Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Last Daze]

18 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

When you say this: 

"Sorry, I really don't know what you were trying to show us here. Whatever it was, I disagree. "

That tells me that you have a doctrine built on fiction and not scripture.   And then say that I change the order of revelation.   How could you possibly believe that when you don't understand what I said?

I have no further comments. 

The PuP 

Yeah, that was classic.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

When you say this: 

"Sorry, I really don't know what you were trying to show us here. Whatever it was, I disagree. "

That tells me that you have a doctrine built on fiction and not scripture.   And then say that I change the order of revelation.   How could you possibly believe that when you don't understand what I said?

I have no further comments. 

The PuP 

No, not really. It means you disagree with my doctrine. And chances are probably much higher it is you who have it wrong. 

Anyone who links the 6th seal with the Matthew 24 signs in the sun and moon is rearranging Revelation to fit their theory. 

The truth is, the 6th seal comes before the 70th week begins, (it begins with the 7th seal) and the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 will come just before Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19. That Revelation 19 coming will be AT LEAST 7 plus years after His coming FOR His bride just before the 6th seal.  This is John's chronology. Do you believe it as written?

"Sorry, I really don't know what you were trying to show us here. Whatever it was, I disagree. "

Let me give an example:  What were you trying to prove with this verse?

[[Luk 17:29]] KJV* But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. *30* Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

If you were trying to tie this verse to the 6th seal, which I think you were, you are mistaken. This is speaking of His coming as shown in Rev.19, NOT His coming as written in 1 Thes. 4.  These are two different comings for two different purposes. 

Anyone can tie verses together is if they fit. Example:

 

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Here are three verses put together as if to tell a story. Were they meant by the Author to be together? 

Edited July 11, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

On 7/11/2018 at 8:23 AM, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the 6th seal comes before the 70th week begins

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, by your statement I take it that you believe that the seventieth week is yet future. I do also. Let's consider what Scriptures there are which tie eschatological events to the seventieth week.

Jesus ties the beginning of the great tribulation to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. He says that the defiling of the Temple will be a sign that unprecedented persecution is about to begin.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The prophecy from Daniel that He referred to mentions that the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst (middle) of the seventieth week.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, roughly 3.5 years after the seventieth week has started and 3.5 years before its end the great tribulation begins with the man of sin standing in the Temple shewing himself to be God. That how Paul described the same event (2Thes 2:3-4).

What is the great tribulation?

It is the time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel. How do we know this? The "therefore" in Matt 24:15 lets us know that Christ is adding further detail to what He previously said about the future time of violent persecution that will serve as a sign that His coming approaches.

The "then" in verse 9 indicates that after the beginning of sorrows (which Jesus said was not yet the end) would come violent persecution. Later in verse 21 He says this persecution will be unparalleled in scope and severity.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

He says that the result of the violent persecution will be that many are offended, that is that they depart from the faith like those who received seed into stony ground (Matt 13:20-21). Leaving the faith to follow the beast they will betray and hate us.

Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

That time will also be characterized by supernatural deception.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The souls under the alter that John sees at the opening of the fifth seal suffered such martyrdom. They will be crying out to be avenged, but are told that they must wait a little season till more of their brethren are slain. Only then will God's wrath fall upon their persecutors. This is the promise of vengeance.

At the opening of the sixth seal, John witnesses the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the day of the Lord. He also witnesses the reaction of the world to Christ's revelation.

Revelation chapter 7 verses 9-17 shows the elect, having just been raptured, standing before the throne of God. These were resurrected/changed/raptured out of great tribulation. Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation even though the beast continues for what remains of his given 42 months.

Revelation chapter 8 shows the beginning of the pouring out of God's wrath, starting with the first trumpet judgement. This is the wrath of God that begins on the first day of the "day of the Lord".

What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord which comes after the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week. The 6th seal events take place at the beginning of the last portion of the second half of the week.

Hallelujah

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, by your statement I take it that you believe that the seventieth week is yet future. I do also. Let's consider what Scriptures there are which tie eschatological events to the seventieth week.

Jesus ties the beginning of the great tribulation to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. He says that the defiling of the Temple will be a sign that unprecedented persecution is about to begin.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The prophecy from Daniel that He referred to mentions that the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst (middle) of the seventieth week.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, roughly 3.5 years after the seventieth week has started and 3.5 years before its end the great tribulation begins with the man of sin standing in the Temple shewing himself to be God. That how Paul described the same event (2Thes 2:3-4).

What is the great tribulation?

It is the time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel. How do we know this? The "therefore" in Matt 24:15 lets us know that Christ is adding further detail to what He previously said about the future time of violent persecution that will serve as a sign that His coming approaches.

The "then" in verse 9 indicates that after the beginning of sorrows (which Jesus said was not yet the end) would come violent persecution. Later in verse 21 He says this persecution will be unparalleled in scope and severity.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

He says that the result of the violent persecution will be that many are offended, that is that they depart from the faith like those who received seed into stony ground (Matt 13:20-21). Leaving the faith to follow the beast they will betray and hate us.

Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

That time will also be characterized by supernatural deception.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The souls under the alter that John sees at the opening of the fifth seal suffered such martyrdom. They will be crying out to be avenged, but are told that they must wait a little season till more of their brethren are slain. Only then will God's wrath fall upon their persecutors. This is the promise of vengeance.

At the opening of the sixth seal, John witnesses the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the day of the Lord. He also witnesses the reaction of the world to Christ's revelation.

