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The Olivet Discourse


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1 hour ago, Spock said:

I don’t see the rapture in v 31 LD because here the ANGELS are gathering the elect. I don’t see the ANGELS doing any gathering in 1 Thess 4 or 1 Cor 15, the two main passages that show us the rapture. 

I see v31 as a SECOND COMING passage, meaning....Jesus is returning on earth to mop up at Armageddon and to set up his MK.  Raptured Saints already in Heaven for some time. 

Thats how I see it my brother. (Sorry, I just entered this thread and am going one page at a time, not reading it all first.) 

spock

I can't find anywhere that the return of Jesus is referred to in the plural.  There is no mentioning of the "comings of Christ" or "returns of Jesus" mentioned in scripture, unless I missed something.

1 Corinthians 15:23 states that those who are Christ's are made immortal at His coming.

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7 hours ago, Spock said:

Two groups there.....

1. Woman.....Remnant Israel that heeded Jesus’ words, and ran to mountains in Jordan

2. Offspring of the woman... those who keep the commands of Yeshua.......sounds to me like it could be both the Trib Saints (post rapture converts to Christ)  and the 144,000 Messianic Jews

It is Two Groups, but people conflate who the Remnant is which points to a Pre trib rapture also. 

Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So the serpent {Satan} sends the Anti-Christ/his army to kill the Jews {the army is the flood}, but the earth helps her {like in Egypt, a wall of fire etc.} and swallowed the flood {protects Israel}. 

This makes Satan ANGRY that he could not get at the Woman {Israel}, so this can't be THE REMNANT, those Jews who chose Wickedness are not Israel, they chose not to accept Jesus, thus not to Flee Judea, they chose Hellenization so to speak like Jason during Antiochus' time. They will no doubt perish, so these who Flee Judea can't be THE REMNANT !! The Remnant of HER SEED..........Who was Israel's SEED ? Well Jesus was her SEED that should come to take away the Sins of the whole world according to scriptures. 

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

So THE SEED was Jesus so who was THE REMNANT in Rev. 12:17 ? Well the Dragon/Serpent could not get at THE WOMAN {Israel} who fled to Petra, so who can the Remnant be but the REMNANT CHURCH ? And why is it called a Remnant which means a small part of something that is LEFT ? Because it is the SMALL PART of the Church that is on earth, while we see the Church in  Heaven in Rev. chapters 4, 5 and 7 and even in Rev. 19.

You see, it can't be the Remnant Jews, there is no such thing as per this passage, the Jews being spoken of have Repented  and are now ALL ISRAEL {144,000}. The Anti-Christ has no problem getting at the 2/3 of the Jews who don't repent but guess what, they don't keep the Word of Christ so it can't be them, the rejected Jesus, and it can't be the Jews who fled Judea because Satan is ANGRY he can't get at them, so it can ONLY BE the Remnant Church on earth !! Post Trib is dead with this passage, but they choose to ignore it. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Question for you RM:  Do you believe the scriptures reveal that the Remnant Jews who will ultimately be saved and accept Yeshua as their Messiah actually  believe in Yeshua as the Messiah before they left Judea to go to Jordan?   Or do you see them coming to believe this when He returns? 

Of course, that is why they Flee Judea, Malachi 4:5-5 tells us this, that is where my Daniel 12 understanding of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 comes from. I see Israel repenting at the 1335, what a Blessing. Allow me to run it down in Zechariah.................

{WE ARE HERE right now} Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Israel then Repents during the 70th Week !!

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened {Jesus' blood} to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

So, Israel REPENTS, then in that day God will start BLESSING THEM {The 1335---Blessed is he who comes to the 1335}. He cuts off the false prophets in the land of Israel who for APPEARANCES SAKE  wear robes to deceive, and they will admit they are not prophets, else they will be slain. So there is a Turning back to God BEFORE the Anti-Christ shows up in Zechariah chapter 14.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

These above are the ones that Flee Judea for Petra/Jordan. Next comes the Anti-Christ !!

