The Olivet Discourse

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Once the Gospel has been preached the world over, Her job on earth is done, her work on earth is done

The body of Christ must be brought to maturity, to the unity of the faith.  How do you think that's going to happen?

• For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  Ephesians 4:12-13

Only after the body of Christ has been brought to maturity, to the unity of the faith will the following rapture occur:

• And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.  The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.  But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”  Mark 4:26-29
• Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

Yes, there is a reason for the body of Christ to be here during the tribulation.  Follow Jesus and endure to the end.

[Montana Marv]

21 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The body of Christ must be brought to maturity, to the unity of the faith.  How do you think that's going to happen?

• For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  Ephesians 4:12-13

Only after the body of Christ has been brought to maturity, to the unity of the faith will the following rapture occur:

• And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.  The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.  But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”  Mark 4:26-29
• Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

Yes, there is a reason for the body of Christ to be here during the tribulation.  Follow Jesus and endure to the end.

The end is when one dies. All who have died before us will miss what you believe. So were they not mature. So then what you are saying is that we believers now are the ones who make the Bride mature and not those who have gone before us.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The end is when one dies. All who have died before us will miss what you believe. So were they not mature. So then what you are saying is that we believers now are the ones who make the Bride mature and not those who have gone before us.

• For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  Ephesians 4:12-13

[Daniel 11:36]

"Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16"

 

This passage of scripture is about unbelievers during the coming tribulation period

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And since NO FLESH can enter Heaven and it was not END TIMES why would they not stay on earth, I mean this argument is NONSENSICAL at its core.  Jesus still had to be born, so you expected Noah and hos family to be taken to Heaven so a no one would be left on earth to repopulate the earth? 

Now explain to me why the Church needs to stay on the earth? Its business on earth is finished, you guys refuse to use one iota of logic here brother. You refuse to see the Rev. 19 Marriage and return with Christ, you just put blinders on and pretend it doesn't happen. Lets pretend the Jewish Wedding Tradition isn't 7 Days which = 7 years. Lets pretend Armageddon isn't the Marriage Supper etc. etc. etc. 

For starters you are comparing apples and oranges, secondly, you get it all wrong anyway, both were taken out of the way before the Wrath came in each instance. The ark = THEIR Heaven.............the Fleeing the CITY = them being TAKEN AWAY........Raptured out of trouble. No one really thinks God was going to take anyone to Heaven in those days, thus the whole promise is false and conflated on purpose. 

I will be waiting on the EXPLANATION for why the Church should remain on earth. 

Why do you ignore what I say? Both Noah and Lot were taken the DAY wrath began. Each time there was no repentance available for those on the earth or the city because the time of wrath was upon them, the utter destruction of the enemies. This is the model. At the end of the age the believers will be taken on the day wrath begins when no repentance is available and the enemies are utterly destroyed.

It's not me that doesn't get it. No one is 'raptured' out of 'trouble' but we all are saved from wrath. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Because it doesn't make sense when compared to Scripture, Diaste.

 

Yes; they were taken well before the Lord even touched the earth in both those instances.  God got Noah and his family into the ark and sealed the door before the waters got to them. Lot was well out of range of the city before God "nuked" it. 

As concerning "wrath": Revelation 6 points out: those on the earth during the first 6 Seal Judgments cry out in fear that the wrath of God and the Lamb has come:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” "(Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

You might be able to argue the first 5 seals aren't the wrath of God, but with the 6th, that can no longer be successfully maintained by even the staunchest believer in mid/ post-trib eschatology.

 

God gave them time to repent just before the delivery of the final judgment, which is the model when you consider that the Ultimate judgment on earth is when Jesus Christ comes back at Armageddon to wipe out the wicked. In Noah's case, they had 100 years,  while in lot's case, Abraham bargained for the cities if the Lord found only 10 righteous men. 

And if there is "no repentance available" during the time of God's wrath, then the following cannot happen:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”" (Revelation 7: 9-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

The Lord harvests a tremendous harvest during the time that you claim "no repentance (is) available".

And this passage from Revelation 14 is thus rendered pointless according to you:

" And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” (Revelation 14:6-7, NASB, emphasis mine)

If the human race were damned without any mercy during the Tribulation, why would the Lord even bother having an angel preach the Gospel?

The Tribulation is far more than the mere "trouble" you make it out to be, Diaste. God didn't make Noah grow gills or turn Lot into asbestos. He removed them from the judgments, and kept them from them.

