Debp Posted June 20, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 52 Topic Count: 1,016 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 12,292 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 16,355 Days Won: 92 Joined: 07/19/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2018 BADJAO33....a question for you. What would The Philippine government do if hundreds of thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens descended upon The Philippines and asked to reside there or didn't even ask if they could reside there but secretly arrived? Would The Philippine government immediately accept these people, help them financially with housing and food, provide free medical and dental care, give them free cell phones, low cost internet. If they had children, would The Philippines provide schooling in the language of the illegal aliens until the illegal aliens' children could learn the language? You criticize the USA alot.....but the USA has done all of the above for illegal aliens in our country for many, many decades. Somehow I don't think The Philippines would even bother to take these people into their country. As Christians we do love and care for all people....however, people should try to obey the laws of a country. If a person wants to come into the USA, they should do it legally. Since they are not doing it legally, our government is currently handling the situation the best way we can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 48 minutes ago, Badjao33 said: These parents who are crossing the border to seek asylum, however, are not criminals. Even if they were to be charged for crossing the border, it's a misdemeanor offense that carries fines and no more than six months in prison. Yes, it is correct that seeking asylum doesn't make you a criminal. But what you don't seem to understand even though it has been explained numerous times to you, is that the majority of the people coming to the border and trying to cross illegally are not parents with children. They are drug cartel members and human sex traffickers who are taking children to the border and posing as parents. Yes there are parents seeking asylum. However, these parents AND the criminals showing up have NO documentation, and there is nothing that necessarily distinguishes the parents from the criminals. They are trying to separate the children from the criminals. They are not trying to punish the parents or the children. They are trying sort out who are parents and who are not. The children are sent to facilities to be housed until everything can be sorted out and the children can be returned to their parents, and those children who did not arrive with their parents can be put in foster homes. There is nothing cruel or inhumane about this. These children are not being abused or mistreated. Under previous administration's "catch and release" program the everyone was released together and the children that were brought up by human traffickers were then taken by the criminals and sold as sex slaves in the human sex trafficking industry. President Trump ended that program and now the kids are not being put into he hands of those who would make them sex slaves. But those facts are not part of your preferred, liberal narrative and you don't want to be bothered by those issues. As for the crossing the border, it is a criminal offense and a felony to cross our border without authorization. We have not always enforced it as a felony probably because we don[t have the prison space, but is more than a misdemeanor. It is considered a criminal offense. Quote There are many traffic violations that carry the same penalties. Should parents who are charged with a traffic violation have their children immediately removed from their custody and sent away? Or a parent that is caught littering? Of course not. The parents crossing the borders who are being separated from their children are escaping situations where the lives of themselves and their children are in grave danger. It's not against the law to love your children to an extent that you are willing to do whatever it takes to get them to a safe environment where there is hope for a better future and US law recognizes this. This is not a like running a red light or jay walking. And yes, if you rob a grocery store to feed your starving children, you will still go to jail. If you break into someone's house to steal jewelry and electronics to sell at a pawn shop so that you can buy shoes or medicine for your children, you will still go to jail and be separated from your children. The end does not justify the means. And like it or not, we do not have to let anyone into our country just because they seek asylum or for whatever reason. There is no law that obligates us to let ANYONE in, at all. We are a sovereign nation and we have the right to determine how many people we can absorb into our population and just because someone claims to need asylum, it is not our obligation to accept those claims at face-value and fail to do any kind of fact checking to see if the asylum claim is true AND if the children of these people are in fact, their real children. You don't seem to want to face facts. You don't want to face the fact that people need to be vetted, they need to undergo screening and background checks and medical exams and we need to make sure that we are not putting children into hands of criminals who will mistreat them. Again, those are issues that don't fit your liberal narrative and so far, every time these issues are raised, you ignore them. Quote This is not a political issue, it's a moral issue. What is happening at our borders is nothing short of child abuse and child abuse upsets me as it should everyone. Yes, bring children to the border and pretending to be their parents when in fact, you are a human trafficker that intends to sell the children into the sex slave industry is something that upsets me, as it should everyone. Quote Most Christians in America have been condemning the government's policy of separating children at the border, but some are lacking in basic empathy it seems, and it's sad. That is partly because most American Christians are like most Americans. They get their news in short sound bites, and they don't really bother to get all of the facts. They get