Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

That's fine, but how does one let go of the idea the diadochi divided the kingdom in the cardinal directions, and we are reminded of this at the beginning of this prophecy?

 

Where I think you get of course brother is yes, there were Four Kingdoms divided, but two pf the Kingdoms came to the fore eventually after the 301 BC Battle of Ipsus where the agree to divide the Kingdom. Thus the Seleucid Empire, even though it was actually "EAST" of all the other Dynasties, it was North of Egypt and thus was the King of the North Empire. Thus Egypt was the King of the South Empire, of Course Macedonia was the Northern most Kingdom, but the "PLAYERS" are the two most powerful via the region being spoken of, or the two most dominate at the time of any particular point of emphasis. 

So North, South, East and West are not relevant points as pertaining to the Kingdoms, it always about the Two most dominate powers of the Greek Kingdoms. It was always the Seleucid Empires vs. the Ptolemaic Empires (Egypt) no matter what lands came under their possessions etc. etc. Its was those two back and forth for decades. But the emphasis is still on the North and South, not on who they were per se. 

The last King to come out of one of the Four Generals Empires will be born in Greece, he will be an Assyrian, and he will thus be the King of the North because he is of the Fourth Beast (E.U.) and some King of the South will push at him, I don't see this as Egypt, because Daniel 11:43 says he Conquers Egypt, but in verse 40 hes already Conquered the KOTS, thus I think its going to be Turkey. God loves giving us riddles the World can not understand, but we can understand them if we quit looking through the worlds eyes at things. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Does it not make sense to keep this in mind when assaying the prophecy? 

Egypt is identified as the KOTS. This is one of the areas of the diadochi. A simple solution would be to interpret the KOTN with one of the diadochi hence, Lysimachus and Asia Minor.

During the Syrian wars wasn't the KOTS in control of Syria? Not sure but I think that is the case.

Anyway, my understanding allows for the beast to come from one of the diadochi, and since only one of the diadochi ruled the same region with the same capital city as the three kings before him, the beast comes from the Mideast; and that would not allow for him to be king of the north.

Unless I'm wrong and he is called king of the north. But just repeating the same thing over and over is not convincing.

Part of the problem is the continued insistence on Rome as a player. This is not supported by scripture. I can't take prophetic interpretation serious if its Roman based.

These Kingdoms shapes kept changing as allegiances and alliances morphed via time. The main thing is to understand there is always a KOTN and a KOTS, it matters not who they are or where, God does those things, the last King of the North will be an Assyrian Turk, born in Greece, he will come to power via the Fourth Beasts old territory. The KOTS will be South of him, it matters not who it is, it is what it is. Its a TRUE PROPHECY, and God is discreet until the End of time. Gods ways are not our ways, you and others look at it like, well wouldn't God be consistent,  wouldn't God keep it the same etc. etc. Well.......NO........God doesn't want the world to know His secrets, He is true but wise, His people will figure it our but only in the END TIMES, (NOW) God is consistent, there is a KOTN and a KOTS always !! He doesn't want you to know who it is until end times are upon us. 

All of these "NORM" are not Gods ways. 

Everyone I know understands Rome is the Fourth Beast, only those who insist on an Islamic Beast come with this idea. I don't know what else to say to be honest, Daniel chapter 7 clearly tells us its the Fourth Beast. Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. 

 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Before you reply again, you might want to check out this link. 

http://www.bibleprophecy.com/did-daniel-9-predict-the-coming-of-jesus-or-antiochus-epiphanes/

Everyone (at least 85-90 percent) understand that prophecy is about the End Time Anti-Christ.  

[Daniel 11:36]

"Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack."

 

The beast has the power and Islamic nations will follow him .... your "Roman" idea is not feasible

  

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack."

 

The beast has the power and Islamic nations will follow him .... your "Roman" idea is not feasible

  

1. The bible says different.

2. See my above post All the Islamic Nations in the world COMBINED would be whipped in 5 minutes.

[Daniel 11:36]

Sorry, but you are wrong

Islam specifically will fight at Armageddon and loose [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:36-45]

Edited June 19, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Retrobyter]

On 6/16/2018 at 6:36 PM, Revelation Man said:

...

TRANSITION PERIOD

I think this three verse passage covers a 2000 some odd year stretch of time. It reaches from the Maccabean Revolt all the way unto the end times via verse 35 where it states even to the time of the end, which is a yet to be appointed time !! We see in verse 33 that many will understand but fall by the sword, flame, captivity, many days, this sounds like the early church Saints also, they understood, and thus Rome killed them in many violent ways, and when they fall they will be helped with a little help (Holy Spirit), but many will believe Satan's lies (flatteries). Verse 35 keeps up the 2000 year journey unto the end times, many will fall, be purged, made white (Jesus' blood) EVEN TO THE END TIMES !! Which is yet for a future time to be APPOINTED !! Then we see the Anti-Christ starting in verse 36. I think verse 33 is the Maccabean Revolt, and maybe the early Christian Church, then verses 34 and 35 transition via the whole 2000 year Church Age unto the end time !! The transition is a little convoluting and confuses many, some think Antiochus Epiphanes is the character that runs from Daniel 11:21 all the way to verse 45, some think its the Anti-Christ character that runs from verse 21 all the way to verse 45. Both sides seemingly can't see the transition that I see in verses 33-35. Its there, we just have to look a little deeper, it thus is the transition period between the two characters. 