Revelation chapter 7 verses 9-17 shows the elect, having just been raptured, standing before the throne of God. These were resurrected/changed/raptured out of great tribulation. Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation even though the beast continues for what remains of his given 42 months.

Revelation chapter 8 shows the beginning of the pouring out of God's wrath, starting with the first trumpet judgement. This is the wrath of God that begins on the first day of the "day of the Lord".

What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord which comes after the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week. The 6th seal events take place at the beginning of the last portion of the second half of the week.

Hallelujah

 

Yes, the 70th week is future. However, in Matthew 24, Jesus does not get to the 70th week until verse 15 where He mentions the abomination. He skipped over the first half of the week.  He does not mention "the end" until verse 13. All verses previous to verse 13 are to be understood as church age events.  

Agreed: the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin until some unknown time after the abomination event that will divide the week into two halves. 

Please note, Jesus does not return at the 6th seal. He comes to the air just before the 6th seal to call up His bride (Paul's rapture event). But He does not return to do battle until chapter 19, after the 70th week has ended. 

Matthew 24:9-11 are all church age events, NOT 70th week events. However, some of these events may well be repeated during the 70th week.

The great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7 are certain from "great tribulation" but John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint. Therefore John is not telling us these came out of the "GT" that Jesus was speaking of - that will come much later in Revelation. The truth is, when people are put to death for their love for Jesus Christ, it is GT. How could it be greater for them? They cannot be killed twice. Therefore, God calls the days we are living in now, "great tribulation." But they are NOT the days He was talking about that will come through the Beast and False prophet, much later in Revelation. 

"Christ's removal of the elect from the earth effectively ended the great tribulation"  Sorry, but this is total myth and completely opposed to the truth of scripture.  Don't take my word for it, read: the days of GT foretold by Jesus cannot begin until the image is erected, and people are forced to bow to the image or die. And not until the mark is created and then they force all to receive the mark or die. These events (found in chapter 13) are what CAUSE the days of GT Jesus spoke of. But they do not start until AFTER chapter 14 where God gives the warning not to accept the mark. Finally, in chapter 15 we see the beheaded saints begin to arrive in heaven. In other words, the days of GT that Jesus spoke of WILL NOT BEGIN until late in chapter 14 or before chapter 15. Prewrath theory is bogus!  

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. You are doing VAST rearranging. Your theory will be proven wrong. 

Chapter 8 begins the trumpet judgments, and they certainly come with God's wrath. They come in the first half of the week. The week begins with the 7th seal and the 30 minutes of silence. What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord which comes after the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week. The 6th seal events take place at the beginning of the last portion of the second half of the week.  You are completely rearranging John's book! Your theory will be proven wrong. There is no need to rearrange! Just as it is written, John's book fits perfectly with all other end times scriptures correctly understood.  John's God given chronology:

6th seal begins the wrath of God.

7th seal officially begins the 70th week

The first 6 trumpets come in the first half of the week

The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint

12:6 shows those in Judea beginning to flee

Chapter 12 Satan is cast down very angry, possesses the man of sin who turns Beast.

Some unknown time later, the False prophet shows up.

They initiate an image being erected and the mark created.

AFTER chapter 14, they begin their regime of murder, forcing all to worship the beast or die

They force all to receive their mark, or they cannot buy or sell.

The days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of begins 

The beheaded begin to show up in chapter 15.

In chapter 16, God begins pouring out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days of GT

At the 7th vial, the last 1260 days are finished and the 70th week will end.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, the 70th week is future. However, in Matthew 24, Jesus does not get to the 70th week until verse 15 where He mentions the abomination. He skipped over the first half of the week.  He does not mention "the end" until verse 13. All verses previous to verse 13 are to be understood as church age events.  

I agree, but I think verse 13 means the END of ones life, like Paul stated, we must run the FULL RACE to the end so to speak. I don't buy the once saved always saved stuff, so I think Jesus is saying we must endure the TRIALS & TRIBULATIONS until the End, then verse 14 speaks about the Gospel going unto the whole world, and THEN the end will come..........transition to the 1290 (AoD), which is 30 days before the 1260. Thus we are basically in the Middle of the Week via verse 15, thus the 70th week has already started, thus the Rapture has already passed. (I'll go through it at the bottom). 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed: the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin until some unknown time after the abomination event that will divide the week into two halves. 

Please note, Jesus does not return at the 6th seal. He comes to the air just before the 6th seal to call up His bride (Paul's rapture event). But He does not return to do battle until chapter 19, after the 70th week has ended. 

The Greatest Troubles ever indeed start with the First Seal being opened, which happens 30 days after the AoD. Jesus calls up his bride for a full 7 Years, which is why I do not understand how you can have a Middle of the Week Rapture. Chapter 19 is no a REAL TIME EVENT, He returns in chapter 16 at the 7th Via which ends the 3rd Woe. Chapters 11,12,13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, not real time events. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Matthew 24:9-11 are all church age events, NOT 70th week events. However, some of these events may well be repeated during the 70th week.

 

Agreed, from Matthew 24:1-6 is 70 AD, from verse 7-14 is Church Age Events. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7 are certain from "great tribulation" but John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint. Therefore John is not telling us these came out of the "GT" that Jesus was speaking of - that will come much later in Revelation. The truth is, when people are put to death for their love for Jesus Christ, it is GT. How could it be greater for them? They cannot be killed twice. Therefore, God calls the days we are living in now, "great tribulation." But they are NOT the days He was talking about that will come through the Beast and False prophet, much later in Revelation. 

