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MadHermit

You should strive to speak in tongues.

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A 7-POINT CHARISMATIC MANIFESTO  

(1) Paul repeatedly commands us to (1) follow his example (1 Cor 4:16: 11:1; Phil 3:17) and his example includes a life that demonstrates the power of the Spirit (1 Cor 4:16, 19-20) and not just applying correct doctrinal principles.

(2) Following Paul's example includes fulfilling his spiritual priorities.  In 1 Corinthians Paul wants us all to speak in tongues (14:5) and thanks God that he speaks in tongues (privately) more than everyone (14:18).  Paul's wish and example are in effect a command for 2 reasons:

(3) Paul commands us all to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18), I. e. to pray with the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and the only example he gives of praying in the Spirit is speaking in tongues (1b Cor 14:15).

(4) 1 Cor 12:29-30 has been misinterpreted to imply that God does not intend everyone to receive the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues.  But Paul is merely observing that not every believer actually exercises these spiritual gifts.  We know this be   (a) because Paul wants us all to speak in tongues and then assures us "you can all prophesy one by one."  He thereby implies that at least these 2 charisms are for every believer.                                                                                                                                             (b) because Paul twice Paul commands us to "strive for" spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1) and both times he then discusses the gifts of tongues and prophecy.  So at least he has both gifts in mind as required objects of spiritual striving. 

(5) Modern evangelicals pervert Paul's teaching by twisting his insistence that tongues be interpreted in a public meeting attended bu outsiders into an anti-tongues polemic. In fact, Paul teaches that private tongues "builds up" the believer (1 Cor 14:4), that praying tongues enhances praise and worship and should be privately practiced (14:28).  The importance of prayer in tongues for Paul is reinforced by his gratitude that he speaks in tongues more than everyone.

(6) No academic commentary offers a biblical justification (eg. 1 Cor 13:8, 1o) for the cessationist view. The cessationist view is anti-Scriptural and grieves the Holy Spirit by disparaging the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit has to offer.

(7) Acts 2 is not normative for glossolalia and tongues Greek: glossai) need not be human languages. The tongues in Acts 2 doubles as prophecy (2:18 citing Joel 2:27-28) because the witnesses understand it, but the tongues in 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 is neither understood nor interpreted and is distinguished from prophesy (19:6).  Indeed, Paul construes the apparent gibberish as "the tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1).  Greek descriptions of speaking in tongues at Delphic construe it as gibberish that needs to be interpreted by a prophet of Apollo.  So the word "glossai" need not mean "human languages." 

 

 

Edited by MadHermit
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1 hour ago, MadHermit said:

A 7-POINT CHARISMATIC MANIFESTO  

(1) Paul repeatedly commands us to (1) follow his example (1 Cor 4:16: 11:1; Phil 3:17) and his example includes a life that demonstrates the power of the Spirit (1 Cor 4:16, 19-20) and not just applying correct doctrinal principles.

(2) Following Paul's example includes fulfilling his spiritual priorities.  In 1 Corinthians Paul wants us all to speak in tongues (14:5) and thanks God that he speaks in tongues (privately) more than everyone (14:18).  Paul's wish and example are in effect a command for 2 reasons:

(3) Paul commands us all to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18), I. e. to pray with the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and the only example he gives of praying in the Spirit is speaking in tongues (1b Cor 14:15).

(4) 1 Cor 12:29-30 has been misinterpreted to imply that God does not intend everyone to receive the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues.  But Paul is merely observing that not every believer actually exercises these spiritual gifts.  We know this be   (a) because Paul wants us all to speak in tongues and then assures us "you can all prophesy one by one."  He thereby implies that at least these 2 charisms are for every believer.                                                                                                                                             (b) because Paul twice Paul commands us to "strive for" spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1) and both times he then discusses the gifts of tongues and prophecy.  So at least he has both gifts in mind as required objects of spiritual striving. 

(5) Modern evangelicals pervert Paul's teaching by twisting his insistence that tongues be interpreted in a public meeting attended bu outsiders into an anti-tongues polemic. In fact, Paul teaches that private tongues "builds up" the believer (1 Cor 14:4), that praying tongues enhances praise and worship and should be privately practiced (14:28).  The importance of prayer in tongues for Paul is reinforced by his gratitude that he speaks in tongues more than everyone.

