Heleadethme Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,267 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2018 These are some key words of Jesus Himself: Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Probably want to look up the word "hybrid" because that word doesn't define what we believe about Tribulation believers. Tribulation saints are those who, while the Church was still in the earth, rejected the Gospel message, but receive the Gospel message and are born again during that time. They are the martyrs of Rev. 7. That is not a new classification of believers. There are consequences to rejecting the Gospel and while they are forgiven, they still incur those consequences. It's no different than a serial killer getting saved in prison on death row. He still faces the consequences of the past, but is not any less of a believer than we are. They are not part of the Church. The Church will be in Heaven. They are part of God's family and are His children and will have an inheritance just as we do. The term "body of Christ" needs to understood as the metaphor for the Church that Paul used to describe how believers relate to one another in the service of the Lord. Your explanation is internally conflicted. If the "tribulation saints" are new covenant believers then they have the Holy Spirit within. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 If the "tribulation saints" have the Holy Spirit within, they are a part of the body of Christ. You say they are not a part of the Church. So, in effect, you're saying that the body of Christ is not part of the Church? 5 hours ago, shiloh357 said: That is not a new classification of believers. There are consequences to rejecting the Gospel and while they are forgiven, they still incur those consequences. It's no different than a serial killer getting saved in prison on death row. He still faces the consequences of the past, but is not any less of a believer than we are. Irrelevant. He is still a part of the one body of Christ through the one Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, Last Daze said: Your explanation is internally conflicted. No, it is not. Quote If the "tribulation saints" are new covenant believers then they have the Holy Spirit within. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 If the "tribulation saints" have the Holy Spirit within, they are a part of the body of Christ. You say they are not a part of the Church. So, in effect, you're saying that the body of Christ is not part of the Church? No, the "body of Christ" is a description of the Church. Tribulation believers are part of God's family, but not Christ's body, nor are they part of the Bride of Christ. The term "body of Christ" is a metaphor that explains the relationship of the members of the Church to each other in their service to the Lord. Those titles do not belong to the Tribulation believers who get saved during that time period. Quote Irrelevant. He is still a part of the one body of Christ through the one Spirit. No he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Duke Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 255 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 92 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2018 37 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: As Sojo pointed out, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot argue that the whole Church must go through the Tribulation, but create an exception for the those in the Church that have already passed away. We are being criticized for that very thing, but for some reason, when you make the same basic argument it is acceptable. Where does it say the whole church must go through the Great Tribulation including the dead? Christ is the one that said the living go through tribulation. The Great Tribulation happens to those that are living the those days. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, Brother Duke said: Where does it say the whole church must go through the Great Tribulation including the dead? Christ is the one that said the living go through tribulation. The Great Tribulation happens to those that are living the those days. If the argument being made to me by some others is that EVERY believer is part of the body of Christ and we cannot have "special" parts of the Body of Christ who escape the Tribulation, then it stands to reason that all of those who died in Christ must be raised from the dead to go through the Tribulation. I mean that is the absurdity we are left with if we follow that argument through to it's logical conclusion and apply any semblance of internal consistency to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2018 25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: No, the "body of Christ" is a description of the Church. Tribulation believers are part of God's family, but not Christ's body, nor are they part of the Bride of Christ. The term "body of Christ" is a metaphor that explains the relationship of the members of the Church to each other in their service to the Lord. Those titles do not belong to the Tribulation believers who get saved during that time period. I for one would like to see scripture that proves this. There are profound scriptures that refute such notions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said: You cannot have it both ways: if the church must go through the Tribulation, then to exclude the dead believers would be to exclude them from "the privilege of suffering for the Lord during that time". If those who died in Christ have escaped the Tribulation, then why not those living in Christ now? BTW: if folks are concerned about "being a martyr for the Lord" in times of Tribulation, why wait? There's enough trouble and "hot spots" around the world as we speak where if someone wants to die for the Lord, you can fly there and soon find yourselves suffering with those under intense persecution and death. You don't need to wait for the Tribulation! 2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said: No problem; one thing those who oppose Pre-Trib don't think about is that a very small fraction of the entire Church would go through the Tribulation if Post or Mid-trib were correct. Most of the Church, from Pentecost until those believers who have just passed on, are pretty much missing the Tribulation! And since many complain that "you cannot have a bunch of resurrections count as one", then where's the resurrection of the Church to the Tribulation in Scripture? Doesn't Scripture say that man would "die once, but after this, the judgment"? So, either God would have to raise a ton of dead believers who were safe with him in order to go suffer (pretty much eliminating the chance of anyone being free of pain or suffering after they go to be with the Lord), or the only ones who get the "privilege" of suffering in the tribulation are a small percentage of believers who were not "more holy" than those who passed, nor more wicked than those who have gone on, but because God made an arbitrary decision that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Seems easier for folks to believe that than to believe that God removes the whole church, dead and alive, from the grave and from the face of the Earth, and classes those who come to faith during the Tribulation as not being part of the Church. Go figure. This mentality reveals a very shallow understanding of the Christian life. We are to die daily to the things of this world. We are to live a life of daily martyrdom. This was true for the first century believers and pertains to all believers. Forfeiting one's physical life for the sake of the gospel is a natural expression of a spiritual reality, if indeed it is your spiritual reality. He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. John 12:25 "Being a martyr for the Lord" as you say should be an every day experience for the believer. The time of great tribulation will serve to reveal who acted on the teachings of Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: As Sojo pointed out, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot argue that the whole Church must go through the Tribulation, but create an exception for the those in the Church that have already passed away. It seem that you too have a shallow understanding of the Christian life as does Sojo. Martyrdom is expected of all believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: If the argument being made to me by some others is that EVERY believer is part of the body of Christ and we cannot have "special" parts of the Body of Christ who escape the Tribulation, then it stands to reason that all of those who died in Christ must be raised from the dead to go through the Tribulation. I mean that is the absurdity we are left with if we follow that argument through to it's logical conclusion and apply any semblance of internal consistency to it. Ah, the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum where an argument, the church goes through GT, is taken to ridiculous proportions; all the dead must be raised to suffer GT, and using this to criticize the results and the initial argument. This is not proof of anything, its just rhetoric. The truth of GT is the existing church, alive at the time the 70th week begins, will enter the last week and endure to the 2nd coming, sometime in the latter part of the week. You'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 44 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The term "body of Christ" is a metaphor that explains the relationship of the members of the Church to each other in their service to the Lord. The term "body of Christ" goes well beyond that metaphor. While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Matthew 26:26 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:54 The body of Christ is Truth and those who walk in the truth (eat His flesh) and receive forgiveness (drink His blood) are a part of His body that will be raised up on the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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