This where I think you really get discombobulated, don't take umbrage, I couldn't understand all of this for years and was just given it all in the last couple of years, and my calling is Prophecy, and I have been preaching over 30 years, sometimes I was like why Lord the dark clouds of secrecy, but of course Gods riming is perfect.

The Midway point is the First Seal, where the POWER of the holy peoples are SCATTERED, the White horse is the Anti-Christ who Conquers the Jews and the Mediterranean Sea Region. What is it that keeps you from getting this timing right brother ? I am really trying to understand here. 

The GREAT TRIBULATION in Rev. 7 is the 2000 year Church Age, not the 70th week. Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation, 1000's died via Rome, millions have been slaughtered from the time Christ died for Jesus' name. 2000 is GREATER than 7. The Great Tribulation as per what John was mentioning was the 2000 year Church Age, thus those shown in Rev. ch. 7, who are wearing White Robes, have already by that point married the Lamb, which means a PART of Rev. 19 has already happened by that time !! Rev. 19 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, its a set-a-side story about the Bride and Jesus, Rev. 14 is a set-a-side story about the Rapture and Armageddon, Rev. 17 happens during Rev. ch. 6, Rev. 18 happens from Rev. ch. 6 to Rev. ch. 16, it is the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments hitting Babylon (WHOLE WORLD).  Rev. 12 is about the Jews Fleeing Judea, it happens in Rev. ch. 6. Rev. 13 is the Beast coming to power it happens in Rev. ch. 6. 

Great can be used in different ways, GREATEST TROUBLES speak of a specific time. GREAT TRIBULATION can and does mean via John a PERIOD OF TIME that is the LARGER of two periods of time. As in 2000 is GREATER than 7. 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this is total myth and completely opposed to the truth of scripture.  Don't take my word for it, read: the days of GT foretold by Jesus cannot begin until the image is erected, and people are forced to bow to the image or die. And not until the mark is created and then they force all to receive the mark or die. These events (found in chapter 13) are what CAUSE the days of GT Jesus spoke of. But they do not start until AFTER chapter 14 where God gives the warning not to accept the mark. Finally, in chapter 15 we see the beheaded saints begin to arrive in heaven. In other words, the days of GT that Jesus spoke of WILL NOT BEGIN until late in chapter 14 or before chapter 15. Prewrath theory is bogus!  

True on the Tribulation Jesus spoke of. The Events start in chapter 13 brother. Pardon the frankness, but I now see what throws you off, you do no understand that Rev. 13 is a Parenthetical Citation, you are trying to fit it into the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation, and that is not how it is written brother. The First Seal is the Anti-Christ BECOMING the Beast, and Rev. 13 is THE BEAST arising from the Sea, Daniel 11:40-45 is the exact same thing brother, they are ALL THREE the same events.   Chapter 14 is another set-a-side chapter, its about the Harvest of the Righteous in Christ in verse 14 and the Wicked of Satan that he put in the Wine-press of his Wrath, this happens in Rev 16:19. Its the SAME THING. The Middle of the Week must start with the First Seal as does Gods Wrath.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

6th seal begins the wrath of God.

7th seal officially begins the 70th week

The first 6 trumpets come in the first half of the week

The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint

12:6 shows those in Judea beginning to flee

Like I stated, you see Rev. 12 as a REAL TIME EVENT, thus everything as your PER TIMING is thrown off kilter. 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 12 Satan is cast down very angry, possesses the man of sin who turns Beast.

 

When the Stars (angels are called stars) are cast down in Rev. ch. 6, I see that as Satan being cast down unto earth. 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 Some unknown time later, the False prophet shows up.

 

The False Prophet places the Image (AoD) in the Temple at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260 (Middle of the week). 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The beheaded begin to show up in chapter 15.

In chapter 16, God begins pouring out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days of GT

Nothing is shortened, Jesus is speaking as per to WHY it was 7 YEARS to begin with. I don't get why anyone thinks God had to change His plans as per the timing, God knows all. Hes speaking about why its only SEVEN YEARS to begin with. 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

At the 7th vial, the last 1260 days are finished and the 70th week will end.

We agree here.......Take no offense brother, this is not stuff God was revealing even 5 years ago. I will try to go over everything below as per the order of things. It can be confusing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Revelation Time Line

The Church Age = Rev. chapters 1-3, it is only Jesus praising and rebuking Seven TYPES of Churches via Asia Minor.

The Rapture of the Church 

Rev. 4:1 is in all reality relative to John since he will be Raptured at the very time all the rest of us will be Raptured, just before the 70th week. Remember, there is 3.5 years of PEACE and we know this via Dan. 9:27 and Dan. 8:25, even via Rev. ch. 6 where the Red Horse takes away the PEACE from earth. So John being Raptured in ch. 4 is in essence a TYPE of the Church being Raptured just before the 70th week begins, then we see the Church Elders in Heaven with White Raiment (Robes) on in Rev. 4:4 and we see the Church saying Christ has REDEEMED US in Rev. 5:9 . Lets compare all of the VERSES:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Thus those scriptures ABOVE must happen after the scriptures BELOW: In Rev. 4:4 we see the White Robes on, in Rev. 5:9 we see they are REDEEMED. They Marriage happens in Rev. 19:7-8. 

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So wrapping these two chapters up, Jesus is about to open the First Seal, he is found Worthy to open the Sealed Scroll. The Anti-Christ comes forth in the Middle of the Week or at the 1260 to Conquer and thus he becomes the Beast. Thus the First Seal is the Middle of the Week. Thus Rev. 6:1 is the 1260, everything after the First Seal is a part of the last half of the 70th Week. Rev. 19, as I have proven, has already begun before the First Seal is broken, the Bride has her White Robes on in Rev. ch. 4 and 5. The Marriage Supper in Rev. 19 is the battle of Armageddon in Rev. 16. 

The Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments

Revelation chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15 and 16 (I think 15 and 16 should be one chapter) are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, with chapter 7 showing the Raptured Church in Heaven at the Midway point and also showing the Jews (144,000) Fleeing Judea and being protected by God in Petra before God starts burning the tress, hurting the earth, and hurting the seas, or in essence, bringing forth the Supernatural Plagues against mankind spoken about via the Seal, Trumpets and Vials of Gods Wrath. Gods Wrath starts via allowing the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering, thus he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people, of course the Church has been Raptured, and there are only s many Jews, so who is he killing ? The Harlot of Course or all those who worship Gods already in place who will not worship him, think Islam, think Muslims !! He will wipe out the Harlot (All False Religions) at this point, see Rev. 17:16, the 10 Kings hate the Harlot and kill her off. He will kill the 2/3 Jews who do not repent and chase the 1/3 of the Jews who do repent into the Wilderness or Petra, that is what happens via the 144,000 in Rev. ch. 7. He will kill the REMNANT CHURCH who gave their lives unto Christ after the Rapture. But most will be Muslims, they will have to be, who refuse to worship the Beast and/or take the Mark of the Beast, the Harlot is judged, Islam and all False Religions will be wiped out (Rev. 17) this man desires to be worshiped as the only god. Rev. ch. 18 is Babylon (Whole World) being hit with all of these Judgments.

So the  fourth (1/4) of all mankind that are killed happens in Rev. ch. 6, that is the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer and Conquering. He thus takes Peace from the earth (Seal #2 or Red horse), which is how he came to power, via a FAKE PEACE, of course. He conquers Israel and THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Region Nations), then he eventually Conquers the whole world in some shape, form or fashion. So these events described above are describing Rev. ch. 13, when the Beast Arises out of the [Mediterranean] Sea (Midway point). They also describe Rev. 12, when Israel Flees Judea at the Midway point (1260/1290) and are protected for 1260 days. Rev. 12 and 13 are set-a-side chapters, not real time events. Think Parenthetical Citations. 

Turning to the Trumpet judgments in Rev. ch.8 (Israel are already protected) we see the burning trees, the earth being hurt and the seas being hurt. Which lead me to think the First Four Seals all happen almost at once, back, to back, to back so to speak and the effect of each Seal takes time, the deaths come over time, the Religions are wiped out over time, not a long drawn out time period, but it will take some time. Then we see the Evidence of the Beasts Murderous ways via the 5th Seal, and the 6th Seal brings fort the Supernatural Judgments, thus these people who have been in the Wrath of God from the First Seal on, only now understand they are in the Wrath of the Lamb/God.  

The Three Woes start in Rev. 9:1 with the First Woe, Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. ch. 17 is released from the bottomless pit along with all of the Demons who have been locked in chains heretofore (Jude 1:6). This Demonic Horde comes against mankind for 5 months, but can only harm and maim mankind for this time period. Then the Second Woe is, IMHO, an Angelic Army who kills a third (1/3) of all mankind (1.5 Billion people), but they are Angelic beings killing wicked men, thus they deliver PLAGUES !!

Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Then we skip to Rev. ch. 16, which I think was originally meant to follow Rev. ch. 9, and I think basically Rev. 15 and 16 was/is one chapter. This is the Third Woe, all Seven Vials are the Third Woe. Thus the Battle of Armageddon (Marriage Super in Rev. 19) happens here, the Nations that Gather at Armageddon are seen by God as Babylon (Satan'd Dark Kingdom/Whole World). 

Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem/Earthquake) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (SEEN AS BABYLON): and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So God sees these Nations that gather against him in Rev. 16:12-14, the Kings of the East (Iran/Iraq) the European Union (BEAST/10 Kings) and the Nations of the WHOLE WORLD.........14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Babylon = The Whole World that comes to battle against God !!

Rev. 20, 21 and 22 end the Book of Revelation as per the Chronological order. We have the Judgment Seat where the Martyrs of the 70th Week Tribulation period is judged, those seen in Seal #5, who then live and reign with Christ 1000 years. We then have the ever after, via the New Jerusalem. 

After Rev. ch. 16, which IMHO, should be Rev. ch. 10, the Chronological order should skip unto Rev. chapter 20, chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. Each chapter then tells a SPECIFIC EVENT/ACCOUNT about something that happened during the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, in a much fuller detail so to speak. Oddly, if Rev. 16 was Rev. 10, then the current Rev. ch. 10 (WHICH WOULD BE 11 LOL) might make more sense as per the TIME SHOULD BE NO MORE !!  (Just a theory at this point, but its interesting).

Rev. 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The Seventh Angel SOUNDS which brings forth the 3rd Woe, which is all Seven Vials combined. So it seems to suggest, kinda, that Chapter 10 could be an END OF ALL TIME AS WE KNOW IT type of chapter, thus the Age changes, Satan is no longer in charge, Babylon has Fallen. So Chapter 10 could fit in the Chronological order, if chapter 15 and 16 preceded it, as I think it should. 

As per the other chapters, they are set-a-sides or Parenthetical Citations so to speak. 

