enoob57 Posted June 10, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,154 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,443 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Gideon said: Brother, you make a good point. When someone is still trapped in Romans 7, fruit will often be noticeably absent. But ultimately, if one continues growing in the Lord, those fruits should become visible, amen? Blessings, Enoob Gideon yes or God will take them home with nothing to glorify God with as suggested by this 1 Corinthians 3:13 (KJV) [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Edited June 10, 2018 by enoob57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted June 10, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2018 2 hours ago, enoob57 said: yes or God will take them home with nothing to glorify God with as suggested by this 1 Corinthians 3:13 (KJV) [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Yes, agreed. I hear all the time people say that as long as they just get to Heaven,that is enough for them. I am sure Heaven will be wonderful for all, but to face the One who died for us with nothing to show for it, and to have lived a life that did not bring glory to Him is something that not one upon us should rest content with. Blessings to you, Gids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted June 10, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Yowm said: What has any of this to do with the verses on the importance of doctrine, even in our salvation, which I listed?? Or are you trying to draw me into a personal debate rather than discuss the topic? From my post, you assumed I was downplaying the importance of doctrine. I was not at all. Correct doctrine accompanying submission to the Lord in all things,should bring forth fruit and obedience. But doctrine without fruit accompanying it is a red flag, and carried to the extreme is the path the Pharisees took. One of the real problems I see in the modern church is that in our divisiveness, we are often quick to jump on anyone who may not agree with our take on things doctrinally, even when they have scriptures that support their view as well. This is not done with humility, nor kindness, nor patience, and often those who do so try to lump them with beliefs and men holding to obvious error that are definitely not of God to bring them into disrepute. The term false prophet or false teacher is thrown around indiscriminately to further sully their opinion, subtly attacking the poster, rather than his opinions. What I am saying is that this is not in any way, shape or form Christ-like and should give men pause to examine their take on doctrine again to see where error might be found. If the doctrine is sound, then the problem is in a man’s heart. Be blessed, Gideon Edited June 10, 2018 by Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted June 10, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Yowm said: I had responded to your remark above with many Scriptures showing that doctrine is important even in the salvation of a person, but you responded with this... This did not address my objection where I showed you Scripture pointing to the necessity of sound doctrine. How will one bear fruit without first becoming born again and then abiding in sound teaching? I would rather sit under a hard and frank teacher telling me the truth than a syrupy preacher feeding me lies. Your interjection of personal traits had nothing to do with my objection to your statement about how doctrine 'draws or saves no one'. I never said sound doctrine was not important. But what draws men to the Lord is conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit indwelling men and shining forth the character of Christ Himself. Paul tells us in 1Corinthians 13 that we can possess all knowledge and understand all the mysteries of God but if we do not have love, it means nothing. Far too many churches are preaching what they see as truth, thinking they are doing quite well, but are not walking in it. Jesus is not shining forth from humble hearts full of compassion and kindness. This should bother us greatly, but the fact that, for the most part, it does not, leads many to view us as the epitome of Laodecia. Contentment without godliness is not great gain. Today many have a correct “form of godliness” but their lives, their hearts in no way display to the world that Christ is reigning as Lord over them as He indwells them. Thus, their very lives deny the power of God to a world desperate to see Jesus manifested in us. If our lives are not drawing people to ask “What is it that you possess that I do not.”, and if men in a loveless world are not exclaiming “Behold how they love one another!”, then we are approaching “clanging cymbal” stage. Yes , brother, correct doctrine is important. But in my personal opinion, the reason we as His body are such a divided and bickering mess is simply our lack of fruit. Lifelessness. If the joy of the Lord is our strength, and it is, does this not explain why so many live lives clinging to doctrine that may save their soul but brings them little if any true joy, rather than walking as overcomers? Far too many are simply going through our religious motions while the world wants nothing we have to offer them. Should this not bother us greatly? And the fact it does not should bother us even more. Why is it that so few are crying out to God to cause them bring forth fruits that bring glory to God. Sadly we have been taught that it will happen in due time, when a quick look at our lives tells the real Tory. We are pretty much the same people we were the day we were saved , with self still ruling the roost. We are