Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[frienduff thaylorde]

6 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I see,  if a person disagrees with you, then the matter 'has got to end'. Why not just answer my post you responded to instead of making it all about you?

I agreed with the post .    That is why I said ,  what I did .   So many of us assume things about the other .  and it looks like everyone has done that .

Everyone includes myself as well. BUT WE ALL DO it and some much worse than others .

So how bout we just start over .   And when I bring exhortations just be ENCOURAGED .   IF they true , if not EXPOSE the Exhortation as a lie .

I mean all I did at first was say KEEP JESUS sayings , Keep the apostels pattern who kept JESUS sayings .  and I was attacked as though I preached WORKS .

That is when the divisions began .   IF a man comes exhorting truth. LET THEM and don't assume they mean anything by it , other than what they are saying .

WHEN I said HOW do we KNOW we LOVE JESUS ,   WE KEEP HIS SAYINGS ,  I was bombared for even saying that .  

let people just exhort .   IF I come saying hey if you don't DO six hail marys ,  or the only way into heaven is by doing good works. THEN CORRECT ME.

but if I am just saying simple reminders,  STOP fearing or stop assuming .   IF I come saying you cant eat meat ,  correct me

IF I come saying WE have to keep HOLY DAYS , then correct me .  BUT IF I am pointing to JESUS , HIS SAYINGS and the APOSTELS .   LET a puny thing warn or exhort .

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 minutes ago, George said:

Interesting comment -- as you think people get banned easily.  People get removed from threads for personal attacks.  A personal attack -- is not tolerated -- it's not a hard rule.  People are removed from threads -- however it's very difficult to be "banned" entirely from the forums!  

Debate the subject -- not the person!   Remember the Terms of Service .... this is what people signed up for to participate in the forums ...

This is from the TERMS OF SERVICE --

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk. (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

Just so you know ... 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

THROW those hands up and praise the LORD .    It is usually others that get banned , not me so much .    Now lets raise those hands and PRAISE the LORD . 

[frienduff thaylorde]

12 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Well, most did have a humble view of themselves at least. 

They all did .    Just because paul said BE LIKE ME ,  don't mean paul preached paul  , for he said WHO he followed.

its soley by the grace of GOD .     Just cause paul warned he would come with a rod ,  does not mean he was prideful . 

IF a man exhorts and points to Christ day in and day out , rest assured they aint prideful .   

No matter if they approach gravely or compassionately .   Now let us praise the LORD . 

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Like I have said in the past, your writing style is a bit confusing, so when you say things like...

"The fact you cant SEE I know that , IS so messed up .     Butero KNOWS IT too.      Apparently peter did and paul did too, WHEN they warned about falling away .

apparently for sure JESUS KNEW TOO when he warned and exhorted about continuing in HIM

This has got to end .    If some don't like the early church style exhortations ,  JUST SAY SO .    I mean sure I aint going to stop .   but at least we know where we stand ."

it just appears you are disagreeing because I can't see. What am I assuming?

THEN you did agree with me when you quoated my saying .   I thought or assumed otherwise .    I thought you were quoating me to correct my statement .

I had no idea you agreed with it .    Sorry about that .

[frienduff thaylorde]

Just now, Yowm said:

I guess you haven't read the problems Paul had with the Corinthian Church? Spiritual pride, puffed up, selfishness, divisions, cliques, drunkenness etc. etc.. Yet Paul called them saints, sanctified, washed etc..

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
(1Co 1:2) 

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(1Co 6:11)
 

When paul was a writing he was writing to the WHOLE CHURCH.   Telling them what to do and what not to.  who to follow and who not too.

The one who erred was booted out , and we need to keep that pattern .  Separate those in error , till they repent .   It works .  the man did repent

and the church was guarded from the rise of leaven .    Man I wish I seen more of this in churches .    the early pattern.   Don't you.

instead of hugging those who do sin and just doing nothing about it ,  WHY not keep the pattern the early church did .    Put that fear Right into those who erred .

We need that pattern back .   hugs ,  they aint doing a lick of good ,without correction    ,  its just letting the leaven go through the roof .

And the best way to keep a church built up .   SOUND DOCTRINE .   just read them letters as a whole .   What sharpness, what reminders ,

Where has this went .    I mean you even saw a man on a video warning out against the false ones who were saying its wrong to name names .

WE NEED the early pattern back.  I MEAN JESUS LORD of lords and KING of kings SET IT .    IT WORKS .  HE SET IT .   

[ayin jade]

50 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It wasn't the case that they had to meet men's standards.   Rather they were watching to see if their profession and their works agreed.   They wanted to see if the conversion was genuine and there was a life consistent with the teachings of Scripture.  They wanted to see fruit.

You have to kind of understand that things had changed a lot in the church and they were being infiltrated by false believers like the Gnostics, Docetists Ebionites and others who were  teaching false gospels and false doctrines. Not only that, but they were being infiltrated by moles from among the Jews and the Greco-Roman world to spy on them and report on them.  It was kind of necessary to do what they did, given the threats that they faced.

