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FollowerOfTheWay

That an unlimited God had to be born here to die...

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Do you have any sense of rational logic about reality and how it works, and how God works? Do you really believe that an unlimited God had to be born on earth in order to die for our sins? Wasn´t there any other way to redeem us, and most of all: wasn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way? 

Do you really believe that the essence and meaning of reality is about the cross, and only about the cross? Do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it for that sake? Can´t you think outside your limitied frame of thinking, outside the box?

Isn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way for God to deal with sinners, instead of throwing them into hell for eternity? It doesn´t sound like an omniscient God.

If you can, you only have to think a bit for you to understand the erreous beliefs of Christianity, and all other religions.

God gave you intelligence. But I am afraid you are not using it.

Think about this if you dare to even think... 

...I feel a bit frustrated about the way Christians think - don´t ever contemplate anything: just believe and be saved.

 

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22 minutes ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Do you have any sense of rational logic about reality and how it works, and how God works? Do you really believe that an unlimited God had to be born on earth in order to die for our sins? Wasn´t there any other way to redeem us, and most of all: wasn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way? 

Do you really believe that the essence and meaning of reality is about the cross, and only about the cross? Do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it for that sake? Can´t you think outside your limitied frame of thinking, outside the box?

Isn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way for God to deal with sinners, instead of throwing them into hell for eternity? It doesn´t sound like an omniscient God.

If you can, you only have to think a bit for you to understand the erreous beliefs of Christianity, and all other religions.

God gave you intelligence. But I am afraid you are not using it.

Think about this if you dare to even think... 

...I feel a bit frustrated about the way Christians think - don´t ever contemplate anything: just believe and be saved.

 

So . . . . . . . .

People who believe differently than you do not "think?"  That's a pretty self-serving way of trying to solidify your own belief.

Jesus' necessary sacrifice to redeem mankind is not a difficult concept to understand.  Unless you want to make it difficult.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:31 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

So . . . . . . . .

People who believe differently than you do not "think?"  That's a pretty self-serving way of trying to solidify your own belief.

Jesus' necessary sacrifice to redeem mankind is not a difficult concept to understand.  Unless you want to make it difficult.

 

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:31 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

Cobalt: "People who believe differently than you do not "think?"  That's a pretty self-serving way of trying to solidify your own belief."

Follower asks a profound and honest question and in Cobalt in typical fashion turns it into an insult!

JCobalt: "Jesus' necessary sacrifice to redeem mankind is not a difficult concept to understand.  Unless you want to make it difficult."

Christian Text Critic famously pointed out, "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose."  An honest seeker can start with the basic question: "How can anyone's death, even the death of God incarnate, have anything to do with my guilt?"  Does an irritated God say, "Somebody's got to pay for all this human sinning?  I'm gonna take it out on somebody!"  Once this caricature is rejected, the ethics of the correct explanation becomes ethically elusive.  Here are 4 points that help me embrace the mystery of Christ's atonement.

(1) God never authorized the barbaric ancient sacrifice system in the first place (Jeremiah 7:21-24).  Rather, He accommodated His revelation within the cultural biases of ancient Semites and worked within a sacrifice system.

(2) Jesus' atoning death is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.  All former Israelite animal sacrifices are viewed as types of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, which terminates a ritual system that God never wanted in the first place (Hebrews 9-10).

(3) Jesus' was born at the ideal time to end the sacrifice system                                                                                 (a) because the Jerusalem Temple would be destroyed within an generation and sacrifices there would  no longer be possible;                                                                                                                                                          (b) because the idea of atonement through human death was for the first time considered possible at Qumran and in reflection on the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters.  The acceptance of the possibility of vicarious human sacrifice created the possibility of applying the Suffering Servant Song of Isaiah 53 to the Messiah.  Prior to Jesus' arrival, Isaiah 53 was not applied to the coming of the Messiah.

(4) By the death of a sinless God incarnate, God takes responsibility for creating us with our inevitably sinful natures (Romans 11:32).  In so doing, God establishes a grace-based rather than a merit-based approach to reconciliation with Him.

