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Brother Duke

Revelation and the Study of Woe

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Really the 70th Week has not even started.  The 70th Week is a One Seven. Not a split and cut up Week.  The middle or mid point of a yardstick is at 18 inches. One must have both ends to achieve 18 inches, the same with the 70th Week.  The Seven years is continuous, with no breaks.  Scripture designates 7 - Sevens, 62 - Sevens, and a 1 - Seven.  This last Seven is a whole One Seven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 144,000 is only a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL.

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

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19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 70th Week has nothing to do with the Church nor are we on earth during the 70th Week. 

And there is the core and crux of our various disagreements on eschatology.  All arguments about the timings, meanings, and identifications of people in Daniel's 70th week all hinge on this, don't they?  The reason I rejected the premise stated above is that I see Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 as referring to the same event.  Once I rejected the pretribulation rapture of the church, many other things changed as well.  I do see a definite difference between national Israel and the church.  There is also a difference between fleshly Israel (those born Jews) and believing Jews of all ages or dispensations.  It is the second group into which we have been grafted and thereby inherit the kingdom. I could be wrong, but I have found plenty of scripture to support my position. (This in no way makes me think that those who disagree are lost or heretics or anything else.)

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Romans 9:6-7 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ephesians 2:11-13 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 

Ephesians 3:2-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

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4 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I believe the he in Daniel 9:27 is Christ.  Christ confirmed the new covenant in the 70th week.  In the middle of the week or 3.5 years into his ministry he was killed/cutoff and sacrifices were no longer needed. 

This seems to be a modified Historicist position. Futurists hold to the belief that Daniels 70th week is future in its entirety.  I am  not calling you a Historicist, but you may have read behind some Historicists in the past.   Check out this link -http://historicist.info/articles2/historicistvsfuturist.htm

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14 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I believe the woman in rev 12 is the church where the church is symbolically a women.

I believe that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, not the church.  The church did not give birth to Christ, Israel as pertaining to the flesh did. That is the main reason for my objection. I agree with a lot of other things you said, so this is not a blanket condemnation of your positions. 

Revelation 12:1-7 ¶ …  a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 … and behold a great red dragon, … 4 … and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 

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1 hour ago, JoeChan82 said:

This seems to be a modified Historicist position. Futurists hold to the belief that Daniels 70th week is future in its entirety.  I am  not calling you a Historicist, but you may have read behind some Historicists in the past.   Check out this link -http://historicist.info/articles2/historicistvsfuturist.htm

After reading the link I think I am in between.  ;)  I believe much prophecy was fulfilled in the past but there is still a lot of unfulfilled prophecy still.

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2 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

I am usually very literal in my interpretation of scripture, but I have often wondered about the 144,000. I cannot trace my own ancestors past a few hundred years. After the 2,000 years of being dispersed among the nations, can the Jews still trace themselves to a specific tribe especially in those numbers.  You may be on to something.

The Jews may be the only tribe that can still trace themselves.  There are still some from the tribe of Benjamin who have been absorbed into Judah also and the Levites that were part of Judah or the Southern Kingdom.

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17 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Revelation Man,

 

Does this mean you are not pre-trib if they are raptured?  I am pre-wrath myself.

 

I am Pre-tribulation. Why would the Tribulation Saints have anything to d with the Rapture when they are raised at the Second Coming? 

17 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I see the 144,000 differently then most.  I think they are just a remnant of Israel and the Bride of Christ, the most faithful.  I think the greater Israel is represented with the Multitude of Saints.  

I think that the Woman of Rev 12, The 144k and the 2 witnesses are all the same group.  I know many think the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah but God said that Israel is his witnesses.  The 2 witnesses are also represented by the 2 olive trees like Israel is represented as an olive tree.

How does one witness that is Israel and one olive tree become two?   Israel was split up into two kingdoms or two witnesses.  The Southern Kingdom/Judah and the Northern Kingdom/Joseph.  I believe the woman in rev 12 is the church where the church is symbolically a women.  Also her offspring/the multitude are persecuted while the women just like the 2 witnesses are protected for 3.5 years.  Lastly the 144k are also sealed.  I believe that is because they are all the same group.

 

Anyway time will tell. I know we all see things in a different light.

 

The Bride of Christ marries Jesus in Heaven (Church), the Jews remain on earth (Wheat) along with the Tares. The Two-witnesses are Elijah and probably Moses since they were transfigured with Jesus on the Mount, that makes sense. 

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17 hours ago, Diaste said:

In Christianity, supersessionism(replacement theology) is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God.

  1.  Charry ET. Supersessionism. in Green JB, Lapsley J, Miles R, Verhey A (editors). Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics. Baker Academic, 2011. ISBN 9780801034060
  2.  Carroll, James. Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001. Print. p. 58
  3. Johnson LT. Christians and Jews: Starting Over - Why the Real Dialogue Has Just Begun. Commonweal magazine. January 31, 2003. [1]

It's not really the point but I just thought I should clear this up.

So...

