Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[WordSword]

This OP is for attempting a combined participation from those who are desiring to know more about the permanency of faith and salvation. I am presenting a couple passages to attempt to initiate interest in others who might desire to list whatever passages they can find relating to this issue that we can analyze together. The reason for my interest in dealing more with this issue is due to the fact that I believe it is the most significant Bible doctrine related to spiritual growth in the “image of Christ.”

2Pet 2:20
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ . . .” They can obtain mental peace (escape) merely through knowing (but not understanding) Christ’s Gospel and acting in outward motions of false professions and works, but if they have not truly desired to be in His Gospel it will eventually manifest itself when “they are again entangled in them and overcome.”

2Pe 2:21
“For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This describes only “knowing the way,” but instead of following it they “turn from it,” and continue as they were.

This parallels Heb 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth . . .” (Heb 10:26). Both of these passages are a description of one merely receiving the knowledge of the truth but not receiving the “truth.” In other words, choosing to continue as they were, even after becoming aware of “the truth,” but not choosing to receive and follow it.




A Couple Commentator Examples:

Albert Barnes (1798–1870):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world” - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesses Christ” - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

“For it had been better for them …” It would have been better for them, for:

(1) Then they would not have dishonored the cause of religion as they have now done.

(2) They would not have sunk so deep in profligacy as they now have.

(3) They would not have incurred so aggravated a condemnation in the world of woe. If people are resolved on being wicked, they had better never pretend to be good. If they are to be cast off at last, it had better not be as apostates from the cause of virtue and religion.
2 Peter 2 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible


John Gill (1697–1771):
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world....” The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said {q}, "he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled amle ypwnjb, "with the pollutions of the world," what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:" these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

“Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

“For it had been better for them....” Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:

"Not to have known the way of righteousness"; the same with "the way of truth," 2 Peter 2:2, and "the right way," 2 Peter 2:15, the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

"Than after they have known [it];" owned, embraced, and professed it:

"To turn:" the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally.

"From the holy commandment delivered unto them;" by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see 2 Peter 3:2; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, Jude 1:3, and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see Romans 2:12.
2 Peter 2 - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible - Bible Commentary

[Not me]

@WordSword

In my heart the strongest evidence, or proof, (that I am aware of at the moment at least), in favor of OSAS is the issue of the “birth”. 

Seeing how when a “birth” happens, it can never be undone. Once that life has been formed  that life forever is made up of the products of that union. Many things both good and bad can happen to that life. But the “facts” of which union it was “birthed” from, can never be changed. It seems to me that same would hold true to the “New Birth” once that union has been formed and the New Birth has happened it can never be undone. And since it is the Divine Nature that has been brought to birth in a individual. That individual would be brought forth by a life that can never die. Now how much growth, that “birth or life” had,  or became in possession of, is a matter of another thread. But once that “birth” has happened in a person,  it can never be undone. (my thoughts on the subject, anyways)

much love in Christ, Not me

Edited June 8, 2018 by Not me

[enoob57]

Jonah 3:10 (KJV)

[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

25 minutes ago, Butero said:

Yes.  He did that with Judas Iscariot.  

 

Judas is no different from any other man.....if he is in Hell, and of course he is, it is because of unbelief....call him a disciple, call him a “Believer”, but he never was.The sins of Peter who denied Jesus three times were put on the cross right up there with the sins of Judas.Peter cashed in. Judas did not. Today we cash in by believing Paul’s Gospel.....being alert to the fact that we can’t add to it with works or last second lucky relentance we will see poor old Judas face-to- face. Faith plus nothing.o'

 

 

[enoob57]

11 minutes ago, Butero said:

It seems you have a catch phrase doctrine.  Did someone tell you to memorize that one line, "faith plus nothing," and repeat it over and over and over again until you believed it?  Were you placed under hypnosis and told to repeat that line over and over and over?  That seems to be the entire basis of everything you believe, and the phrase is no place in the Bible.  

Heb 11:7

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV

I'd say this pretty much sums up the faith plus nothing reality of Scripture...

[enoob57]

32 minutes ago, Butero said:

Not when you consider that James says faith without works is dead, and he admits he sees apparent contradictions between what James taught and what Paul taught.  That scripture doesn't say "faith plus nothing."  It just says we need faith to please God.  Where is the "plus nothing" part of that text?  

James is not speaking of requirement for (then salvation would have been by law)... He is speaking of possession of new life and works are manifested by fact of regenerated heart... subtly trying to lead people to a salvation by works is condemned by Scripture
Galatians 2:21 (KJV)
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
even after the fact of faith alone in Christ alone we do not look to our works as justification to be saved for it is written
Titus 3:5 (KJV)

[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

You seem to think by putting requirements of works necessary for keeping salvation after salvation is different... it is not 
Matthew 19:29 (KJV)
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[30] But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

The point being made by Jesus is this -these did not consider what they were sacrificing as anything

Philippians 3:8 (KJV)
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
It was the gift of Life given them in Person to The Holy Spirit was the total of their motivation toward loving and glorifying Jesus... there is nothing in the created substance that can be manipulated or sacrificed to gain Life in God for it is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone... and nothing of this created substance continues with God

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 

but that which He has regenerated in this straight and narrow path through His Son period... to that we cannot know but believe and work toward a New heaven and earth where only righteousness exists...

Edited June 9, 2018 by enoob57

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, Butero said:

It depends on who "them" are.  In the case of Judas Iscariot, his plan was, call him to be a disciple, have him betray the Lord for 30 pieces of silver, hang himself, and be cast into hell.  

No, that was not God's "plan."

[WordSword]

12 hours ago, Butero said:

You can't turn from something you never had.  The passage in Hebrews states these people had once been sanctified, so they were saved.  Even the commentary George presented says they appeared to be saved people that were being warned about the dangers of apostasy.  Yes, a real Christian can become apostate, die and go to hell.   

Hi Butero, and thanks for your reply! There is an interesting commentator (Albert Barnes) that points out that Heb 6:4-6 is referring those born again, but verse 6 is just a supposition--"If they fall away," e.g. if they could fall away--they could not be "renewed." To me it's an insinuation of something impossible, i.e. if the sun cease to exist all would be destroyed. The other supposition relates to the supposition that the Son of God could be re-crucified, which is an impossibility.

Blessings!

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Butero said:

Just because you make a claim about what James is meaning doesn't make it so.  He is making it clear that faith that doesn't produce works is dead faith.  It is worthless.  

Ye see then, how that by works, A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only.  James 2:24

That is faith plus works, not faith plus nothing.  

James 2 is not about how a person  is saved.  Nor, is he talking about justification before God.   The context is about our works justifying us in terms of our profession  of faith.  What you do reveals if what you claim is really true.   If a person is saved, it will borne out in their character.   Their works will "justify" in the sense of "affirm" what the say.   

Faith and works do go together in terms of how a Christian lives out their sanctification.  But faith alone is what makes us right before God.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Butero said:

It is all spelled out in the Bible before it happens.  Looks like a plan to me.  

It doesn't say that God created and planned out the life of Judas so that he would betray Jesus.