 

 

Edited by MadHermit
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3 hours ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Do you have any sense of rational logic about reality and how it works, and how God works? Do you really believe that an unlimited God had to be born on earth in order to die for our sins? Wasn´t there any other way to redeem us, and most of all: wasn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way? 

Do you really believe that the essence and meaning of reality is about the cross, and only about the cross? Do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it for that sake? Can´t you think outside your limitied frame of thinking, outside the box?

Isn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way for God to deal with sinners, instead of throwing them into hell for eternity? It doesn´t sound like an omniscient God.

If you can, you only have to think a bit for you to understand the erreous beliefs of Christianity, and all other religions.

God gave you intelligence. But I am afraid you are not using it.

Think about this if you dare to even think... 

...I feel a bit frustrated about the way Christians think - don´t ever contemplate anything: just believe and be saved.

 

 

That's all we need now, a frustrated know it all who's going to show us the way.🤣

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Do you have any sense of rational logic about reality and how it works, and how God works? Do you really believe that an unlimited God had to be born on earth in order to die for our sins? Wasn´t there any other way to redeem us, and most of all: wasn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way? 

Do you really believe that the essence and meaning of reality is about the cross, and only about the cross? Do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it for that sake? Can´t you think outside your limitied frame of thinking, outside the box?

Isn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way for God to deal with sinners, instead of throwing them into hell for eternity? It doesn´t sound like an omniscient God.

If you can, you only have to think a bit for you to understand the erreous beliefs of Christianity, and all other religions.

God gave you intelligence. But I am afraid you are not using it.

Think about this if you dare to even think... 

...I feel a bit frustrated about the way Christians think - don´t ever contemplate anything: just believe and be saved.

 

 

You'll have to realize that to answer your foolishness, is to be perceived as foolish., but, if it would help you........

You have proven that you alone by yourself,  have enough foolishness controlling  your perspective,  for us all, according to your questions.

For example......You speak about "thinking outside the box", when at the same time you ARE the box, and Christians are standing outside of it, looking at you, feeling compassion for your chains and your darkness and your spiritual ignorance.

FOTW.....You are living on this earth, and you don't even know why you were born, or why you are breathing, or what your purpose in life should be..... while you are talking to people here who possess the Truth.....Know HIM........while you have no clue about this., at all.

But, i will tell you this.    The answer to your questions, will arrive, when you come to understand that the Cross is not a torture device, but rather its an act and gift of the most beautiful unconditional love that only God, "who is Love", could offer, as Grace.

You want to understand the "why" of the Cross?.......Then the first step is for you to understand that "no greater love or act of love exists, then to lay down your life for someone".

Now, start there, and once you comprehend the depth of this truth and the love found within it, then maybe the next questions you post here wont be so "boxed".

 

 

 

<B><

Edited by Behold
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4 hours ago, MadHermit said:

 

Follower asks a profound and honest question and in Cobalt in typical fashion turns it into an insult!

Christian Text Critic famously pointed out, "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose."  An honest seeker can start with the basic question: "How can anyone's death, even the death of God incarnate, have anything to do with my guilt?"  Does an irritated God say, "Somebody's got to pay for all this human sinning?  I'm gonna take it out on somebody!"  Once this caricature is rejected, the ethics of the correct explanation becomes ethically elusive.  Here are 4 points that help me embrace the mystery of Christ's atonement.

(1) God never authorized the barbaric ancient sacrifice system in the first place (Jeremiah 7:21-24).  Rather, He accommodated His revelation within the cultural biases of ancient Semites and worked within a sacrifice system.

(2) Jesus' atoning death is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.  All former Israelite animal sacrifices are viewed as types of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, which terminates a ritual system that God never wanted in the first place (Hebrews 9-10).