1 Peter 4.

"17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us,"

This really puts the fate of pretrib in doubt of core validity. To "wrath" we are not appointed, however judgement begins with us. Peter is identifying with the body of Christ here. 'Us'. The church which Peter helped grow tells us the time has come when judgment 'must begin' in God's own house. In God's house. The true home of the Lord, the body of believers both individual and corporate. And this is not a judgment already ongoing, as in 'has begin' or 'is now'; 'must begin' is future tense. Peter tells us the day is coming when the church will be judged. And this is in context of salvation. "18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved,", says the apostle. The fragment could read, "...forasmuch as the innocent are saved with difficulty...". It's also in the context of the fiery trial that Peter speaks to in verse 12 in that this fiery trial is not the judgment that 'must begin' at the house of God. 

The beast is coming for the church as the purifying fire to cleanse the sanctuary.

 

 

You were placing the Church in Israels place, you can call it what you will brother, I know something when I see it. You are still confusing the Church and Israel and their paths. 

As per the 1 Peter 4:17 verse, this is why we can't pick verses out and not place them in their perfect context. So you think that verses shows end time judgment? I don't see it that way.....read the chapter. It is about men living at Paul's time judging themselves and living via/in Christs righteousness.  That verse, that chapter nor that context is about end time judgment. 

Its an easy read brother, its not even that complex to see that its speaking about men in THAT TIME PERIOD. 

The Church will be in Heaven when the Beast arises. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

Edited by Revelation Man

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32 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You were placing the Church on Israels place, you can call it what you will brother, I know something when I see it. You are still confusing the Church and Israel and their paths. 

As per the 1 Peter 4:17 verse, this is why we can't pick verses out and not place them in their perfect context. So you think that verses shows end time judgment? I don't see it that way.....read the chapter. It is about men living at Paul's time judging themselves and living via/in Christs righteousness.  That verse, that chapter nor that context is about end time judgment. 

Its an easy read brother, its not even that complex to see its speaking about men in THAT TIM PERIOD. 

The Church will be in Heaven when the Beast arises. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church !! 

Won't matter 'how you see it'. It will happen no matter what we personally believe. Best to be sanctified in the Lord's grace and truth and be ready before the time comes.

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      https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/
      http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdjGyMTAds
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      Inevitability of sin,
      1 Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of (belongs to) the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the (sin) works of the devil.
      Matt 1:21 …you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sin.
      Rm 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you… NKJV
      God in control,
      Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done (because it is being hindered by the kingdom of darkness), on earth as it is in heaven.
      Can’t lose my salvation,
      Heb 6:4 …bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened, those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come, and who then turn away from God. NLT
      As Christians we do not have to be deceived, provided we grow and walk in God’s light,
      God has made it possible for every Christian to see through the deceptions of Satan and continue to walk in the light and not be snared by the subtle works of darkness. God’s two principal requirements to do this are: (1) A heart or spirit that remains tender toward God and receives daily the engrafting of more of God’s light giving words, and (2) A willingness to submit to and do God’s will and thereby remain under the leading and control of the Holy Spirit. Only such Christians as continue to hear and obey God’s voice, God speaking through His word and by His Spirit, and don’t listen to Satan’s thoughts or voice.
      John 10:4-5 And when He (The Chief Shepherd) brings out His own sheep...the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger (Satan) but will flee from him for they do not know the voice (thoughts) of strangers...
      1 John 2:26-27 These things I have written to you (God’s word) concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing (Holy Spirit) which you have received from Him abides in you and…teaches you all things, and is true, and is not a lie…
      Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God (your spirit clothed with the protective truth of God’s words), that you may be able to stand against the wiles (deceits) of the devil.
      In particular Satan imparts thoughts that contradict the true teaching that every believer in Christ needs to be baptized with and remain full of and under the control of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is the only One who can cause the word of God to become truth and light in the hearts of believers and so expose all of Satan’s works of darkness.
      Acts 19:2 Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?
      Matt 3:11 …He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit…
      Eph 5:18 …be filled (continually) with Spirit…
      Rm 8:14 …as many as are led (under the control of) by the Spirit, these are the children of God.
      Satan does not want to be known, but God wants to be known, He is the great revealer,
      1 Cor 2:9-14 ….No (natural) mind has conceived the things which God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit…that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God…But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God…nor can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned (revealed by God’s Spirit to a person’s re-born spirit).
      Matt 11:25 …Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes” (to those spiritually born again and willing to grow up in spirit).
      Col 1:26-27 The mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known…this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
      Everywhere in scripture our loving and redeeming Father makes indisputably clear His eagerness to reveal Himself to the hearts or spirits, but not to the intellects, of anyone who will allow Him to do so. This of course is the absolute worst thing from Satan’s standpoint and he will do everything possible to conceal this truth. He wants to stop people becoming Christians, and then if they do, to stop them becoming true disciples of Christ. Since they, with Christ actively living in them, will make others of his captives into Christ’s disciples too. Although Jesus Christ defeated Satan at Calvary he still controls the world and most of the Church because of their ignorance of his devices. And what is God doing? He is regaining control one soul at a time, as each soul turns at His correction so that He can make Himself known to their hearts by the Holy Spirit and through His word.
      2 Tim 2:24-26 …the servant of the Lord must not strive (quarrel); but be gentle to all men (people), able to teach, patient, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if perhaps God may grant them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. NKJV
      Prov 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out My Spirit on you; I will make My words known to you (to make you holy as He is holy and to expose the beguiling thoughts of Satan).
      Jn 16:33 Jesus, These things I have spoken unto you (the truths in this message!)…In the world you shall have tribulation (trouble, because of the world, our own flesh, and the Devil), but be of good cheer; I have overcome (All your enemies!)… NKJV
      Thank you Father for revealing the truth and for making a way for us to be more than conquerors, and to always triumph “in Christ”, Amen!
    • By Sharky and George
      I think that as Christian's, we too can be "in the spirit" like John in the book of Revelation.
      It is when you have a lot of faith and in this time a lot of God's revelations (things that will happen) come to us.
      The book of Revelation has this title because of this - it was revealed to John how things will be.
       
