Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

So I take it you are a Messianic Jew, God bless brother. 

4 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

And there is the core and crux of our various disagreements on eschatology.  All arguments about the timings, meanings, and identifications of people in Daniel's 70th week all hinge on this, don't they?  The reason I rejected the premise stated above is that I see Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 as referring to the same event.  Once I rejected the pretribulation rapture of the church, many other things changed as well.  I do see a definite difference between national Israel and the church.  There is also a difference between fleshly Israel (those born Jews) and believing Jews of all ages or dispensations.  It is the second group into which we have been grafted and thereby inherit the kingdom. I could be wrong, but I have found plenty of scripture to support my position. (This in no way makes me think that those who disagree are lost or heretics or anything else.)

 

What part of Matthew 24 ? Because its a range of different periods. Matt. 24:1-6 is from Jesus unto the 70 AD Event. Matt. 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matt. 24:15-31 is the 70th Week or the 3.5 years of Gods Wrath during Jacobs Troubles which happen during the 70th Week. 

As per 1 Thess. 4 that is the Rapture of course. Believe me, I know how Satan uses scriptures to confuse people when he can. You see of you have a Pre-tribulation Rapture (and we do) then you also have to have a post Tribulation Second Coming so what does the scriptures tell us is true? Well Rev. ch. 19 is where you need to start. The Church is seen in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb, then returning with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Kings who are ARE STILL ON EARTH. Everyone else needs to align with this passage or it can'r be true. We are IN HEAVEN, then we RETURN. 

1. Thess 4 can align with Rev. ch. 19, we are Raptured to Heaven. (TRUTH). Matthew 24:31 can align with Rev. 19, we return with Jesus IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Revelation can not even exist as a chapter without a pre-tribulation rapture, the other two chapters can be explained. 

Check this out, it might help your thinking a little o this subject.

God gives us shadow's of things to come. In Leviticus 23 via the Feasts God gave us a history of coming events, a foreshadowing so to speak.

Spring Feasts { Jesus fulfilled these upon his death and resurrection. }

1.) Feast of Passover---Jesus is our Passover via his blood covering our sins.

2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread---Jesus was without Sins.

3.) Feast of First-fruits---Jesus was the First-fruits of the grave.

 

The Summer Harvest is on the Calendar all unto itself just like the....CHURCH AGE....Or Pentecost.

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/Harvest---Jesus gave the Church the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, better known as the Harvest in essence. We are the Church or Body that is Harvesting for the Sower Jesus Christ during the 2000 year Church Age. What always ended the Harvest? Why of course it was the Feast of Trumpets blowing (GET IT? The Last Trump) The Trumpets never did anything in reality but make Announcements. The Pentecost was OVER and the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were nigh !! 

 

Fall Feasts { Yet to be fulfilled of course. }

5.) Feast of Trumpets---This ends the Church Age and thus Israel is back on the clock, during the 70th Week of Judgment she MUST REPENT !!

6.) Feast of Atonement---Israel Atones for her sins, Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah is sent back to turn Israel back  unto God. A 1/3 of the Jews repent, 2/3 seemingly do not. All Israel means Israel as a Nation repents, not every Jew. Those that BELIEVE are of Faithful Abraham and are protected 1260 days.

7.) Feast of Tabernacle---To Tabernacle means to "Dwell with God", well Jesus reigns from Jerusalem for 1000 years, I would call that Dwelling with God. Thus the Feasts have in them a shadow of things to come. The FEAST OF TRUMPS = The Last Trump Paul is speaking about. 

The Beasts SKIP 200 years from Rome/Fierce Beast to the Little Horn and his 10 Kings. The Statue SKIPS 2000 years from the Iron Kingdom to the Feet of Iron & Clay with 10 toes. The 70th Week SKIPS 2000 some odd years until after the Rapture.

God is showing us a SNAP-SHOT of Israel's whole lifespan. God we know, via Ezekiel 37, saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years until 1948. Thus all the 2000 year SKIPS !! Paul said that Israel is blinded IN PART (There are some messianic Jews like you/Paul/Peter Etc.) until the time/fullness of the Gentiles be come in. This of course means Israel takes the final stage, after the Rapture of the Gentile Church. 

God Bless brother.

 

 

[Brother Duke]

5 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Israel, not the church.  The church did not give birth to Christ, Israel as pertaining to the flesh did. That is the main reason for my objection. I agree with a lot of other things you said, so this is not a blanket condemnation of your positions. 

To me Israel and the church or assembly are the same thing.  I think of the woman of Rev 12, the 2 witnesses and also the 144K as rememnant Israel who restart up the ministry of Christ witnessing in the end times.  They will be sealed with the Holy Spirit and a multitude of people will come to the truth with their help and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You were placing the Church on Israels place, you can call it what you will brother, I know something when I see it. You are still confusing the Church and Israel and their paths. 

As per the 1 Peter 4:17 verse, this is why we can't pick verses out and not place them in their perfect context. So you think that verses shows end time judgment? I don't see it that way.....read the chapter. It is about men living at Paul's time judging themselves and living via/in Christs righteousness.  That verse, that chapter nor that context is about end time judgment. 

Its an easy read brother, its not even that complex to see its speaking about men in THAT TIM PERIOD. 

The Church will be in Heaven when the Beast arises. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The Holy Scriptures tell us that we (the church) are overcomers not by physically prevailing over our enemies, but by our faith, perseverance, and faithfulness even unto death.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

[Daniel 11:36]

Revelation 12 is only focused upon the Lord, Satan, and Israel  

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The Holy Scriptures tell us that we (the church) are overcomers not by physically prevailing over our enemies, but by our faith, perseverance, and faithfulness even unto death.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

And likewise by those very tactics the Church can not be overcome by Satan. We are the Church whereas the BEAST received its Mortal Wound. When the Church is Raptured the Beast will be allowed to start Conquering the World as Rome left off in its march towards a one world Government. 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

22 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Revelation 12 is only focused upon the Lord, Satan, and Israel  

TRUTH................I see your name is about Daniel 11. I have an Exegesis on Daniel 11 & 12 that tells who every king is and explains chapter 12. I realized to late that chapter 10 is a part of the same vision, but I have been thinking about posting it. I might do just that. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

TRUTH................I see your name is about Daniel 11. I have an Exegesis on Daniel 11 & 12 that tells who every king is and explains chapter 12. I realized to late that chapter 10 is a part of the same vision, but I have been thinking about posting it. I might do just that. 

Noooo.... that screen name is, Daniel 11:36 ³"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods...."

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

The Jews may be the only tribe that can still trace themselves.  There are still some from the tribe of Benjamin who have been absorbed into Judah also and the Levites that were part of Judah or the Southern Kingdom.

God knows. The 12,000 from the 12 tribes might not know who they are, but the Lord has kept track. 144,000 "

Rev 14:4, "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. ⁵ No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

Speculating, one might think these are very young, preteens perhaps. In this age to be a virgin and blameless and so honest no lie was found? Not gonna be 20 somethings. IMO.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

The Lord knows. The Lord is in full control with full knowledge of the lineage of Israel. This is not up to mankind.

[Diaste]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:40 PM, Revelation Man said:

Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

I'm convinced this passage from Matt 16 is a metaphor for death and the grave.  It's not about spiritual battle, Jesus is saying death and the grave will not overpower His people, they will be resurrected. Pretrib always has to make up some grand narrative about any straw they can grasp. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Diaste