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MadHermit

You should strive to speak in tongues.

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A 7-POINT CHARISMATIC MANIFESTO  

(1) Paul repeatedly commands us to (1) follow his example (1 Cor 4:16: 11:1; Phil 3:17) and his example includes a life that demonstrates the power of the Spirit (1 Cor 4:16, 19-20) and not just applying correct doctrinal principles.

(2) Following Paul's example includes fulfilling his spiritual priorities.  In 1 Corinthians Paul wants us all to speak in tongues (14:5) and thanks God that he speaks in tongues (privately) more than everyone (14:18).  Paul's wish and example are in effect a command for 2 reasons:

(3) Paul commands us all to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18), I. e. to pray with the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and the only example he gives of praying in the Spirit is speaking in tongues (1b Cor 14:15).

(4) 1 Cor 12:29-30 has been misinterpreted to imply that God does not intend everyone to receive the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues.  But Paul is merely observing that not every believer actually exercises these spiritual gifts.  We know this be   (a) because Paul wants us all to speak in tongues and then assures us "you can all prophesy one by one."  He thereby implies that at least these 2 charisms are for every believer.                                                                                                                                             (b) because Paul twice Paul commands us to "strive for" spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1) and both times he then discusses the gifts of tongues and prophecy.  So at least he has both gifts in mind as required objects of spiritual striving. 

(5) Modern evangelicals pervert Paul's teaching by twisting his insistence that tongues be interpreted in a public meeting attended bu outsiders into an anti-tongues polemic. In fact, Paul teaches that private tongues "builds up" the believer (1 Cor 14:4), that praying tongues enhances praise and worship and should be privately practiced (14:28).  The importance of prayer in tongues for Paul is reinforced by his gratitude that he speaks in tongues more than everyone.

(6) No academic commentary offers a biblical justification (eg. 1 Cor 13:8, 1o) for the cessationist view. The cessationist view is anti-Scriptural and grieves the Holy Spirit by disparaging the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit has to offer.

(7) Acts 2 is not normative for glossolalia and tongues Greek: glossai) need not be human languages. The tongues in Acts 2 doubles as prophecy (2:18 citing Joel 2:27-28) because the witnesses understand it, but the tongues in 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 is neither understood nor interpreted and is distinguished from prophesy (19:6).  Indeed, Paul construes the apparent gibberish as "the tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1).  Greek descriptions of speaking in tongues at Delphic construe it as gibberish that needs to be interpreted by a prophet of Apollo.  So the word "glossai" need not mean "human languages." 

 

 

Edited by MadHermit

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No one can strive to have any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit...

They are GIFTS ....  They are given when they are given freely to whom the Holy Spirit desires to give them..

 

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In the beginning God used His Word to create the evidence of Himself:

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV


God chose written communication to reason with us:

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

Reasoning is the whole communication purpose of God:

Isa 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV


Without the interpretation of tongues the Word of God is made moot and if this is being practiced in community or private you are not given any assurance or promise it is from God...
Being told by God *we are to try the spirits* the practice of uninterpreted tongues is disobedience to God!

1 John 4:1

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
KJV


A simple statement-  that which is without reason cannot be reasoned with...

 


 

 

Edited by enoob57
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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:00 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

1 Corinthians  12:29-31  29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?  30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?  31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Cobalt: "Paul's example certainly does not say that everyone is supposed to chase after tongues."

Yes it does: You didn't read my OP carefully.  Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit (Eph 6:18)" and the only type of praying in the Spirit he mentions is speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:14-15).   Twice Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1)" and in both cases he follows up this command with reference to the gifts of prophecy and tongues.  That is certainly the equivalent of a command!  Indeed, he proceeds to say, "you can all prophesy one after another (14:31)"  to reinforce his teaching that, unlike some gifts, tongues and prophecy are for everyone.  btw, I convinced my Harvard religion professors of this fact in my doctoral dissertation on the gift of prophecy.  The great value he places on tongues is clearly implied by his celebration of the fact that he thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (14:28).   

Cobalt: "Today's so-called "tongues" displayed in charismatic "churches" benefit no one.   They do not edify or build up.  They are centered on self and used to give the speaker a greater sense of importance."