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The above is the Anti-Christ coming against Jerusalem, sacking the city, and thus becoming THE BEAST. 

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations,{Armageddon} as when he fought in the day of battle.  4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Jesus' Second Coming ABOVE: So as we see, Israel REPENTS in Zechariah 12:10, are Blessed in 13:1, 2/3 refuse to repent but 1/3 are tried and proven faithfull, they HEED Jesus/God and Flee Judea, then in Zechariah 14:1-2 the Anti-Christ and his minions Conquer Jerusalem, and thus slay the 2/3 who did not repent or FLEE Judea, then Jesus shows up on Mt. Zion and takes care of business, Amen. 

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On 6/14/2018 at 5:24 PM, Willa said:

Matt. 24-25.  When reading a passage we look to see who is being spoken to.  In this case the apostles are asking Jesus questions about the Temple and its destruction, the coming of the Son of Man, and the signs of the end of the age.  Jesus answers their question in the rest of the passage.

Mat 24:1   Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way. His disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. Mat 24:2   But he answered them, “You see all of these things, don’t you? Most certainly I tell you, there will not be left here one stone on another, that will not be thrown down.”

Mat 24:3  As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answers these questions: the first two of which pertain to the Temple, His coming again to Jerusalem, and to the end of the age.  The latter affects all of us but the first two questions were specific to Jerusalem.   

Often the principles of a message have universal applications, such as that we all should remain ready and expecting the Lord's return at any time.  We should be full of the Spirit and serving Him.  But it is true that any passage should be read in context.  

By the way, the earliest Christians were all Jewish believers.  

I’m reviewing this thread and So far, this has been the best post on this thread.  I think everyone should read it again. 

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On 3/5/2019 at 12:30 PM, Last Daze said:

I can't find anywhere that the return of Jesus is referred to in the plural.  There is no mentioning of the "comings of Christ" or "returns of Jesus" mentioned in scripture, unless I missed something.

1 Corinthians 15:23 states that those who are Christ's are made immortal at His coming.

Of course you are missing something! You miss two comings, you miss two different times the cosmic signs will be seen...the list could probably go on. 

There are verses that prove two comings, but due to preconceptions, many cannot see two comings.

If we study Paul's coming of our Lord, it is when people are saying "peace and safety" and there is NO ONE going to be saying or even thinking that when the 70th week of Daniel is finished. At that time people are going to be sitting in total darkness, gnawing their tongues for pain, wondering what is coming next. By that time, earth's population will probably be millions, not billions. Almost every  human left alive will be shaking in their boots, so to speak, paralyzed with fear.  In spite of the fear, the armies of the world will gather in the darkness to prepare for Armageddon.

Next, Paul is clear, HIS gathering will come JUST before the Day of the Lord. We find the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, which in Revelation is a LONG WAY from chapter 19! In time it is over 7 years away. 

OF COURSE there will be two more comings. 

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, NO MEMBER of the church would make it to heaven for the marriage and supper. So of course you are missing something.

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, there would be NO SHEEP at the judgment of the nations: all the sheep would have resurrection bodies. Your theory would ROB God of any righteous person left in natural bodies to repopulate the earth. 

It is very clear that you have missed something. This is why multiplied millions of believers today are PREtrib.

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On 3/5/2019 at 1:30 PM, Last Daze said:

I can't find anywhere that the return of Jesus is referred to in the plural.  There is no mentioning of the "comings of Christ" or "returns of Jesus" mentioned in scripture, unless I missed something.

1 Corinthians 15:23 states that those who are Christ's are made immortal at His coming.

Study the word PAROUSIA. This might help

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26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you are missing something! You miss two comings, you miss two different times the cosmic signs will be seen...the list could probably go on. 

There are verses that prove two comings, but due to preconceptions, many cannot see two comings.