 

SEGMENTED HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES 

It seems we need to look at this prophecy here in segments. A historical segment that has already been fulfilled (Dan. 11:1-35) and an eschatological segment where the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Of course when Daniel received this prophetic uttering none of it had basically come to pass, now all of it has come to pass except for Dan. 11:36-45 and Dan. 12:1-12. So, it seems after verse 35 we can say that we fast forward so to speak into eschatology. Although you might say we are at the utter end of verse 35, for the most part when the Rapture hits we will be at verse 36 via the Tribulation period. 

...

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You were doing fine until you got to the portion above. Then, you fumbled the ball. You're forgetting two other prominent figures in history: Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great. Both of these men were also important in the history of the Land and Dani'el's people, and both are predicted in Daniel 11.

Why is it so important that you READ INTO (eisegesis) the text some reference to the Beast (aka "Antichrist") when it's NOT THERE?

The truth is that the "end times" or the "times of the end" began with Yeshua`. Listen to what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:17-21 (KJV)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: ep' eschatou toon chronoon = "upon [the] last of-the times") for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

This is reflected in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:23-28 (KJV)

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (Greek: epi sunteleia toon aioonoon = "upon [the] consummation of-the ages") hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And, the end times are not mentioned in Daniel 11 but in 12:1 and following:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael (the one "who is like God") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar hagawdowl = "the-Prince the-high," as in Sar Shalom = "Prince of Peace") which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Hebrew: `eet tsaaraah = "a-time of-trouble," same as in Jeremiah 30:7), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Retrobyter
to add a little info

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You were doing fine until you got to the portion above. Then, you fumbled the ball. You're forgetting two other prominent figures in history: Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great. Both of these men were also important in the history of the Land and Dani'el's people, and both are predicted in Daniel 11.

Well I was of course doing an exegesis on Daniel chapter 11 and the Greek Kingdoms via the KOTS vs. the KOTN and there is no proof that any Roman is a part of this discussion, as a matter of fact I see the jump ahead of 2000 years very plainly, we are shown Antiochus Epophanes, then on verses 33-35 we are clearly shown a transition unto the end times: 

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So its very clear to me, we are given a prophetic uttering via Gabriel/Jesus, and we are given all the things IN GENERAL that happen between Antiochus Epiphanes death and the Anti-Christ who shows up at the End Times which is a time yet to be APPOINTED but is coming soon now for us. W see the Church Age Saints via them of UNDERSTANDING will FALL, it is to TRY THEM......TO PURGE THEM........TO MAKE THEM WHITE.......TO THE END OF TIME. Then of course the Rapture will happen and the Anti-Christ or King of the North, a man born in Greece/E.U. is at hand in verses 36-45.

So why should I interject that which is not there ? It seems we disagree and that is OK, but remember, it is my Exegesis, thus I have to go with my uderstanding brother, not yours, I am OK with you stating your opinion, nut I don't share it brother.

Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U. (Fourth Beast). 

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Why is it so important that you READ INTO (eisegesis) the text some reference to the Beast (aka "Antichrist") when it's NOT THERE?

 

I am led by the Holy Spirit, not by my own spirit.  And 90 percent of Christendom sees the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45, it clearly POINTS towards END TIMES in verse 35, you just don't see it brother. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The truth is that the "end times" or the "times of the end" began with Yeshua`. Listen to what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:17-21 (KJV)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: ep' eschatou toon chronoon = "upon [the] last of-the times") for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

For starters, Jesus told his Disciples that his return was imminent, then in Matthew he told them of the 70 AF Event and a 2000 year Church Age even though they did not understand how long to would be, so dividing from Adam to Mosses, from Moses to Jesus and from Jesus to the Second Coming we are on the LAST TIMES.you can divide things up in many ways. We were not in the END TIMES as per being close because we can use common sense and see we are still here 2000 years later, Jesus knew how long it would be in general, he chose not to tell for his own reasons. I don't really care why it was, God knows best. So if you divide the periods into 2000 year Sections, Paul was in the LAST TIMES. Its Semantics, you seem to want it to say END TIMES to try and prove a point, I look to the FACTS/SCRIPTURES to prove my points, not verbiage that can be seen in many different ways, I look to the scriptures that say he will be an Assyrian (Isaiah 10) born in Greece (Daniel 8), who comes to power in the E.U./Fourth Beast (Daniel 7) in the End Times. I don't worry about VAGUE PHRASES where I know Jesus was just trying to keep their hopes up via an imminent return. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, the end times are not mentioned in Daniel 11 but in 12:1 and following:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael (the one "who is like God") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar hagawdowl = "the-Prince the-high," as in Sar Shalom = "Prince of Peace") which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Hebrew: `eet tsaaraah = "a-time of-trouble," same as in Jeremiah 30:7), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I just showed you the END TIMES Mentioned in verse 35 !! 