Rubbish!  I doubt I'd even be a Christian today, were it not for my Spirit baptism at age 16, during which I was forced to speak in tongues at the top of my voice and spectators watched in awe, saying that my face was actually glowing in the dim light!  A Lutheran pastor interrupted me, confessing that he didn't believe in tongues and, rather than try to dissuade him, I simply touched him gently on the forehead and he exploded in tongues!  And what was the lasting benefit?  That experience left me  with the gift of "the world of knowledge" and, more importantly, transformed me from an ordinary student to the top ranked student in my Canadian province, an honor that led to college scholarships to Princeton (Masters) and Harvard (doctorate).   Even now, I continually draw strength and spiritual nourishment from the very memory of that awesome encounter with God.  So I have no reticence about saying absolutely that you are pontificating from ignorance.  

Cobalt: "There is no precedent in the NT for the kind of insane nonsense we have seen over the last 4 decades in places like Toronto or Bethel Church.  Do you think Paul would endorse such lunacy that we see in today's Charismatic circles such as gold dust or feathers falling from the ceiling?  Or grave-sucking?  Or fire tunnels?  Or a prosperity doctrine completely devoid of repentance?"

Now you illustrate why the big bad world of scholarship doesn't take fundamentalist apologetics seriously.  You resort to the use of extreme cases as a straw man to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with what Paul actually  teaches and how blessed many of us have been by our experience of Spirit baptism.  btw. I also convinced my Harvard professors that that language of Romans 8:26 (Greek: "stenagmoi alaletai") proves that it is a reference to speaking in tongues.  So another function of speaking in tongues its role in allowing the Spirit to pray through us for what we should really be praying for.

 

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:22 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

Paul doesn't seem to know that we should chase after tongues, does he?  It helps when you take a section of scripture in it's entirety instead of using a couple of verses out of context as proof texts.

 

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59 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

cobalt: "I am not using extreme cases.  In charismatic dogma, tongues is stressed above anything else. " 

Wrong!  I grew up in the first Canadian Pentecostal church to arise in response to the Axuza Street Revival.  Our church members often complained that so little stress was given to the gift of tongues in our sermons and Sunday School teaching!

 

Cobalt: "Deal with this (1 Corinthians 14:9-19) ." 

I have, repeatedly.  Paul is dealing here with the specific problem of uninterpreted tongues durin public worship services in which outsiders are present.  Otherwise, he encourages private prayer in tongues an thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone.  In my own experience, my tongues breakthrough came after the service was dismissed and seekers were invited to tarry at the altar.  The lights were dimmed, but witnesses sensed that something miraculous was happening to me and my face was glowing in the now dim light.  That Lutheran pastor had no chance to defend the skepticism he expressed about tongues.  When I touched his forehead, he just exploded into tongues!

Cobalt: "You can make all kinds of claims about speaking in tongues, but all of them are meaningless because you cannot give any proof that you were speaking in tongues."

Our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  You can give no grounds for assuming that my tongues was any less real than the tongues spoken by Paul and members of his churches.  The Greek word "glossai" (Tongues) means incomprehensible gibberish in Paul's day when it refers to ecstatic speech (Read the lengthy article on "glosse" in Kittel's massive volumes.)  For that matter, you have no experiential grounds for assuming that you have ever received or experienced the Holy Spirit.  Your argument is as absurd as someone claiming that any experience of the Holy Spirit was exclusively reserved for the apostolic age. 

Cobalt: "You also would not have been "forced" to do so since Paul tells us, just a few verses later in the above chapter that the speaker is always in control."

You forget that I was eager to speak in authentic tongues, but believed that others  were doing so inauthentically.  So I was determined  not to maintain an attitude of resistance to the power of suggestion.  So when I felt the sublime heavenly breeze and wave after wave of liquid love flowed through me,--each more intense and beautiful than the one before--I just surrendered to the overpowering presence of the Spirit.  I'm amused by your irrelevant line of questioning because I'd bet anything that if you had experienced what I did that wonderful evening, it would be BY FAR the most memorable, powerful, beautiful, and life-changing experience of your life!  As I've said, I was so skeptical about the truth of the Bible at the time that I doubt I would even be a Christian now, were if not for that experience; and I regularly feast off the memory of it decades later with great profit in ontemplating what God can do in Christian experience.

Cobalt: "Any time a person is not in control of themselves, that is not God working.  The Holy Spirit does not force someone to do something against their will."