(3) Jesus' was born at the ideal time to end the sacrifice system                                                                                                                               (a) because the Jerusalem Temple would be destroyed within an generation and sacrifices there would  no longer be possible;                          (b) because the idea of atonement through human death was for the first time considered possible at Qumran and in reflection on the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters.  The acceptance of the possibility of vicarious human sacrifice created the possibility of applying the Suffering Servant Song of Isaiah 53 to the Messiah.  Prior to Jesus' arrival, Isaiah 53 was not applied to the coming of the Messiah.

(4) By the death of a sinless God incarnate, God takes responsibility for creating us with our inevitably sinful natures (Romans 11:32).  In so doing, God establishes a grace-based rather than a merit-based approach to reconciliation with Him.

 

I see you still don't know how to use the quote function.  So I inserted your post for you.  You're welcome.

It is an insult to point out that a seeker who tells others they do not think because they believe differently is self-serving?  I don't think so.  besides, what does that matter to you?  You insult people in every single post and think nothing of it.  All this while continually claiming how spiritually superior you are.  If you were as advanced as you continually claim to be, you would not be insulting people.

The Gospel of Jesus is so simple a 5 year-old understands it.  It's people that gum it up by adding junk to it.  Works.  Legalism.  Holiness.  Sabbath-keeping.  Tongues.  All inventions of people who think Jesus needs help when it comes to saving them.  Since Jesus Himself proclaims that His work was finished when he died on the cross, I don't think He needs our help.  If He does, He isn't God.

1.  God authorized the sacrificial system and instituted it at Mt. Sinai or He would not have commanded the Israelites to observe it and obey it.

2.  I don't know where you get that.  It certainly is not something you learned in Pentecostal, or even Charismatic teachings.  Even Charismatics are not foolish enough to mis-characterize the Law that way.  Charismatics completely screw up eschatology, but they don't jack with the past.  Well, except people like Bill Johnson and C. Peter Wagner.

3.  Jesus came at the time when God appointed Him to come.  Qumran or the Maccabeans have nothing to do with it, any more than we can somehow affect when Christ returns in any way.  That is according to God's time table, not ours.  It had nothing to do with the Essenes.  Or a Jewish revolt.

4.  Mankind was not created with a sinful nature.  We acquired that sinful nature when Adam & Eve disobeyed God in the Garden and disobeyed God's commands.  That isn't on God, it's on us.  We are responsible for our disobedience, not God. 

I don't know where you get this theology, but biblically-speaking, it has some severe problems.

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All one must do is to believe Paul’s Gospel.That Gospel is “ hidden from those that perish” Better go get some “ eyes to see”

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6 hours ago, Behold said:

 

You'll have to realize that to answer your foolishness, is to be perceived as foolish., but, if it would help you........

You have proven that you alone by yourself,  have enough foolishness controlling  your perspective,  for us all, according to your questions.

For example......You speak about "thinking outside the box", when at the same time you ARE the box, and Christians are standing outside of it, looking at you, feeling compassion for your chains and your darkness and your spiritual ignorance.

FOTW.....You are living on this earth, and you don't even know why you were born, or why you are breathing, or what your purpose in life should be..... while you are talking to people here who possess the Truth.....Know HIM........while you have no clue about this., at all.

But, i will tell you this.    The answer to your questions, will arrive, when you come to understand that the Cross is not a torture device, but rather its an act and gift of the most beautiful unconditional love that only God, "who is Love", could offer, as Grace.

You want to understand the "why" of the Cross?.......Then the first step is for you to understand that "no greater love or act of love exists, then to lay down your life for someone".

Now, start there, and once you comprehend the depth of this truth and the love found within it, then maybe the next questions you post here wont be so "boxed".

 

 

 

<B><

I can step outside my frame of thinking and I can believe exactly as you do, and I can jump out of that belief and know what I know.

You think I don´t know my purpose just because I don´t believe. And if I don´t know my purpose, it is better so, than just believing what my purpose is. I want to KNOW it.

If you insist on believing, you don´t need to do anything. But if you want to know, you got to do quite a lot. But you believers seem to not have the courage or energy to do the work that is necessary in order know, instead of just believing. 

