel and one olive tree become two?   Israel was split up into two kingdoms or two witnesses.  The Southern Kingdom/Judah and the Northern Kingdom/Joseph.  I believe the woman in rev 12 is the church where the church is symbolically a women.  Also her offspring/the multitude are persecuted while the women just like the 2 witnesses are protected for 3.5 years.  Lastly the 144k are also sealed.  I believe that is because they are all the same group.

 

Anyway time will tell. I know we all see things in a different light.

 

The Bride of Christ marries Jesus in Heaven (Church), the Jews remain on earth (Wheat) along with the Tares. The Two-witnesses are Elijah and probably Moses since they were transfigured with Jesus on the Mount, that makes sense. 

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17 hours ago, Diaste said:

In Christianity, supersessionism(replacement theology) is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God.

  1.  Charry ET. Supersessionism. in Green JB, Lapsley J, Miles R, Verhey A (editors). Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics. Baker Academic, 2011. ISBN 9780801034060
  2.  Carroll, James. Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001. Print. p. 58
  3. Johnson LT. Christians and Jews: Starting Over - Why the Real Dialogue Has Just Begun. Commonweal magazine. January 31, 2003. [1]

It's not really the point but I just thought I should clear this up.

So...

1 Peter 4.

"17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us,"

This really puts the fate of pretrib in doubt of core validity. To "wrath" we are not appointed, however judgement begins with us. Peter is identifying with the body of Christ here. 'Us'. The church which Peter helped grow tells us the time has come when judgment 'must begin' in God's own house. In God's house. The true home of the Lord, the body of believers both individual and corporate. And this is not a judgment already ongoing, as in 'has begin' or 'is now'; 'must begin' is future tense. Peter tells us the day is coming when the church will be judged. And this is in context of salvation. "18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved,", says the apostle. The fragment could read, "...forasmuch as the innocent are saved with difficulty...". It's also in the context of the fiery trial that Peter speaks to in verse 12 in that this fiery trial is not the judgment that 'must begin' at the house of God. 

The beast is coming for the church as the purifying fire to cleanse the sanctuary.

 

 

You were placing the Church in Israels place, you can call it what you will brother, I know something when I see it. You are still confusing the Church and Israel and their paths. 

As per the 1 Peter 4:17 verse, this is why we can't pick verses out and not place them in their perfect context. So you think that verses shows end time judgment? I don't see it that way.....read the chapter. It is about men living at Paul's time judging themselves and living via/in Christs righteousness.  That verse, that chapter nor that context is about end time judgment. 

Its an easy read brother, its not even that complex to see that its speaking about men in THAT TIME PERIOD. 

The Church will be in Heaven when the Beast arises. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

Edited by Revelation Man
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32 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You were placing the Church on Israels place, you can call it what you will brother, I know something when I see it. You are still confusing the Church and Israel and their paths. 

As per the 1 Peter 4:17 verse, this is why we can't pick verses out and not place them in their perfect context. So you think that verses shows end time judgment? I don't see it that way.....read the chapter. It is about men living at Paul's time judging themselves and living via/in Christs righteousness.  That verse, that chapter nor that context is about end time judgment. 

Its an easy read brother, its not even that complex to see its speaking about men in THAT TIM PERIOD. 

The Church will be in Heaven when the Beast arises. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

Won't matter 'how you see it'. It will happen no matter what we personally believe. Best to be sanctified in the Lord's grace and truth and be ready before the time comes.

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