       
       
      A good way to get a lot of faith is to read your bible for a long period of time maybe an hour on an occasion - you cannot do this all the time but you should daily read your bible for shorter periods. Get an enjoyable version that is fun to encourage you to do this (I like the Message and/or the ESV - English Standard Version):
       
       
       
      Faith is our link to God so having a link in faith enables Him to reveal things to us through what is like a telephone line that has been setup.
      Read your favourite bible version and pray to God like you are having a conversation with Him whilst you are having a coffee - who knows, you might end up having a chat, coming closer to someone who loves you more than you could ever know and therefore making Him very happy.
      Make sure you use wisdom with your faith though so you can discern away mis-leading spirits that may effect the conversation. This is noise and interference on the telephone line.
       
       
       
      Shalom  
    • By ShinyGospelShoes
      Daniel & Revelation - Psalms 77:13
      Psalms 77:13  Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
      7 Branch Candlestick - Lampstand
      (I tried to insert as a picture, but do not know how, if anyone could help with that, much appreciated, 'a picture is worth a thousand words' as the proverb goes)
       
      The first 'Book' Of Daniel
      Daniel 4:1-37; Daniel 3:1-30; Daniel 2:1-49; Daniel 1:1-21; Daniel 7:1-28; Daniel 6:1-28; Daniel 5:1-31
      In their parallel order as in the 7 branches of the candlestick (and will be demonstrated by the very text itself):
      Daniel 4:1-37 -- King, Everlasting Gospel, Saved
      Daniel 3:1-30 -- Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment
      Daniel 2:1-49 -- Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven
      Daniel 1:1-21 -- Captivity To Release
      Daniel 7:1-28 -- Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven
      Daniel 6:1-28 -- Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment
      Daniel 5:1-31-- King, Everlasting Gospel, Lost
       
      The second 'Book' of Daniel
      Daniel 8:1 - 12:13
      (This portion of Daniel, deals with the Sanctuary services itself, and is steeped in Sanctuary langauge, to be demonstrated by the text itself a little later.)
       
      The Revelation Of Jesus Christ
      Rev. 1:1-5:14; Rev. 6:1-8:1; Rev. 8:2-11:19; Rev. 12:1-14:20; Rev. 15:1-19:21; Rev. 20:1-15; Rev. 21:1-22:21
      In their parallel order as in the 7 branches of the candlestick (and will be demonstrated by the very text itself):
      Revelation 1:1 - 5:14 -- The 7 Churches
      Revelation 6:1 - 8:1 -- The 7 Seals
      Revelation 8:2 - 11:19 -- The 7 Trumpets
      Revelation 12:1 - 14:20 -- The Great War
      Revelation 15:1 - 19:21 -- The 7 Last Plagues
      Revelation 20:1-15 -- The 1,000 Years
      Revelation 21:1 - 22:21 -- The New Jerusalem
       
      The Feasts of the LORD
      Leviticus 23:4-44
      1 - 1 - 1 - 3 - 7 - 7 - 7
      The Passover (1st Month (Abib), 14th day, at even) - Leviticus 23:4-5
      Unleavened Bread (1st Month (Abib), 15th day unto 21st day (7 days), a yearly feastal sabbath) - Leviticus 23:6-8
      Firstfruits/Wavesheaf (1st Month (Abib), 16th day, on the morrow after the sabbath) - Leviticus 23:9-14
      Pentecost/Feast of Weeks (3rd Month (Sivan), 50 days (7 complete Sabbath's (7*7=49) and unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath (49+1=50)) - Leviticus 23:15-22
      Trumpets (7th Month (Ethanim), 1st day) - Leviticus 23:23-25
      Atonement (7th Month (Ethanim), 10th day, yearly festal sabbath, in the 9th day, even unto even) - Leviticus 23:26-32
      Booths/Tabernacles/Ingathering (7th Month (Ethanim), 15th day unto 21st day (7 days), and an 8th day (the 1st and 8th being a yearly festal sabbath)) - Leviticus 23:33-44
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