The Olivet Discourse

[iamlamad]

22 minutes ago, Spock said:

Hey LA,

Many pre tribbers believe the rapture will be done in secret, a moment in time. No one knows....

But, If the rapture is the 6th seal, like many believe, how do they recognize this as the wrath of Jesus/God if it is secret? 

Thanks

Spock, there is NO WAY anyone could read of the events of the 6th seal and think it will be "secret." Forget the word "secret." It should never be assciated with the rapture of the church. How could something be "secret" if half the world's population suddenly disappears? That could NEVER be kept "secret." Anyway it is going to be a VERY NOISY event with a trumpet sound and a loud shout. 

The rapture must come a moment before the earthquake. John did not see it so did not write of it. Of course that was God's plan. The truth is, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of His wrath.

[Spock]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:16 AM, iamlamad said:

Spock, there is NO WAY anyone could read of the events of the 6th seal and think it will be "secret." Forget the word "secret." It should never be assciated with the rapture of the church. How could something be "secret" if half the world's population suddenly disappears? That could NEVER be kept "secret." Anyway it is going to be a VERY NOISY event with a trumpet sound and a loud shout. 

The rapture must come a moment before the earthquake. John did not see it so did not write of it. Of course that was God's plan. The truth is, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of His wrath.

So I suppose you believe the AC and FP will explain this away with signs and wonders, because if the whole world knew this was God/Christ’s wrath yet for many this is not enough to convince them to see the light, something or someone has power to persuade. 

[Spock]

On 6/25/2018 at 1:53 PM, Diaste said:

That's funny, Jesus related end time events to the days of Noah.

No one is replacing Israel with the church, Israel and the church are one and the same.

If God's wrath is 1260 days then pretrib is now midtrib.

Rev 19 does not say that marriage supper occurred years prior. You made that up.

Rev 19 is real, your understanding is off.

Hey brother,

This is how I’m interpreting the Noah reference in Matt 24. Let me know what you think. 

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,b but the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

It seems the similarity to both Noah and second coming is the earth dwellers are surprised (unaware) Judgment was coming. 

Even though they were watching Noah build this arc the flood  still seems to come up them suddenly (unaware it says).  I think it will be like that at the second coming.  Even though all hell  is breaking loose on earth, the people will still be “caught with their pants down” by the suddenness of the reentry to the planet of our Lord.  

When I think about history, it seems like people have a way of getting on with doing what they have to do no matter hits them....world war, A-bomb, Pearl Harbor, some tsunami, earthquake......whatever.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

So I suppose you believe the AC and FP will explain this away with signs and wonders, because if the whole world knew this was God/Christ’s wrath yet for many this is not enough to convince them to see the light, something or someone has power to persuade. 

Without a doubt they will say it was aliens from outer space that took the "trouble-makers" off the planet.

It will not be long after the start of the DAY until most people on the earth will know they are under God's wrath. John as much as tells us this: They get angry at God.

[Spock]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Without a doubt they will say it was aliens from outer space that took the "trouble-makers" off the planet.

It will not be long after the start of the DAY until most people on the earth will know they are under God's wrath. John as much as tells us this: They get angry at God.

So are you 100% convinced the 6th seal is NOT the same thing as Matt 24:29-21?  I see two differences:

1. Angels gathering (no mention angels gather at rapture)

2. Blood Red moon (6th) vs total dark moon

Is this enough to say they are are 100% different events?  Is there more I’m missing? 

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, Spock said:

So are you 100% convinced the 6th seal is NOT the same thing as Matt 24:29-21?  I see two differences:

1. Angels gathering (no mention angels gather at rapture)

2. Blood Red moon (6th) vs total dark moon

Is this enough to say they are are 100% different events?  Is there more I’m missing? 

One SHOULD be wise enough to know they are different because the 6th seal is in chapter 6 and to be "after the tribulation" would have to be in chapter 19.

If that is not enough to convince someone, the signs are different. A blood red moon MUST BE SEEN. A darkened sun and moon speak of darkness.

Yes, two totally different signs for two different events coming over 7 years apart.

[Spock]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

One SHOULD be wise enough to know they are different because the 6th seal is in chapter 6 and to be "after the tribulation" would have to be in chapter 19.

If that is not enough to convince someone, the signs are different. A blood red moon MUST BE SEEN. A darkened sun and moon speak of darkness.

Yes, two totally different signs for two different events coming over 7 years apart.

So, you are assuming “after the tribulation” means after 7 years.

Some scholars see it this way:

tribulation is first 3.5 years

great tribulation is next 3.5 years

Therefore, it may be possible to interpret Jesus’s words in Matt 24:29 when he says “after the tribulation” to mean after the first 3.5 years. 

Thoughts? 

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, Spock said:

So, you are assuming “after the tribulation” means after 7 years.

Some scholars see it this way:

tribulation is first 3.5 years

great tribulation is next 3.5 years

Therefore, it may be possible to interpret Jesus’s words in Matt 24:29 when he says “after the tribulation” to mean after the first 3.5 years. 

Thoughts? 

These are "titles." Did Jesus use such a title? 

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

In the King James it LOOKS like He used a title. In the Greek - who knows? But notice, this is after ALL the "tribulation," "great" included. 

We should be using "the 70th week" for the entire week. John wrote in the first chapter, "I John in "the Tribulation."  He considered HIS TIME as "the tribulation." I think God considers the entire church age as "tribulation." 

What is in the first half? The trumpets. They are judgments, not "tribulation." Satan does not turn on the remnant until after the midpoint. And then comes great tribulation. 

When Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days" He then speaks of HIS COMING: which we find in Rev. 19. This parallels Revelation with the 70th week (including the days of GT) ENDED at the 7th vial. "After the tribulation of those days" would then be after the 7th vial is poured out.

[Revelation Man]

On 6/22/2019 at 10:12 AM, iamlamad said:

Good point: I am convinced that "at the last trump" will indeed be the final trumpet sound of the church age - which will end at the pretrib rapture. From then on, it is Day of the Lord time. Included in the Day of the Lord will be the 70th week. All this will be before ANY of the 7 trumpet judgments. "The last trump" is in no way a judgment: it is to call up the church. 

The Last Trump is seen here {Rev. 4:1 Jesus calls the Church home.....After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We were given the whole history of the world in Leviticus 23, as God is want to do He gives us a pattern.

Spring Feasts: 1.) Feast of Passover {Jesus fulfilled this}....2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread {Jesus was without sin}....4.) Feast of First-fruits { Jesus was raised from the dead}.

The Harvest: {Church Age} 4.) The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/The Harvest { The Church Harvests souls for the Master who will one day reap them}

Fall Feasts 5.) Feast of Trumpets { A Trumpet/Shofar was sounded to end the Harvest and sound the Notice that Atonement was nigh at hand. Thus the Church Age is ENDED or Jesus calls the Church home at the Last Trump which only means Harvest is ended.  And now Atonement for Israel is at hand. }

6.) Feast of Atonement { Israel must REPENT before the 70th week ends.}

7.) Feast of Tabernacle { Tabernacle means to Dwell with God, and Jesus reigns from Jerusalem for 1000 years, so Israel TABERNACLES with God }

So Paul was indeed not speaking about a Trump of Revelation, he was speaking about the Trumpet voice of Jesus that ends the Harvest just like the Trump of the Feast, except this one will be the Last Trumpet Feast, from this point on Jesus will be present with the Church forevermore, and he will soon rule on earth from Jerusalem. 

On 6/22/2019 at 10:16 AM, iamlamad said:

Spock, there is NO WAY anyone could read of the events of the 6th seal and think it will be "secret." Forget the word "secret." It should never be assciated with the rapture of the church. How could something be "secret" if half the world's population suddenly disappears? That could NEVER be kept "secret." Anyway it is going to be a VERY NOISY event with a trumpet sound and a loud shout. 

The rapture must come a moment before the earthquake. John did not see it so did not write of it. Of course that was God's plan. The truth is, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of His wrath.

The Rapture comes Pre 70th week. Those "RAPTURED" die, that is why it will be called an epidemic of sorts. The 6th Seal is opened at the same time as the first 5 Seals. 

The First 5 Seals just release the Anti-Christ to become the Beast over a 42 month period via 1.) Conquering  for 42 Months 2.) War (take away peace/ for 42 Months) 3.) Famine 4.) Death the Grave and Sickness. 5. Martyrs of the Saints.....all over a 42 Month Period, so they are opened, Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, THEN BOOM the 6th Seal is also opened, those first 5 Seals need no time buffer to come to pass, they are 42 Months in coming to pass, so the First 5 Seals and the 6th Seal are all opened AT THE EXACT SAME TIME !! On day 1260. Thus the Dragon is cast out on day 1260. Thus the Day of the Lord comes on day 1260.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Last Trump is seen here {Rev. 4:1 Jesus calls the Church home.....After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We were give the whole history of the world in Leviticus 23, as God is want to do He gives us a pattern.

Spring Feasts: 1.) Feast of Passover {Jesus fulfilled this}....2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread {Jesus was without sin}....4.) Feast of First-fruits { Jesus was raised from the dead}.

The Harvest: {Church Age} 4.) The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/The Harvest { The Church Harvests souls for the Master who will one day reap them}

Fall Feasts 5.) Feast of Trumpets { A Trumpet/Shofar was sounded to end the Harvest and sound the Notice that Atonement was nigh at hand. Thus the Church Age is ENDED or Jesus calls the Church home at the Last Trump which only means Harvest is ended.  And now Atonement for Israel is at hand. }

6.) Feast of Atonement { Israel must REPENT before the 70th week ends.

7. {Feast of Tabernacle { Tabernacle means to Dwell with God, and Jesus reigns from Jerusalem for 1000 years, so Israel TABERNACLES with God }

So Paul was indeed not speaking about a Trump of Revelation, he was speaking about the Trumpet voice of Jesus that ends the Harvest just like the Trump of the Feast. except this one will be the Last Trumpet Feast, from this point on Jesus will be present with the Church forevermore, and he will soon rule on earth from Jerusalem. 

The Rapture comes Pre 70th week. Those "RAPTURED" die, that is why it will be called an epidemic of sorts. The 6th Seal is opened at the same time as the first 5 Seals. 

The First 5 Seals just release the Anti-Christ to become the Beast over a 42 month period via 1.) Conquering  for 42 Months 2.) War (take away peace/ for 42 Months) 3.) Famine 4.) Death the Grave and Sickness. 5. Martyrs of the Saints.....all over a 42 Month Period, so they are opened, Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, THEN BOOM the 6th Seal is also opened, those first 5 Seals eed no time buffer to come to pass, they are 42 Months in coming to pass, so the First 5 Seals and the 6th Seal are all opened AT THE EXACT SAME TIME !! On day 1260. Thus the Dragon is cast out on day 1260. Thus the Dy o the Lord comes on day 1260.

Why don’t you consider the 4 horsemen of Rev 6 to be the same as the 4 horsemen of Zechariah 6?