If we study Paul's coming of our Lord, it is when people are saying "peace and safety" and there is NO ONE going to be saying or even thinking that when the 70th week of Daniel is finished. At that time people are going to be sitting in total darkness, gnawing their tongues for pain, wondering what is coming next. By that time, earth's population will probably be millions, not billions. Almost every  human left alive will be shaking in their boots, so to speak, paralyzed with fear.  In spite of the fear, the armies of the world will gather in the darkness to prepare for Armageddon.

Next, Paul is clear, HIS gathering will come JUST before the Day of the Lord. We find the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, which in Revelation is a LONG WAY from chapter 19! In time it is over 7 years away. 

OF COURSE there will be two more comings. 

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, NO MEMBER of the church would make it to heaven for the marriage and supper. So of course you are missing something.

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, there would be NO SHEEP at the judgment of the nations: all the sheep would have resurrection bodies. Your theory would ROB God of any righteous person left in natural bodies to repopulate the earth. 

It is very clear that you have missed something. This is why multiplied millions of believers today are PREtrib.

Hey LA,

Many pre tribbers believe the rapture will be done in secret, a moment in time. No one knows....

But, If the rapture is the 6th seal, like many believe, how do they recognize this as the wrath of Jesus/God if it is secret? 

Thanks

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40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you are missing something! You miss two comings, you miss two different times the cosmic signs will be seen...the list could probably go on. 

There are verses that prove two comings, but due to preconceptions, many cannot see two comings.

If we study Paul's coming of our Lord, it is when people are saying "peace and safety" and there is NO ONE going to be saying or even thinking that when the 70th week of Daniel is finished. At that time people are going to be sitting in total darkness, gnawing their tongues for pain, wondering what is coming next. By that time, earth's population will probably be millions, not billions. Almost every  human left alive will be shaking in their boots, so to speak, paralyzed with fear.  In spite of the fear, the armies of the world will gather in the darkness to prepare for Armageddon.

Next, Paul is clear, HIS gathering will come JUST before the Day of the Lord. We find the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, which in Revelation is a LONG WAY from chapter 19! In time it is over 7 years away. 

OF COURSE there will be two more comings. 

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, NO MEMBER of the church would make it to heaven for the marriage and supper. So of course you are missing something.

If Paul's rapture was at Armageddon, there would be NO SHEEP at the judgment of the nations: all the sheep would have resurrection bodies. Your theory would ROB God of any righteous person left in natural bodies to repopulate the earth. 

It is very clear that you have missed something. This is why multiplied millions of believers today are PREtrib.

 

26 minutes ago, Spock said:

Study the word PAROUSIA. This might help

Last trumpet on the last day.  This might help.

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Getting back to the OP of this thread, there are some very clear “JEWISH only words” uttered by Jesus that was obviously just for them (not church). V 16,20, and arguably 34.  In addition, all three questions asked Jesus from my perspective have nothing to do with the rapture. So why would anyone think Jesus would answer them with rapture talk? 

Also, can anyone find any clearly obvious reference to “Church words” that show Jesus was talking exclusively about the Church?  Because I can’t. 

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3 minutes ago, Spock said:

Getting back to the OP of this thread, there are some very clear “JEWISH only words” uttered by Jesus that was obviously just for them (not church). V 16,20, and arguably 34.  In addition, all three questions asked Jesus from my perspective have nothing to do with the rapture. So why would anyone think Jesus would answer them with rapture talk? 

Also, can anyone find any clearly obvious reference to “Church words” that show Jesus was talking exclusively about the Church?  Because I can’t. 

Very logical conclusion, Spock!

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6 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

 

Last trumpet on the last day.  This might help.

Good point: I am convinced that "at the last trump" will indeed be the final trumpet sound of the church age - which will end at the pretrib rapture. From then on, it is Day of the Lord time. Included in the Day of the Lord will be the 70th week. All this will be before ANY of the 7 trumpet judgments. "The last trump" is in no way a judgment: it is to call up the church. 

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