Not being permitted to be baptized until 2 yrs after they profess faith isnt biblical regardless of motives. An unsaved person will only get wet if baptized without true faith. So there really isnt any good reason to refuse to baptize someone. 

[ayin jade]

49 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I agreed with the post .    That is why I said ,  what I did .   So many of us assume things about the other .  and it looks like everyone has done that .

Everyone includes myself as well. BUT WE ALL DO it and some much worse than others .

So how bout we just start over .   And when I bring exhortations just be ENCOURAGED .   IF they true , if not EXPOSE the Exhortation as a lie .

I mean all I did at first was say KEEP JESUS sayings , Keep the apostels pattern who kept JESUS sayings .  and I was attacked as though I preached WORKS .

That is when the divisions began .   IF a man comes exhorting truth. LET THEM and don't assume they mean anything by it , other than what they are saying .

WHEN I said HOW do we KNOW we LOVE JESUS ,   WE KEEP HIS SAYINGS ,  I was bombared for even saying that .  

let people just exhort .   IF I come saying hey if you don't DO six hail marys ,  or the only way into heaven is by doing good works. THEN CORRECT ME.

but if I am just saying simple reminders,  STOP fearing or stop assuming .   IF I come saying you cant eat meat ,  correct me

IF I come saying WE have to keep HOLY DAYS , then correct me .  BUT IF I am pointing to JESUS , HIS SAYINGS and the APOSTELS .   LET a puny thing warn or exhort .

Did you ever consider that its not the message you bring but the way you bring it? If you wish me to elaborate, I will. In pm though. I have been holding back from showing this to you on the public forum.

[Gideon]

22 hours ago, Not me said:

@WordSword

In my heart the strongest evidence, or proof, (that I am aware of at the moment at least), in favor of OSAS is the issue of the “birth”. 

Seeing how when a “birth” happens, it can never be undone. Once that life has been formed  that life forever is made up of the products of that union. Many things both good and bad can happen to that life. But the “facts” of which union it was “birthed” from, can never be changed. It seems to me that same would hold true to the “New Birth” once that union has been formed and the New Birth has happened it can never be undone. And since it is the Divine Nature that has been brought to birth in a individual. That individual would be brought forth by a life that can never die. Now how much growth, that “birth or life” had,  or became in possession of, is a matter of another thread. But once that “birth” has happened in a person,  it can never be undone. (my thoughts on the subject, anyways)

much love in Christ, Not me

Brother, here is the question. Paul tells us that we died when Jesus died, and just as Jesus rose from the dead to newness of life, we are told that we did as well. But what if someone never reckons themselves dead to the sin that once ruled over them? What if they never,by faith, put on the new man? Will it profit them? 

Here is what we re told in the Word concerning the importance of mixing faith with truth to make it come alive:

”But it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

I fully believe in the security of a believer, but that is the catch. We must remain believers. As long as we walk out our lives in our old nature, we give Satan great advantage, for here, sin is not only possible, but inevitable.    One will say “Yes, but we can confess it and be forgiven. And that is very true.

But satan’s ultimate goal is to not to get us to sin, but to root out faith in our hearts. And how does he accomplish this? By a process of hardening our hearts, as each sin, big or small, slowly coats our hearts and chokes the life out of it. Faith is slowly turned into head knowledge and it is such a slow process, we can barely perceive it. That is what we are, even as children of God, exhorted to examine ourselves whether we be “in the faith”. This does not refer to believing with our heads that Jesus is our savior, and died for our sins. It is by faith, abiding in Him, where Christ actually dwells in our hearts by faith. This is the  place of safety, and no other. 

Paul himself said that he kept his body under..... speaking of his old nature..... lest after preaching to others, he himself might be a castaway. Why would he say such a thing if such a thing were not possible? Why did he write to the Romans and tell them in chapter 11 that if we continue in His goodness, we will not be cut off?  The preponderance of scripture warns us again and again that our job is not to work to stay saved, but to abide in Him by faith in order to be assured that we remain saved.  

Parables that Jesus told say the same thing. What of the parable of the sower? The good seed was cast forth everywhere. On the stony ground, no life sprang forth. However, what of the good seed that actually sprouted forth to newness of life?  Some fell among weeds, and the cares of this life choked the life out of it. Some fell on shallow ground and again, the good seed birthd real life. But here the ground was never well prepared nor plowed deep, and the life remained shallow. It looked just like the seed that grew on good ground, but when the drought hit, the life withered and died. 

Jesus told us that every branch in Him that bears not fruit will be cut off. We want to claim that this is legalism, and that I am proposing we must bear fruit. No. We must finally abide in Him, and if we do, we WILL bear fruit. And how do we then abide in Him? We reckon ourselves.... the old us.... our fleshly nature.... as dead.  

We have spent years trying to die to self, and all to no avail. But praise God, when we finally take the leap of faith that we are no longer that old man ruled by the power of darkness, and put on our new natures that  can be caused to obey Him and can abide in Him, we find the security that we so long to find.

Just something to think on. I know you agree with much of this, but as to the stand of OSAS, we seem to be, at least at present, on opposite sides of the fence. 