Rev. chapter 11 is the detailed account of the Two-witnesses. They die at the Second Woe, before the Beast dies, thus their 1260 days must start before the Beasts 1260 days start. Thus they show up BEFORE the Day of the (1260) Lord at the 1335, which is 1335 days from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Two-witnesses are told in so many words who to witness/preach unto, they are told to Measure the Temple and the Alter but not to Measure the outside court, this means Preach/Witness unto the Jews but not unto the Gentiles per se. Of course Gentiles might hear them, but their job is t turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6). Apillyon the Scarlet Colored Beast from the pot kills them at the 2nd Woe, and the are raised up after 3 1/2 days. But............. Remember Rev. 10 ? The Seventh Angel Sounded !! The Two-witnesses are dead, but their PRAYERS that brought forth the Plagues etc. etc. etc. are not finished, the Seventh Trumpet Sounds bringing forth the 3rd Woe !! It comes from the Two-witnesses prayers also, so the story is finished out in Rev. 11, even though the Two-witnesses have died, their PRAYERS are answered and a brief account of what happens is told unto us, this actually happens in Rev. ch. 16 however, not here, because the Seven Vials are the 3rd Woe. 

Rev. 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God

Rev. 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The LAST VERSE sounds a lot like Rev. chapter 10 right ? I think chapter Rev. 16 should come before Rev. 10, I know I am repeating that, but it fits here. We see here that the 7th Trumpet brings all of this to pass without giving the DETAILS as per the Seven Vials, the Seventh Trumpet Sounds and we are hearing about the END PRODUCT of what happened !! We are just supposed to know its the 3rd Woe, because it says in verse 14, the Third Woe COMETH QUICKLY. So every thing after that is what the 3rd Woe has wrought. We are told about the actual Seven Vials in Rev. ch. 16.

Rev. 12 is Israel Fleeing Judea and that happens at the First Seal, or 30 days before the First Seal at the 1290. 

Rev. 13 is the Anti-Christ Conquering to become the Beast, it happens at the First Seal also. 

Rev. 14 happens over a Seven Year Period, its the Rapture of the Church in verse 14, and later on the Harvest of the Wicked. 

Rev. 17 is the Harlot (All False Religion) being Destroyed by the Beast and his 10 Kings who understand that if the Beast is to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD then all Religions have to be wiped off the face of the earth, thus the Harlot is JUDGED !! This happens starting at the First Seal, and goes as long as it takes, I don't think it takes him long, he has this planed out ahead of time. 

Rev. 18 also starts out at the First Seal, it is Babylon (Whole World) being pelted with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues via Gods Wrath. This is why it references things that happen in many chapters, it covers many chapters. For instance, the "Come out of her my people" is referencing God calling Israel to FLEE Judea so they do not partake in her (Babylon...THE WORLDS) sins, and so they don't partake in her PLAGUES....Like I said, its about the Seal, Trumpet and Vial PLAGUES !! Thus the verse matches with the 144,000 (ALL Israel, not 144,000) who God protects in Rev. ch. 7, and with Rev. ch. 12 where the Woman (Israel) Flees unto the Wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev. 18 then mentions that Babylon has become the Habitation of Devils, and of course that is true, Satan has been kicked out of Heaven at about the Midway point, and Apollyon and his horde of Demons have bee released from the Bottomless Pit. And Babylon's COMMERCE is destroyed of Coursem by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Of course that is what happens when the trees and grasses burn up, the Seas turn to blood, the drinking waters are poisoned, the Sea Creatures die (Shrimp/fish/etc). And 1/4 of mankind is killed by they Beast (1.5 to 2 billion people) followed by another 1/3 of mankind (1.5 Billion people) getting killed via the 2nd Woe. That will put a dent in the COMMERCE !! So yes, her COMMERCE is hurt severely !!

Rev. 19 is the Rapture (Rev. 4:1) and the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church/Bride, and we see the Bride in White Robes in Rev. 4:4, we also see the Bride in Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-17. Finally we see the Marriage Super happens at Armageddon (Rev. 16:19) and then the Beast is cast into hell in Rev. 19:20, which is a Real Time Event, but all the rest of Rev. 19 happened from Rev. chapter 4 to Rev. ch. 16, when the Angel announced IT IS DONE !!

As you see, Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I agree, but I think verse 13 means the END of ones life, like Paul stated, we must run the FULL RACE to the end so to speak. I don't buy the once saved always saved stuff, so I think Jesus is saying we must endure the TRIALS & TRIBULATIONS until the End, then verse 14 speaks about the Gospel going unto the whole world, and THEN the end will come..........transition to the 1290 (AoD), which is 30 days before the 1260. Thus we are basically in the Middle of the Week via verse 15, thus the 70th week has already started, thus the Rapture has already passed. (I'll go through it at the bottom). 

The Greatest Troubles ever indeed start with the First Seal being opened, which happens 30 days after the AoD. Jesus calls up his bride for a full 7 Years, which is why I do not understand how you can have a Middle of the Week Rapture. Chapter 19 is no a REAL TIME EVENT, He returns in chapter 16 at the 7th Via which ends the 3rd Woe. Chapters 11,12,13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, not real time events. 

Agreed, from Matthew 24:1-6 is 70 AD, from verse 7-14 is Church Age Events. 

This where I think you really get discombobulated, don't take umbrage, I couldn't understand all of this for years and was just given it all in the last couple of years, and my calling is Prophecy, and I have been preaching over 30 years, sometimes I was like why Lord the dark clouds of secrecy, but of course Gods riming is perfect.

The Midway point is the First Seal, where the POWER of the holy peoples are SCATTERED, the White horse is the Anti-Christ who Conquers the Jews and the Mediterranean Sea Region. What is it that keeps you from getting this timing right brother ? I am really trying to understand here. 