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is yet for a time appointed. 

[Daniel 11:36]

"Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U."

 

This is where you go astray .... Rome is not the fourth beast

Where does scripture tell that the antichrist is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U.

Your end time story on this matter is false

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U."

 

This is where you go astray .... Rome is not the fourth beast

Where does scripture tell that the antichrist is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U.

Your end time story on this matter is false

The bible says it is. We have went over the numerous times and I am not going to change my understandings. 

Daniel 7 shows the Little Horn Arises out of the Fourth Beast.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The Beast is cast into hell in Dan. 7:11, then in chapter 8 we see the same Little Horn via the Greek Kingdom.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

God is not giving us back to back "Little Horns" that are 2000 years apart.  Gabriel interprets: 

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter (1) time of their kingdom, when the transgressors (2) are come to the full, a king of fierce (3) countenance, and understanding (4) dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his (5) own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy (6) people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify (7) himself in his heart, and by peace shall (8) destroy MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince (9) of princes; but he shall be broken (10) without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening (11) and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

1.) Greece is still a Kingdom, Daniel 7:12 tells us......12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.......Meaning the Beast (Dan. 7:11) is cast into hell, but the other Beasts, lose their Dominion, but remain for a "Season and a Time" THUS Babylon was where Alexander the Great lived and died, Persia is IRAN TODAY.....GREECE is still a Nation as is ROME.....In the latter time of their Kingdom means TODAY !!

2.) Transgressors are come to the full, this one is easy, in verses 19 we see this.......19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be..............Gabriel tells Daniel that at the END OF THE INDIGNATION (Hebrew word for Indignation =  Za'am meaning Gods Fury at Sin) so the Indignation at sins is an END TIME EVENT, Gods Anger at sin has COME FULL !! Thus the Transgressors have COME FULL, the Bowls of Gods Wrath are overflowing !! A Fierce King arises at THIS TIME !!

3.) The Fierce King is of course the Anti-Christ, I would say murdering 2 billion or more people says you are a Fierce Person.

4.) The Anti-Christ of course understand Dark Sentences or Riddle and Conundrums, he is of Satan !!

5.) As Rev. 13 says, the Dragon gives him his SEAT & POWER. Thus his power is derived from the Dragon, of course.

6.) The Anti-Christ shall destroy the Holy Peoples, so says Daniel 12:7, and that is just what this man here does !!

7.) He of course claims to be God in the Temple and/or places an Image of himself in the Temple of God and DEMANDS Worship.

8.) Via PEACE shall he DESTROY MANY [Nations] and Conquers Israel also. 

9.) He comes against Jesus Christ (Prince of princes) via the END TIMES.

10.) Jesus defeats him WITHOUT HANDS, meaning by the Holy Spirit/WORD of his Mouth/Sword of his mouth, and that is just what the Mountain which CRUSHES THE STATUE in Daniel chapter 2 does, he defeats the World Leaders WITHOUT HANDS !! 

11.) You see the VISION in verse 26 is called the EVENING & the MORNING, thus its 1150 Evening and Mornings nor 2300 Days.

Its obviously the Little Horn in both Daniel chapters 7 and 8 are the EXACT SAME PERSON !! 

Likewise the person in Daniel 11:36-45 is the EXACT SAME PERSON.  As is the Assyrian in Isaiah chapter 10. 

Gods giving you all the clues you need here. All you got to do is quit denting chapter 8 is the LITTLE HORN, even though hes called the LITTLE HORN !!

Thus he HAS TO come out of TWO KINGDOMS at once. 

He comes out of the Fourth Beast AND out of one of the Four Greek Kingdoms at the END OF TIME.....Thus he has to arise out of BOTH at ONCE. He is Born in Greece, hes a Turk, and he will become the E.U. President. In Daniel 11 why do you think we are given the Grecian Histories of the Syrian Wars via the KOTS vs. the KOTN ? Because God wants us to know in the END TIMES, which ever power is led by the Grecian King who is TO THE UTMOST NORTH will be The Anti-Christ !! The Little Horn !! That will be the European Union, who has Greece in their Union, thus they are the ONLY NATION that can be where the KOTN is born, if Syria was in the E.U. or if Egypt was in the E.U. you guys might have a point, but you don't, because ONLY Greece is in the E.U. and the Little Horn MUST arise via the Fourth Beast (European Union). 

God Bless 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

I think your are very wrong with your idea about the little horn being a Turk born in Greece and becoming the E.U. president

You have made all of this up 

The little horn will be the antichrist driven by Abaddon who will come out of the abyss to rule again at the time of the end

This fallen angel went onto the abyss after his 5th rule through Antiochus IV and he will  be released to rule the Middle East during his 6th smaller and 7th larger kingdom during the 70th week decreed for Israel

There is nothing about end time prophecy recorded in scripture between the ending of the 5th and the beginning of the 6th and the 7th   

Edited June 21, 2018 by Daniel 11:36