You are misinterpreting 1 Cor 14:32 and ignoring 14:30: "If a revelation is made to someone sitting nearby, let the first person be silent."  

Notice that Paul does not instruct the 2nd person to stifle their ecstatic impulse until the prophesier or tongues speaker is finished.  Rather, he tells the ecstatic speaker to be quiet, when the snother speaker bursts into ecstatic speech before he feels he is finished speaking.   The initial impulse is not stifled when the Spirit inspires; Paul warns us not to quench the Spirit (! Thess 4:19)

.Cobalt: "In the example you used for yourself, everything is about how speaking in tongues benefited you.   It's supposed to be building up the Church, not you."  

Wrong!  Interpreted tongues are supposed to build up the church, but private tongues build up the individual believer (14:4)..  It built up the church as well in the sense that God called me to dedicate my life to fulltime ministry and it transformed that skeptical Lutheran pastor into a Spirit-filled charismatic. It also gave me the gift of "the word of knowledge" which I  have often exercised with profit over the years.

 

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Adstar: "No one can strive to have any of the gifts of the Spirit."

Read 1 Cor 12:31 and 14:1.  In both texts Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts."

The real question is how to strive.   Here are 5 tips:                                                                                                                                                             (1) First, begin by longing to speak in tongues in obedience to God's command and Paul's example.                                                                             (2) Then seek the Giver, not the gift.  If you continue to seek the gift, you are in danger of turning tongues into a spiritual fetish.  Above all, don't attend a charismatic church where you are encouraged, "Just speak it out and fluency in tongues will follow!"  This is a recipe for speaking in the flesh.  Remember, you need to honor the Spirit's timing.  The Holy Spirit does not jump just because you crack your whip!                           (3) The best way is to allow yourself to get lost in praise until your words seem inadequate to express the awe and joy you feel as you feast on the Spirit's presence.  Then out of the sublime frustration of that feeling of inadequacy, authentic tongues will overwhelm you. You will feel like a chosen divine instrument under the Spirit's control.                                                                                                                                                       (4) If you can wonder later whether what you just experienced was real, assume that you probably did not experience the real thing.  The real thing is so wonderful, so powerful that it is beyond doubting and indeed is self-authenticating.                                                                                 (5) Finally, look for the "fruits of the Spirit" and other spiritual gifts and abilities that are bestowed on you, together with the gift of tongues.  In m my case, I received the gift of "The word of knowledge" and my academic performance was suddenly spectacularly improved.  But my fellow believer, Mark, received the gift of healing after the gift of tongues and healing testimonies from his ministry are legendary around here.

 

 

Edited by George
Removed: Duh ... -- There's no need to be condescending. :)

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39 minutes ago, Butero said:

Paul says to pray in the Spirit and with the understanding.  We don't pray in tongues for the benefit of the church.  We pray in tongues so the Spirit can pray through us for what we really need.  That is quite different from speaking in tongues in church, where an interpreter is required.  

The gift of tongues can benefit the church.  God will give a message through someone in tongues, and another person will interpret, or perhaps the person that gave out the message will interpret.  

Then this isn't fully true then
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)

[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

we, according to what you have said, also need present day speaking of God to us through tongues?

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On 6/9/2018 at 4:00 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

1 Corinthians  12:29-31  29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?  30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?  31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Paul's example certainly does not say that everyone is supposed to chase after tongues.  Today's so-called "tongues" displayed in charismatic "churches" benefit no one.   They do not edify or build up.  They are centered on self and used to give the speaker a greater sense of importance.  There is no precedent in the NT for the kind of insane nonsense we have seen over the last 4 decades in places like Toronto or Bethel Church.  Do you think Paul would endorse such lunacy that we see in today's Charismatic circles such as gold dust or feathers falling from the ceiling?  Or grave-sucking?  Or fire tunnels?  Or a prosperity doctrine completely devoid of repentance?

Are you saying that because of the error of some it nullifies Gods written word?  Because some people are doing it wrong then we are not to desire the gifts of The Spirit, which the bible commands us to do? 

with such zeal as you have shown here, if you apply this to desiring the gifts thru prayer... surely God will use you to edify the church. 

and besides this, if you do edify yourself you will be in a better position to edify others also. 

I tell you of a certainty, when The Spirit falls on you and interprets either tongue or dream and someone is edified there is such a great sense of eternal value you receive for being Gods vessel.  There is nothing like when God uses you. 