told that in the last days, those in the world will know that He.... our Jesus... is THE Lord, when He shall be sanctified IN US before their very eyes. That day is fast approaching, but tears are going to have to be shed and pride swallowed before the church is restored to her former glory. Blessimgs to you, brother Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, Gideon said: I never said sound doctrine was not important. But what draws men to the Lord is conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit indwelling men and shining forth the character of Christ Himself. Which is what doctrine teaches. I am not sure you really understand what doctrine is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted June 11, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2018 23 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Which is what doctrine teaches. I am not sure you really understand what doctrine is. Then can you please explain why the fruits of the Spirit are so noticeably absent in answers given to many on this forum who disagree with the OSAS stance? Blessings, Shiloh Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, Gideon said: Then can you please explain why the fruits of the Spirit are so noticeably absent in answers given to many on this forum who disagree with the OSAS stance? Blessings, Shiloh Gideon Pride. And an avoidance of doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Butero said: Are you accusing him of pride and an avoidance of doctrine or are you admitting that is your problem? I was answering this question: "Then can you please explain why the fruits of the Spirit are so noticeably absent in answers given to many on this forum who disagree with the OSAS stance?" I am saying that opposition to Eternal Security is rooted human pride that wants to be good enough to be saved, that wants salvation to be an earned reward, even though all of biblical doctrine regarding salvation completely severs salvation from any kind of personal merit, or human effort. So, "pride and avoidance of doctrine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Butero said: That clears that up. I really wasn't sure how to take your answer. The answer is misguided and wrong, but at least I know what you are saying. Nobody I know of believes they live good enough to save themselves. An-OSAS most assuredly believe that they are saved by works, that they are good enough to keep and maintain their salvation by works. Quote We do not believe Jesus sent his Son to simply give people a get out of hell free card so they can sin all they want and get to heaven. We recognize nobody can make it to heaven based on merit. Well no one believes we can sin as much as we want. It's just that those of us who understand salvation, have come to the realization that those who are truly saved, are not looking for ways to sin, do not enjoy living sin and have been recreated and have a transformed heart that seeks to serve God sincerely. But the anti-OSAS view ultimately makes works necessary for salvation either at the front, or at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Butero said: If you don't believe you can sin as much as you want, you don't believe in OSAS. Seriously, why can't you sin as much as you want if you don't have to worry about it effecting your salvation? You lose a crown or two if you sin. Big deal! I explained why. We don't believe we can sin as much as we want because we are transformed and are not looking to sin. We don't want to live in sin. We are not trying to keep from sinning because we have an inner law working within us as new creations who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If you can live in sin and enjoy it, there is a real problem, namely such a person was never changed. Quote The OSAS crowd believes works are necessary to get saved. It is necessary to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and make confession. Those are works you did. You saved yourself. Not true. Those are not "works." There are things we have to do, namely we called to obey the Gospel, repent of our sin and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. But those are not "works" in terms of how the Bible uses the term "works." When the Bible uses that term, it is referring to works of merit. We cannot "work" to earn salvation. There are things we must do to receive salvation, but we are not attempting anything along the lives of "works" to earn or merit salvation. So your argument doesn't hold any water. Quote The group that rejects OSAS gets saved the same way. The only difference is we believe that you can do things to disqualify yourself after you get saved. Which is the epitome of works-based salvation. First of all, you were never "qualified" to be saved. You cannot be disqualified from something you never qualified for in the first place. Quote It is not so much the need to do works as it is the need to simply follow Christ, to shun the wrong and be obedient children. No matter how much you try to spin things, there is no way you can prove there is any pride involved. Again, that is the epitome of a works-based system of righteousness when you attach works as a "need" in terms of staying saved. Your works aren't good enough to get you saved, they don't magically become good enough to keep you saved. Quote As a matter of fact, a person who believes in OSAS can be prideful. Anyone can be prideful. But that is beside the point. If you feel your works are needed in addition to faith in Jesus, you are claiming that Jesus is not fully sufficient and that is pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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