Many  blessings, 

Gids

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Gideon

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

Not being permitted to be baptized until 2 yrs after they profess faith isnt biblical regardless of motives.

There is no biblical requirement that a person be baptized immediately, so no doctrine in Scripture is violated.  And the motives were reasonable given the threats they faced.

Quote

An unsaved person will only get wet if baptized without true faith. So there really isnt any good reason to refuse to baptize someone. 

In their day there was a good reason.   Baptism gave you unfettered access to the congregation and possibly rise to leadership.   Due to the infiltration of false teachers who would potentially become leaders, such as pastors, who would lead others astray, there was cause for examination and watching someone to make sure their conversion was true.  Typically, if they are not a true believer, two years was sufficient time for that to be revealed.   The last thing you wanted to do was to baptize a false teacher who would then be able to gather a following and wreak havoc in the congregations. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Gideon said:

Brother, here is the question. Paul tells us that we died when Jesus died, and just as Jesus rose from the dead to newness of life, we are told that we did as well. But what if someone never reckons themselves dead to the sin that once ruled over them? What if they never,by faith, put on the new man? Will it profit them? 
 

It wouldn't profit them because they are not saved.

Quote

 

Here is what we re told in the Word concerning the importance of mixing faith with truth to make it come alive:

”But it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

 

But that is not about salvation from sin.

 

Quote

I fully believe in the security of a believer, but that is the catch. We must remain believers.

It is impossible for us to remain believers.   We didn't become believers on our own and we didn't magically, all of a sudden become good enough to remain believers.   There is not no catch.  The problem is that you really don't grasp what assurance is.   Assurance is Jesus keeping us saved, not us keeping ourselves saved.   You are either going to stand before the Lord some day and be judged on your own merit, or you can go to the judgement bar today and be judge righteous on the merits of Jesus Christ alone.   

 

Quote

As long as we walk out our lives in our old nature, we give Satan great advantage, for here, sin is not only possible, but inevitable.    One will say “Yes, but we can confess it and be forgiven. And that is very true.

If you are still walking in your old nature, you were never saved. 

 

Quote

But satan’s ultimate goal is to not to get us to sin, but to root out faith in our hearts. And how does he accomplish this? By a process of hardening our hearts, as each sin, big or small, slowly coats our hearts and chokes the life out of it. Faith is slowly turned into head knowledge and it is such a slow process, we can barely perceive it. That is what we are, even as children of God, exhorted to examine ourselves whether we be “in the faith”. This does not refer to believing with our heads that Jesus is our savior, and died for our sins. It is by faith, abiding in Him, where Christ actually dwells in our hearts by faith. This is the  place of safety, and no other. 

We are commanded to abide in Christ, but that is actually His power to do so, not our own.  We are not to operate in our own strength to keep ourselves saved.  WE abide Him because He keeps us savd.

 

Quote

Paul himself said that he kept his body under..... speaking of his old nature..... lest after preaching to others, he himself might be a castaway. Why would he say such a thing if such a thing were not possible?

That is talking about not being disqualified for service. He is not saying he will a castaway from salvation.

 

Quote

Why did he write to the Romans and tell them in chapter 11 that if we continue in His goodness, we will not be cut off? 

Why?  Because the context is about our participation in the blessings promised to Israel.  It is not talking about being cut off from salvation.   You need to pay attention to the context.   Paul is using an olive tree metaphor to discuss the relationship of the church to Israel.   It is not talking about we are saved from sin.

Quote

 The preponderance of scripture warns us again and again that our job is not to work to stay saved, but to abide in Him by faith in order to be assured that we remain saved.  

That is a self-contradictory statement.    We don't work  to be stay saved, but we have to work abide in him by faith to stay saved?  You are making abiding in Him a work that we must perform as a condition of salvation.  That is a completely self-defeating statement.  You are, ultimately, teaching a works-based salvation.

Parables that Jesus told say the same thing. What of the parable of the sower? The good seed was cast forth everywhere. On the stony ground, no life sprang forth. However, what of the good seed that actually sprouted forth to newness of life?  Some fell among weeds, and the cares of this life choked the life out of it. Some fell on shallow ground and again, the good seed birthd real life. But here the ground was never well prepared nor plowed deep, and the life remained shallow. It looked just like the seed that grew on good ground, but when the drought hit, the life withered and died. 

Quote

Jesus told us that every branch in Him that bears not fruit will be cut off. We want to claim that this is legalism, and that I am proposing we must bear fruit. No. We must finally abide in Him, and if we do, we WILL bear fruit. And how do we then abide in Him? We reckon ourselves.... the old us.... our fleshly nature.... as dead.  

The branches in him that are cut off were never believers in the first place.   In context, that verse is talking about Judas.   The vine tree metaphor was given at the last supper after Judas left the room.

Quote

Just something to think on. I know you agree with much of this, but as to the stand of OSAS, we seem to be, at least at present, on opposite sides of the fence. 

I guess it depends on whether or not you want to be judged based on your own efforts and merits, or if you want to be declared righteous based only on the merits of Jesus.