Just because some people do not understand scripture and do things wrong... dont let that hinder you from edifying others.  but also think on this:

1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40Let all things be done decently and in order.

Yes, those you speak against are not acting orderly, but are you forbidding what the bible says not to?  Maybe you are, maybe you are not, but it seems like you are.  And just so you know, I hate the things you speak against too. 

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On 6/13/2018 at 11:47 PM, MadHermit said:

Adstar: "No one can strive to have any of the gifts of the Spirit."

Read 1 Cor 12:31 and 14:1.  In both texts Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts."

The real question is how to strive.   Here are 5 tips:                                                                                                                                                             (1) First, begin by longing to speak in tongues in obedience to God's command and Paul's example.                                                                             (2) Then seek the Giver, not the gift.  If you continue to seek the gift, you are in danger of turning tongues into a spiritual fetish.  Above all, don't attend a charismatic church where you are encouraged, "Just speak it out and fluency in tongues will follow!"  This is a recipe for speaking in the flesh.  Remember, you need to honor the Spirit's timing.  The Holy Spirit does not jump just because you crack your whip!                           (3) The best way is to allow yourself to get lost in praise until your words seem inadequate to express the awe and joy you feel as you feast on the Spirit's presence.  Then out of the sublime frustration of that feeling of inadequacy, authentic tongues will overwhelm you. You will feel like a chosen divine instrument under the Spirit's control.                                                                                                                                                       (4) If you can wonder later whether what you just experienced was real, assume that you probably did not experience the real thing.  The real thing is so wonderful, so powerful that it is beyond doubting and indeed is self-authenticating.                                                                                 (5) Finally, look for the "fruits of the Spirit" and other spiritual gifts and abilities that are bestowed on you, together with the gift of tongues.  In m my case, I received the gift of "The word of knowledge" and my academic performance was suddenly spectacularly improved.  But my fellow believer, Mark, received the gift of healing after the gift of tongues and healing testimonies from his ministry are legendary around here.

 

 

Paul actually says you should pursue the "best" or "greater"  spiritual gifts, and he is using the gift of tongues as the actual context for a gift that is NOT the best or greater.

Also, in general, worrying about tongues, is a rabbit trail that leads nowhere.

What is a better idea, and what is the best idea, is to realize one specific thing about your Christianity.....and that is...... You are going to meet Yeshua the Lord and you are going to give account of "what you did in the body".........In other words, what you did with you life, as an obedient sacrifice for him....... And He is absolutely not interested in your conversation about how you worried about "tongues" all your Christian life, instead of worrying about LOST SOULS, and Holiness, and growing in Grace and Love, and pursuing a ministry that helps people with their lives as well as their spiritual lives.

So, you should spend your time studying Paul's doctrines, Living Holy, and winning souls, and serving the hurting., and try not to get caught up in rabbit trail christianity that in the end, will offer nothing to Jesus that would have been a credible discipleship.

 

 

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On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:59 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

Butero: "We are NEVER supposed to seek to edify ourselves.  Self is supposed to always be our LAST priority.  Edifying self is a 100% selfish motivation and it bestows benefits on no one."

You don't recognize the heresy you utter.  Edification is a matter of equipping the saints to develop the way of being that allows God to make effective use of them in His service--just the opp0site of what you claim.  

Buter0: "Focus is on?  Self.  Not God.  Self.  I want stuff.  Give it to me.  Remember what God says about earthly rewards?"

If you bothered to read what I said, I make the just the opposite point--that the authentic gift of tongues is best0wed when the focus is taken off the self by shifting the focus from the gift to the Giver and getting lost in praise.  You talk as though the Holy Spirit is an idiot who gives spiritual gifts that are pure garbage and of no used for developing spiritual maturity.  Have you committed the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Butero: "The incredibly misguided attitude that there has to be a message in tongues every service or someone has to be "saved" every service or God just isn't working is laughable".Are you having a psychotic break into irrelevancies? 

If you bothered to read my posts, I make just the opposite point that in my Pentecostal church the people complained that speaking in tongues and manifestations in church were being deemphasized too much!  Please learn to read.  And like so many simple-minded anti-Pentecostal polemicists, you create a false and unkind stereotype of Pentecostalism.  I have never even met a Pentecostal who believed that speaking in tongues was necessary for salvation.  Duh!  

 

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