(6) No academic commentary offers a biblical justification (eg. 1 Cor 13:8, 1o) for the cessationist view. The cessationist view is anti-Scriptural and grieves the Holy Spirit by disparaging the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit has to offer.

(7) Acts 2 is not normative for glossolalia and tongues Greek: glossai) need not be human languages. The tongues in Acts 2 doubles as prophecy (2:18 citing Joel 2:27-28) because the witnesses understand it, but the tongues in 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 is neither understood nor interpreted and is distinguished from prophesy (19:6).  Indeed, Paul construes the apparent gibberish as "the tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1).  Greek descriptions of speaking in tongues at Delphic construe it as gibberish that needs to be interpreted by a prophet of Apollo.  So the word "glossai" need not mean "human languages." 

 

 

1 Corinthians  12:29-31  29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?  30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?  31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Paul's example certainly does not say that everyone is supposed to chase after tongues.  Today's so-called "tongues" displayed in charismatic "churches" benefit no one.   They do not edify or build up.  They are centered on self and used to give the speaker a greater sense of importance.  There is no precedent in the NT for the kind of insane nonsense we have seen over the last 4 decades in places like Toronto or Bethel Church.  Do you think Paul would endorse such lunacy that we see in today's Charismatic circles such as gold dust or feathers falling from the ceiling?  Or grave-sucking?  Or fire tunnels?  Or a prosperity doctrine completely devoid of repentance?

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No one can strive to have any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit...

They are GIFTS ....  They are given when they are given freely to whom the Holy Spirit desires to give them..

 

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Posted (edited)

In the beginning God used His Word to create the evidence of Himself:

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV


God chose written communication to reason with us:

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

Reasoning is the whole communication purpose of God:

Isa 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV


Without the interpretation of tongues the Word of God is made moot and if this is being practiced in community or private you are not given any assurance or promise it is from God...
Being told by God *we are to try the spirits* the practice of uninterpreted tongues is disobedience to God!

1 John 4:1

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
KJV


A simple statement-  that which is without reason cannot be reasoned with...

 


 

 

Edited by enoob57
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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, MadHermit said:

 

It would be easier for you to post if you used the quote function.

You make a lot of assumptions about me without knowing anything about me.  You call me ignorant.  You tell me I "don't know what I am talking about" (this is a common phrase when someone doesn't like being challenged.)  My logic is "absurd."  Hopefully you can think of a few more cliche' insults to place in your reply to this post.  Because insults graphically display both ones motivations, and ones attitude.  Since charismatics constantly claim to be more filled by the Spirit than anyone else out there, surely that same Spirit would not require them to insult people.  That's one of the first tip-offs to the rip-off.  If you are claiming to be Spirit-filled, in the Charismatic vernacular, but you are here insulting people who disagree with you, that displays a pretty large spiritual disconnect.  So I did you a favor and reported your insults.

I was in a Pentecostal church for 10 years.  Assemblies of God.  So I am well-versed in the subject of tongues and other gifts of the Spirit.  I've been in that atmosphere, week after week when it just wasn't a good service unless 2 or 3 people gave a message in tongues.  People had to fall out all the time or God just wasn't working.  Guest speakers claiming fantastic miracles that can't be confirmed.  You can say you touched the head of some Lutheran pastor and he instantly exploded into tongues, but how can anyone verify that?  You talk about the long-range impact of that incident for you.  So what?  What was the long-range impact of that incident for that church?  How did it benefit the Body?

Charismatics take the gifts and make everything revolve around them to where every Sunday has to be a supernatural Hootenanny.  This, they say, shows that God is working in "powerful" ways.  No one is actually changed at all, or built up because the focus isn't on the Word at all except some out-of-context verses used to support the concept that church is just about dancing around and speaking gibberish.  This abuse is not confined to a handful of churches.  The Charismatic churches are rife with it. 

What do you do with 1 Corinthians 14?

1 Corinthians 14:1:19  Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.  2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.  3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.  4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.  5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.  6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?  7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?  8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?  9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.  10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.  11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.  12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.  13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.  14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.  15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.  16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?  17 You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.  18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.  19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
 

Paul doesn't seem to know that we should chase after tongues, does he?  It helps when you take a section of scripture in it's entirety instead of using a couple of verses out of context as proof texts.