The GREAT TRIBULATION in Rev. 7 is the 2000 year Church Age, not the 70th week. Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation, 1000's died via Rome, millions have been slaughtered from the time Christ died for Jesus' name. 2000 is GREATER than 7. The Great Tribulation as per what John was mentioning was the 2000 year Church Age, thus those shown in Rev. ch. 7, who are wearing White Robes, have already by that point married the Lamb, which means a PART of Rev. 19 has already happened by that time !! Rev. 19 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, its a set-a-side story about the Bride and Jesus, Rev. 14 is a set-a-side story about the Rapture and Armageddon, Rev. 17 happens during Rev. ch. 6, Rev. 18 happens from Rev. ch. 6 to Rev. ch. 16, it is the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments hitting Babylon (WHOLE WORLD).  Rev. 12 is about the Jews Fleeing Judea, it happens in Rev. ch. 6. Rev. 13 is the Beast coming to power it happens in Rev. ch. 6. 

Great can be used in different ways, GREATEST TROUBLES speak of a specific time. GREAT TRIBULATION can and does mean via John a PERIOD OF TIME that is the LARGER of two periods of time. As in 2000 is GREATER than 7. 

True on the Tribulation Jesus spoke of. The Events start in chapter 13 brother. Pardon the frankness, but I now see what throws you off, you do no understand that Rev. 13 is a Parenthetical Citation, you are trying to fit it into the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation, and that is not how it is written brother. The First Seal is the Anti-Christ BECOMING the Beast, and Rev. 13 is THE BEAST arising from the Sea, Daniel 11:40-45 is the exact same thing brother, they are ALL THREE the same events.   Chapter 14 is another set-a-side chapter, its about the Harvest of the Righteous in Christ in verse 14 and the Wicked of Satan that he put in the Wine-press of his Wrath, this happens in Rev 16:19. Its the SAME THING. The Middle of the Week must start with the First Seal as does Gods Wrath.

Like I stated, you see Rev. 12 as a REAL TIME EVENT, thus everything as your PER TIMING is thrown off kilter. 

When the Stars (angels are called stars) are cast down in Rev. ch. 6, I see that as Satan being cast down unto earth. 

The False Prophet places the Image (AoD) in the Temple at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260 (Middle of the week). 

Nothing is shortened, Jesus is speaking as per to WHY it was 7 YEARS to begin with. I don't get why anyone thinks God had to change His plans as per the timing, God knows all. Hes speaking about why its only SEVEN YEARS to begin with. 

We agree here.......Take no offense brother, this is not stuff God was revealing even 5 years ago. I will try to go over everything below as per the order of things. It can be confusing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Revelation Time Line

The Church Age = Rev. chapters 1-3, it is only Jesus praising and rebuking Seven TYPES of Churches via Asia Minor.

The Rapture of the Church 

Rev. 4:1 is in all reality relative to John since he will be Raptured at the very time all the rest of us will be Raptured, just before the 70th week. Remember, there is 3.5 years of PEACE and we know this via Dan. 9:27 and Dan. 8:25, even via Rev. ch. 6 where the Red Horse takes away the PEACE from earth. So John being Raptured in ch. 4 is in essence a TYPE of the Church being Raptured just before the 70th week begins, then we see the Church Elders in Heaven with White Raiment (Robes) on in Rev. 4:4 and we see the Church saying Christ has REDEEMED US in Rev. 5:9 . Lets compare all of the VERSES:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Thus those scriptures ABOVE must happen after the scriptures BELOW: In Rev. 4:4 we see the White Robes on, in Rev. 5:9 we see they are REDEEMED. They Marriage happens in Rev. 19:7-8. 

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So wrapping these two chapters up, Jesus is about to open the First Seal, he is found Worthy to open the Sealed Scroll. The Anti-Christ comes forth in the Middle of the Week or at the 1260 to Conquer and thus he becomes the Beast. Thus the First Seal is the Middle of the Week. Thus Rev. 6:1 is the 1260, everything after the First Seal is a part of the last half of the 70th Week. Rev. 19, as I have proven, has already begun before the First Seal is broken, the Bride has her White Robes on in Rev. ch. 4 and 5. The Marriage Supper in Rev. 19 is the battle of Armageddon in Rev. 16. 

The Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments

Revelation chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15 and 16 (I think 15 and 16 should be one chapter) are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, with chapter 7 showing the Raptured Church in Heaven at the Midway point and also showing the Jews (144,000) Fleeing Judea and being protected by God in Petra before God starts burning the tress, hurting the earth, and hurting the seas, or in essence, bringing forth the Supernatural Plagues against mankind spoken about via the Seal, Trumpets and Vials of Gods Wrath. Gods Wrath starts via allowing the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering, thus he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people, of course the Church has been Raptured, and there are only s many Jews, so who is he killing ? The Harlot of Course or all those who worship Gods already in place who will not worship him, think Islam, think Muslims !! He will wipe out the Harlot (All False Religions) at this point, see Rev. 17:16, the 10 Kings hate the Harlot and kill her off. He will kill the 2/3 Jews who do not repent and chase the 1/3 of the Jews who do repent into the Wilderness or Petra, that is what happens via the 144,000 in Rev. ch. 7. He will kill the REMNANT CHURCH who gave their lives unto Christ after the Rapture. But most will be Muslims, they will have to be, who refuse to worship the Beast and/or take the Mark of the Beast, the Harlot is judged, Islam and all False Religions will be wiped out (Rev. 17) this man desires to be worshiped as the only god. Rev. ch. 18 is Babylon (Whole World) being hit with all of these Judgments.