What is more foolish than insisting on believing when you have the option to know?

I am here, trying to know something. I just don´t want to believe. I am a real spiritual truth seeker and contemplator. I am seeking more than you do and I will find things that you haven´t found. And I have already found greater things.

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2 hours ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

I can step outside my frame of thinking and I can believe exactly as you do, and I can jump out of that belief and know what I know.

You think I don´t know my purpose just because I don´t believe. And if I don´t know my purpose, it is better so, than just believing what my purpose is. I want to KNOW it.

If you insist on believing, you don´t need to do anything. But if you want to know, you got to do quite a lot. But you believers seem to not have the courage or energy to do the work that is necessary in order know, instead of just believing. 

What is more foolish than insisting on believing when you have the option to know?

I am here, trying to know something. I just don´t want to believe. I am a real spiritual truth seeker and contemplator. I am seeking more than you do and I will find things that you haven´t found. And I have already found greater things.

Since you don't believe, then you're not a Christian. Thus, you have no business trying to instruct anyone on a relationship with Jesus Christ, or anything else pertaining to Christianity for that matter.

Frankly, the only things you have found are deception, lies and vileness from Satan,  who is perpetrating the nonsense you claim is your "faith".

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13 hours ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Do you have any sense of rational logic about reality and how it works, and how God works? Do you really believe that an unlimited God had to be born on earth in order to die for our sins? Wasn´t there any other way to redeem us, and most of all: wasn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way? 

God is "unlimited?"   That is part of the fallacy of your premise.   God is not "unlimited."  God has limitations because  God is holy.  God cannot sin.  And under the category of "sin"  there are hundreds or even thousands of things God cannot do.  So God is not "unlimited."

Secondly, No God did not have to be born on earth and He did not have to die for our sins.   God was under no obligation to provide a plan of redemption for us. 

Could God have redeemed us a different way?  The answer is, "No."  Man's sin and rebellion against God had to be punished.  God had two options:  Either destroy us, or punish someone else in our place.   We deserved death, but Jesus took our place and satisfied God's justice on our behalf.  

To redeem the guilty and punish the wicked doesn't seem rational and from our perspective it makes no sense.   But God is not obligated to do what makes sense to us and we should be grateful that God did something that is really outside the realm of human reason.   He chose to punish Himself for our sins.   He took upon Himself, in teh Person of Jesus Christ a punishment that we deserved.   Who does that?   No human being would do such a thing. That is what makes it so wonderful.  He did have to do that.  But He did.

Quote

Do you really believe that the essence and meaning of reality is about the cross, and only about the cross? Do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it for that sake? Can´t you think outside your limitied frame of thinking, outside the box?

God created the universe and everything in it to show us His power and His glory.  

 

Quote

Isn´t there a more realistic and intelligent way for God to deal with sinners, instead of throwing them into hell for eternity? It doesn´t sound like an omniscient God.

His way of dealing with sinners is to redeem them.   He offers them a plan of redemption so that they don't have to go to Hell.  That's the part you don't seem to grasp.  

Here is the problem with your erroneous logic.   You criticize God as unintelligent if people go to Hell for eternity.   But then you criticize God as unintelligent if He pays for their sins, and offers them mercy, forgiveness, grace and an eternity in Heaven as a 100% free gift for the asking.   
 

Quote

 

God gave you intelligence. But I am afraid you are not using it.

Think about this if you dare to even think... 

...I feel a bit frustrated about the way Christians think - don´t ever contemplate anything: just believe and be saved.

 

The person who is not using their intelligence is the person who complains against God if people go to Hell and then complains that God is lacking in intelligence if He gives his life to save man from Hell and offers mercy.    It's basically a case of "I hate God if I go Hell" or "I hate God if He saves me from Hell."   So that is not a very rational line of argumentation.

So you have it as such that God really can't win no matter what He does.   You should probably spend a little more time coming up with a better, more cogent, reasonable argument that actually makes sense.

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