Edited by Cobalt1959
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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:00 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

1 Corinthians  12:29-31  29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?  30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?  31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Cobalt: "Paul's example certainly does not say that everyone is supposed to chase after tongues."

Yes it does: You didn't read my OP carefully.  Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit (Eph 6:18)" and the only type of praying in the Spirit he mentions is speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:14-15).   Twice Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1)" and in both cases he follows up this command with reference to the gifts of prophecy and tongues.  That is certainly the equivalent of a command!  Indeed, he proceeds to say, "you can all prophesy one after another (14:31)"  to reinforce his teaching that, unlike some gifts, tongues and prophecy are for everyone.  btw, I convinced my Harvard religion professors of this fact in my doctoral dissertation on the gift of prophecy.  The great value he places on tongues is clearly implied by his celebration of the fact that he thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (14:28).   

Cobalt: "Today's so-called "tongues" displayed in charismatic "churches" benefit no one.   They do not edify or build up.  They are centered on self and used to give the speaker a greater sense of importance."

Rubbish!  I doubt I'd even be a Christian today, were it not for my Spirit baptism at age 16, during which I was forced to speak in tongues at the top of my voice and spectators watched in awe, saying that my face was actually glowing in the dim light!  A Lutheran pastor interrupted me, confessing that he didn't believe in tongues and, rather than try to dissuade him, I simply touched him gently on the forehead and he exploded in tongues!  And what was the lasting benefit?  That experience left me  with the gift of "the world of knowledge" and, more importantly, transformed me from an ordinary student to the top ranked student in my Canadian province, an honor that led to college scholarships to Princeton (Masters) and Harvard (doctorate).   Even now, I continually draw strength and spiritual nourishment from the very memory of that awesome encounter with God.  So I have no reticence about saying absolutely that you are pontificating from ignorance.  

Cobalt: "There is no precedent in the NT for the kind of insane nonsense we have seen over the last 4 decades in places like Toronto or Bethel Church.  Do you think Paul would endorse such lunacy that we see in today's Charismatic circles such as gold dust or feathers falling from the ceiling?  Or grave-sucking?  Or fire tunnels?  Or a prosperity doctrine completely devoid of repentance?"

Now you illustrate why the big bad world of scholarship doesn't take fundamentalist apologetics seriously.  You resort to the use of extreme cases as a straw man to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with what Paul actually  teaches and how blessed many of us have been by our experience of Spirit baptism.  btw. I also convinced my Harvard professors that that language of Romans 8:26 (Greek: "stenagmoi alaletai") proves that it is a reference to speaking in tongues.  So another function of speaking in tongues its role in allowing the Spirit to pray through us for what we should really be praying for.

 

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:22 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

Paul doesn't seem to know that we should chase after tongues, does he?  It helps when you take a section of scripture in it's entirety instead of using a couple of verses out of context as proof texts.

 

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9 hours ago, MadHermit said:

 

 

I see you still have not figured out the "quote" function.

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17 hours ago, MadHermit said:

 

 

You just post a repeat of what you have already said?

I am not using extreme cases.  In charismatic dogma, tongues is stressed above anything else.  Deal with this:

 1 Corinthians 14:9-19  9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.  11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.  12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
 13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.  14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.  16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?  17 You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.  18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.  19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

 

You can make all kinds of claims about speaking in tongues, but all of them are meaningless because you cannot give any proof that you were speaking in tongues.  You also would not have been "forced" to do so since Paul tells us, just a few verses later in the above chapter that the speaker is always in control.  People mumbling, shaking, jerking or spasming are not in control of themselves.  This is normative behavior with charismatics, not an anomaly.  They seek the extreme, and that is the problem.  Paul tells us that things are supposed to be done in an orderly and fitting manner, not a chaotic free-for-all. 

You would call it extreme cases because the behavior itself cannot be defended in any way, biblically.   You cannot distance yourself from the behavior in that manner.  Any time a person is not in control of themselves, that is not God working.  The Holy Spirit does not force someone to do something against their will.  What does babbling in a tongue with no interpreter do for anyone?  Who benefits, beyond the speaker telling everyone how special they are because they speak in tongues?  It edifies self, and no one else.   In the example you used for yourself, everything is about how speaking in tongues benefited you.   It's supposed to be building up the Church, not you.  You glowed.  You were so powerful you made someone else do the same thing unwillingly.  You were a better student.  Self.  I asked but you never answered the question, so I'll ask again:

How did it benefit the Church?