So the  fourth (1/4) of all mankind that are killed happens in Rev. ch. 6, that is the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer and Conquering. He thus takes Peace from the earth (Seal #2 or Red horse), which is how he came to power, via a FAKE PEACE, of course. He conquers Israel and THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Region Nations), then he eventually Conquers the whole world in some shape, form or fashion. So these events described above are describing Rev. ch. 13, when the Beast Arises out of the [Mediterranean] Sea (Midway point). They also describe Rev. 12, when Israel Flees Judea at the Midway point (1260/1290) and are protected for 1260 days. Rev. 12 and 13 are set-a-side chapters, not real time events. Think Parenthetical Citations. 

Turning to the Trumpet judgments in Rev. ch.8 (Israel are already protected) we see the burning trees, the earth being hurt and the seas being hurt. Which lead me to think the First Four Seals all happen almost at once, back, to back, to back so to speak and the effect of each Seal takes time, the deaths come over time, the Religions are wiped out over time, not a long drawn out time period, but it will take some time. Then we see the Evidence of the Beasts Murderous ways via the 5th Seal, and the 6th Seal brings fort the Supernatural Judgments, thus these people who have been in the Wrath of God from the First Seal on, only now understand they are in the Wrath of the Lamb/God.  

The Three Woes start in Rev. 9:1 with the First Woe, Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. ch. 17 is released from the bottomless pit along with all of the Demons who have been locked in chains heretofore (Jude 1:6). This Demonic Horde comes against mankind for 5 months, but can only harm and maim mankind for this time period. Then the Second Woe is, IMHO, an Angelic Army who kills a third (1/3) of all mankind (1.5 Billion people), but they are Angelic beings killing wicked men, thus they deliver PLAGUES !!

Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Then we skip to Rev. ch. 16, which I think was originally meant to follow Rev. ch. 9, and I think basically Rev. 15 and 16 was/is one chapter. This is the Third Woe, all Seven Vials are the Third Woe. Thus the Battle of Armageddon (Marriage Super in Rev. 19) happens here, the Nations that Gather at Armageddon are seen by God as Babylon (Satan'd Dark Kingdom/Whole World). 

Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem/Earthquake) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (SEEN AS BABYLON): and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So God sees these Nations that gather against him in Rev. 16:12-14, the Kings of the East (Iran/Iraq) the European Union (BEAST/10 Kings) and the Nations of the WHOLE WORLD.........14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Babylon = The Whole World that comes to battle against God !!

Rev. 20, 21 and 22 end the Book of Revelation as per the Chronological order. We have the Judgment Seat where the Martyrs of the 70th Week Tribulation period is judged, those seen in Seal #5, who then live and reign with Christ 1000 years. We then have the ever after, via the New Jerusalem. 

After Rev. ch. 16, which IMHO, should be Rev. ch. 10, the Chronological order should skip unto Rev. chapter 20, chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. Each chapter then tells a SPECIFIC EVENT/ACCOUNT about something that happened during the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, in a much fuller detail so to speak. Oddly, if Rev. 16 was Rev. 10, then the current Rev. ch. 10 (WHICH WOULD BE 11 LOL) might make more sense as per the TIME SHOULD BE NO MORE !!  (Just a theory at this point, but its interesting).

Rev. 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The Seventh Angel SOUNDS which brings forth the 3rd Woe, which is all Seven Vials combined. So it seems to suggest, kinda, that Chapter 10 could be an END OF ALL TIME AS WE KNOW IT type of chapter, thus the Age changes, Satan is no longer in charge, Babylon has Fallen. So Chapter 10 could fit in the Chronological order, if chapter 15 and 16 preceded it, as I think it should. 

As per the other chapters, they are set-a-sides or Parenthetical Citations so to speak. 

Rev. chapter 11 is the detailed account of the Two-witnesses. They die at the Second Woe, before the Beast dies, thus their 1260 days must start before the Beasts 1260 days start. Thus they show up BEFORE the Day of the (1260) Lord at the 1335, which is 1335 days from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Two-witnesses are told in so many words who to witness/preach unto, they are told to Measure the Temple and the Alter but not to Measure the outside court, this means Preach/Witness unto the Jews but not unto the Gentiles per se. Of course Gentiles might hear them, but their job is t turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6). Apillyon the Scarlet Colored Beast from the pot kills them at the 2nd Woe, and the are raised up after 3 1/2 days. But............. Remember Rev. 10 ? The Seventh Angel Sounded !! The Two-witnesses are dead, but their PRAYERS that brought forth the Plagues etc. etc. etc. are not finished, the Seventh Trumpet Sounds bringing forth the 3rd Woe !! It comes from the Two-witnesses prayers also, so the story is finished out in Rev. 11, even though the Two-witnesses have died, their PRAYERS are answered and a brief account of what happens is told unto us, this actually happens in Rev. ch. 16 however, not here, because the Seven Vials are the 3rd Woe. 

Rev. 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God

Rev. 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The LAST VERSE sounds a lot like Rev. chapter 10 right ? I think chapter Rev. 16 should come before Rev. 10, I know I am repeating that, but it fits here. We see here that the 7th Trumpet brings all of this to pass without giving the DETAILS as per the Seven Vials, the Seventh Trumpet Sounds and we are hearing about the END PRODUCT of what happened !! We are just supposed to know its the 3rd Woe, because it says in verse 14, the Third Woe COMETH QUICKLY. So every thing after that is what the 3rd Woe has wrought. We are told about the actual Seven Vials in Rev. ch. 16.