In Noah's case, he was literally suspended in the water between heaven and earth.

Conflating 'great tribulation' with wrath, and equating the last week with wrath leads to false conclusions.

The entire pretrib doctrine is based this false equivalency. But you don't see it. It seems better to believe this I suppose. 

The problem with pretrib doctrine is not in the scriptures, it's in the desire for an acceptable outcome, at least for those so affected. 

How do you explain the church avoiding 7 years of wrath while condemning an untold number of believers in Jesus to the very wrath from which pretrib promises an escape?

In other words, the church gets raptured and avoids the wrath of God, but the poor souls who come to Jesus during the 70th week, immediately upon being born again, suffer the wrath of God.

Not possible if 'we are not appointed to wrath'. 

Is God not telling the truth, or the doctrine?

Maybe you think the current church is special and is granted special treatment. 

I guess pretrib doctrine must think tribulation saints are a lesser group not under the protection of 'we are not appointed to wrath'.

In any case the doctrine fails at the foundation. But you go ahead and believe what you like, that's your privilege and burden.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

As concerning "wrath": Revelation 6 points out: those on the earth during the first 6 Seal Judgments cry out in fear that the wrath of God and the Lamb has come:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up,

You might be able to argue the first 5 seals aren't the wrath of God, but with the 6th, that can no longer be successfully maintained by even the staunchest believer in mid/ post-trib eschatology.

 

I have no clue what you are pointing out here.

Its obvious the wrath of God and the Lamb begins at the 6th seal. Meaning what comes before is not God's wrath. Which would be most of the last week.

Meaning the start of the week right up to wrath, is not wrath, supporting what many of us say in regards to the rapture; that the church is taken out before the wrath of God, at the 6th seal, deep into the last week, after enduring the trials of the beast.

"You might be able to argue the first 5 seals aren't the wrath of God, but with the 6th, that can no longer be successfully maintained by even the staunchest believer in mid/ post-trib eschatology"

 Only pretrib doctrine would argue against your above quote as it defies a bedrock premise. 

What is your point?

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

you guys refuse to use one iota of logic here brother.

Is a comment like this necessary? Honestly, how would know 'not one iota of logic' was used? Did you ever ask how we got there? No. You did not. 

Just because someone has arrived at a different conclusion than yours does not require logic to be abrogated. 

And who is proofing your logical acumen? Maybe you think perfect logic is inherent in your cognitive skills?

I have seen the evidence and reject your conclusions. Why are you trying so hard to convince others that you resort to disparaging remarks?

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16"

 

This passage of scripture is about unbelievers during the coming tribulation period

To all of those who do not understand that many of the chapters in the book of Revelation are "Parenthetical Citations" THEY MISS the big picture, they really expect to see Revelation in order, when its not. Chapter 14 is the same way, it covers the RAPTURE............then it covers the SECOND COMING. 

Rev. 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Jesus), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap (Rapture, Jesus is IN THE AIR, on a Cloud, he calls us unto him): for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth WAS REAPED. 

 

17 And ANOTHER angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city (Armageddon), and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is very clear to me. Jesus is the Son of man, HE THRUSTS IN THE CYCLE to Rapture the Church in verses 14-16. BUT......In verses 17-20 we see that its an ANGEL that thrusts in the cycle to gather the WICKED into the Wine-press. (Rev. 16:19) 

This clearly shows a Rapture by Jesus and then an END TIME Harvest of the Wicked. 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why do you ignore what I say? Both Noah and Lot were taken the DAY wrath began. Each time there was no repentance available for those on the earth or the city because the time of wrath was upon them, the utter destruction of the enemies. This is the model. At the end of the age the believers will be taken on the day wrath begins when no repentance is available and the enemies are utterly destroyed.

It's not me that doesn't get it. No one is 'raptured' out of 'trouble' but we all are saved from wrath. 

Because its a non sequitur to equate END TIME EVENTS with events that happened before God was finished with mankind on earth and to try and replace Israel with the Church. The 70th Week is about Israel's JUDGMENT, Israel will be PROTECTED for 1260 days, the Wrath of God lasts 1260 days, although I see that as irrelevant. The Church is not Israel in the end anyway. 

The church will be in Heaven marrying the Lamb just like Rev. 19 says. Yes, its you that doesn't get it brother, you have your mind made up so Rev. 19 doesn't even exist.