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59 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

cobalt: "I am not using extreme cases.  In charismatic dogma, tongues is stressed above anything else. " 

Wrong!  I grew up in the first Canadian Pentecostal church to arise in response to the Axuza Street Revival.  Our church members often complained that so little stress was given to the gift of tongues in our sermons and Sunday School teaching!

 

Cobalt: "Deal with this (1 Corinthians 14:9-19) ." 

I have, repeatedly.  Paul is dealing here with the specific problem of uninterpreted tongues durin public worship services in which outsiders are present.  Otherwise, he encourages private prayer in tongues an thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone.  In my own experience, my tongues breakthrough came after the service was dismissed and seekers were invited to tarry at the altar.  The lights were dimmed, but witnesses sensed that something miraculous was happening to me and my face was glowing in the now dim light.  That Lutheran pastor had no chance to defend the skepticism he expressed about tongues.  When I touched his forehead, he just exploded into tongues!

Cobalt: "You can make all kinds of claims about speaking in tongues, but all of them are meaningless because you cannot give any proof that you were speaking in tongues."

Our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  You can give no grounds for assuming that my tongues was any less real than the tongues spoken by Paul and members of his churches.  The Greek word "glossai" (Tongues) means incomprehensible gibberish in Paul's day when it refers to ecstatic speech (Read the lengthy article on "glosse" in Kittel's massive volumes.)  For that matter, you have no experiential grounds for assuming that you have ever received or experienced the Holy Spirit.  Your argument is as absurd as someone claiming that any experience of the Holy Spirit was exclusively reserved for the apostolic age. 

Cobalt: "You also would not have been "forced" to do so since Paul tells us, just a few verses later in the above chapter that the speaker is always in control."

You forget that I was eager to speak in authentic tongues, but believed that others  were doing so inauthentically.  So I was determined  not to maintain an attitude of resistance to the power of suggestion.  So when I felt the sublime heavenly breeze and wave after wave of liquid love flowed through me,--each more intense and beautiful than the one before--I just surrendered to the overpowering presence of the Spirit.  I'm amused by your irrelevant line of questioning because I'd bet anything that if you had experienced what I did that wonderful evening, it would be BY FAR the most memorable, powerful, beautiful, and life-changing experience of your life!  As I've said, I was so skeptical about the truth of the Bible at the time that I doubt I would even be a Christian now, were if not for that experience; and I regularly feast off the memory of it decades later with great profit in ontemplating what God can do in Christian experience.

Cobalt: "Any time a person is not in control of themselves, that is not God working.  The Holy Spirit does not force someone to do something against their will."

You are misinterpreting 1 Cor 14:32 and ignoring 14:30: "If a revelation is made to someone sitting nearby, let the first person be silent."  

Notice that Paul does not instruct the 2nd person to stifle their ecstatic impulse until the prophesier or tongues speaker is finished.  Rather, he tells the ecstatic speaker to be quiet, when the snother speaker bursts into ecstatic speech before he feels he is finished speaking.   The initial impulse is not stifled when the Spirit inspires; Paul warns us not to quench the Spirit (! Thess 4:19)

.Cobalt: "In the example you used for yourself, everything is about how speaking in tongues benefited you.   It's supposed to be building up the Church, not you."  

Wrong!  Interpreted tongues are supposed to build up the church, but private tongues build up the individual believer (14:4)..  It built up the church as well in the sense that God called me to dedicate my life to fulltime ministry and it transformed that skeptical Lutheran pastor into a Spirit-filled charismatic. It also gave me the gift of "the word of knowledge" which I  have often exercised with profit over the years.

 

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27 minutes ago, MadHermit said:

 

I noticed you still have not answered my question.  I'll ask again, for the third time:

How did your speaking in tongues help the Church?  We get that you think you got all kinds of cool stuff out of it.  So what.  How did your church benefit?

You are going around in circles trying to distance yourself from the wretched excesses the Charismatic crowd engages in every week.  Singling out one church that doesn't do that does absolutely nothing to mitigate what the rest of the movement revels in.  My church didn't do it either, but the AoG is rife with it.

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