Rev. 12 is Israel Fleeing Judea and that happens at the First Seal, or 30 days before the First Seal at the 1290. 

Rev. 13 is the Anti-Christ Conquering to become the Beast, it happens at the First Seal also. 

Rev. 14 happens over a Seven Year Period, its the Rapture of the Church in verse 14, and later on the Harvest of the Wicked. 

Rev. 17 is the Harlot (All False Religion) being Destroyed by the Beast and his 10 Kings who understand that if the Beast is to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD then all Religions have to be wiped off the face of the earth, thus the Harlot is JUDGED !! This happens starting at the First Seal, and goes as long as it takes, I don't think it takes him long, he has this planed out ahead of time. 

Rev. 18 also starts out at the First Seal, it is Babylon (Whole World) being pelted with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues via Gods Wrath. This is why it references things that happen in many chapters, it covers many chapters. For instance, the "Come out of her my people" is referencing God calling Israel to FLEE Judea so they do not partake in her (Babylon...THE WORLDS) sins, and so they don't partake in her PLAGUES....Like I said, its about the Seal, Trumpet and Vial PLAGUES !! Thus the verse matches with the 144,000 (ALL Israel, not 144,000) who God protects in Rev. ch. 7, and with Rev. ch. 12 where the Woman (Israel) Flees unto the Wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev. 18 then mentions that Babylon has become the Habitation of Devils, and of course that is true, Satan has been kicked out of Heaven at about the Midway point, and Apollyon and his horde of Demons have bee released from the Bottomless Pit. And Babylon's COMMERCE is destroyed of Coursem by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Of course that is what happens when the trees and grasses burn up, the Seas turn to blood, the drinking waters are poisoned, the Sea Creatures die (Shrimp/fish/etc). And 1/4 of mankind is killed by they Beast (1.5 to 2 billion people) followed by another 1/3 of mankind (1.5 Billion people) getting killed via the 2nd Woe. That will put a dent in the COMMERCE !! So yes, her COMMERCE is hurt severely !!

Rev. 19 is the Rapture (Rev. 4:1) and the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church/Bride, and we see the Bride in White Robes in Rev. 4:4, we also see the Bride in Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-17. Finally we see the Marriage Super happens at Armageddon (Rev. 16:19) and then the Beast is cast into hell in Rev. 19:20, which is a Real Time Event, but all the rest of Rev. 19 happened from Rev. chapter 4 to Rev. ch. 16, when the Angel announced IT IS DONE !!

As you see, Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations.

Your theories of John's timing is so far off from what is truly written, I am not even going to bother answering.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Your theories of John's timing is so far off from what is truly written, I am not even going to bother answering.

 No use answering when you can't understand it brother. What I find about you, and many others is you are too entrenched in your own ideas to learn truths, that was the Pharisees problem.  You also don't seem to get the fact that many of the chapters are a LOOK BACK, after the story has been told, and its the truth, and that messes all of your "THEORIES " up. 

Anyone, with a little bit of thinking, and a little humility, should be able to see these facts. Its not that complicated when explained. I find people dodge because they can't deny my facts and it upsets their apple cart so to speak. 

You thinking the 70th Week starts after the Anti-Christ comes forth is really baffling since you believe in a pre 70th week rapture. 

 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 No use answering when you can't understand it brother. What I find about you, and many others is you are too entrenched in your own ideas to learn truths, that was the Pharisees problem.  You also don't seem to get the fact that many of the chapters are a LOOK BACK, after the story has been told, and its the truth, and that messes all of your "THEORIES " up. 

Anyone, with a little bit of thinking, and a little humility, should be able to see these facts. Its not that complicated when explained. I find people dodge because they can't deny my facts and it upsets their apple cart so to speak. 

You thinking the 70th Week starts after the Anti-Christ comes forth is really baffling since you believe in a pre 70th week rapture. 

 

You go ahead and believe you alone know the truth. One day you will find things will turn out just as I have written them, in that order, because I follow what John has written. 

I will write it again since you missed it.

The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. This will reveal him to the world as the Antichrist Beast of chapter 13.  And in Revelation, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven the moment he enters the must holy place. 

The 70th week begins at the 7th seal, 3 1/2 years before he is revealed.

Got it this time? 

By the way, your "facts" are easy to prove wrong, simply because they are wrong. But you have so many, it is just not worth the time it would take. And you would not believe it anyway.

[iamlamad]

On 6/5/2018 at 6:06 PM, Brother Duke said:

Here is a study I have been working on.

 

Woe, Woe, woe.

Revelation uses woes as markers or time stamps. The trumpets, seals and bowls are grouped within the 3 woes. The word Alas is translated from the same word in the Greek that is Woe. I have also noticed the great earthquake is always around the resurrection. There was a great earthquake when Christ was resurrected and there was an earthquake when the two witness were brought back to life.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



1st woe devil is cast out and tribulation starts.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.



2nd woe resurrection/rapture. Babylon is judged.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 

Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held



3rd woe God's wrath

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 6::17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why don't we just simply follow the text instead of using human reasoning? It is much simpler!

 

Revelation 8:13

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

The woes are, therefore, the last three trumpet judgments.  the third woe, at the 7th trumpet is probably more specifically that it is the time Satan is cast down to earth. He will become woe three.

[Willie T]

18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why don't we just simply follow the text instead of using human reasoning? It is much simpler!

You mean like the simple text that says that letter was written to seven, then existing churches in Old Turkey in the 1st Century about things "that were to happen shortly?"