short news updates from communist networks like CNN and MSNBC who intentionally skew the stories and leave out important facts in order to make it appear that the US government is setting up concentration camps and are putting these children in tent cities in 100 degree weather with scant food and water. Nothing is further from the truth, but Christians are lazy and just run with whatever the media says. Liberals abhor people like me who think critically and don't just drink the CNN Kool-Aid. Quote As Christians, our response to these families and their children should be one of love and compassion, not one of questioning whether or not they are here legally or illegally or which party is to blame. A loving response is not to let children fall into the hands of human sex traffickers. But you have a different take on what "love" looks like in this case. Because you have adopted the liberal narrative that simply wants to let everyone in our country, no restrictions, no questions asked, just let them all in and who cares what happens to the children after they disappear off the radar. Quote This is not a fake issue, it is real, and as unbelievable as it is, it's happening in the United States of America of all places. In addition to praying for these families that are being affected, I am also praying that God will have mercy on our country for its un-Christlike approach to the situation at our border. You don't really know what is happening at the border and facts don't really mean anything to you. There is nothing un-Christlike about saving children from sexual predators and human traffickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Badjao33 said: I delayed my response to your post intentionally as it was so well said that I felt it needed to be repeated again later in the thread. Many seem to be forgetting that the kingdom Jesus came to establish is "not from this world" (John 18:36) and as followers of Jesus our citizenship is not of this earth. Our approach to situations like this should be led by the teachings and the way of Jesus Christ and we as Christians need to stick to the Biblical version of the Kingdom of God and avoid getting caught up in the American version of the Kingdom of God. It might also be helpful if everyone defending our government's new policy at the border to re-read Matthew 25:31-46 . Maybe more than once. I was a stranger, and you invited Me in... “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46) That is a disgusting misapplication of Scripture. That passage would ONLY apply if we simply closed our borders and allowed NO ONE to enter at all for any reason, legal or illegal. But what is happening the border is far, far different and again, you and other liberals only work from one set of facts and any facts that don't fit the narrative you prefer, are simply ignored. The children are being fed three meals and two snacks a day. They are getting medical care, and counseling. They are getting fresh clothes and hygiene supplies and are allowed to play video games and sports, and they get beds in air conditioned rooms. They being treated just like the sheep treated the "least of these" in that parable. The parents and the criminals are not being mistreated, either. It's not ideal and no one is being treated like royalty, but neither are they being abused or mistreated in any way. They are getting treated better than Americans are being treated if they are in other country illegally or broke another country's laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 17 hours ago, Gideon said: Brother, I so appreciate your voice of reason and caring. What I have heard for the most part is almost unrecognizable to what I read in theBiblw as real Christian faith. Are we Americans first or are we Christians living as sojourners in a world desperate to see love displayed through those who are called by the name of our savior? Reall? Feeding the children, giving them medical care and clothing and clean beds to sleep in is unrecognizable to the Christian faith? Maybe you need to get your facts straight and learn about what is actually going on down there. Try educating yourself a little bit and stop drinking the liberal Kool-Aid. Quote I have heard all sorts of reasons as to why we should shut up our bowels of compassion and show no mercy. I have heard it is all sex traffickers, the immigrants are going to make us sick, they are just guilty of breaking laws.... blah, blah, blah. Jesus weeps. Actually that is a lie. No one said we should show no compassion or mercy. You are not telling the truth, but are bearing false witness. We are talking about showing mercy by getting children out of hands of criminals who would mistreat them and the children are being shown every mercy we can show them. We are simply bringing out facts that you don't want to think about or fact to face up to. Quote Jesus said that if someone comes to you in need and you tell them you will pray for them but do not help them, how dwells the love of God in you? It is a rhetorical question, by the way, answering itself. Like the Pharisees, how many there are today in our churches who love possessing the correct doctrines but have no fruit to show from those beliefs. Jesus called them a brood of vipers, whited seplchres, and upbraided them for neglecting the weightier matters of the Torah, like love and mercy. Is not empathy and compassion to be our calling card? The excuses thrown around here are simply that, excuses. Here is the bottom line. We are watching out for us, and to heck with the rest. Do we not think God will bless us as a nation if we actually displayed goodness and righteousness to a world lacking these things? If we do not find repentance, our nation is headed for a severe waking up and it will not be pleasant. Yes, we are to show mercy and give help those who come to us in need of help. But at the same time, as Christians we are also stewards of resources God has given us and we are to wise in how we handle those sources. We help those in genuine needs, not those who come to us trying to game the system and take unfair advantage of our compassion and simply want to use us because they are too lazy to find a job or take responsibility for their self-destructive choices. We are accountable for how we handle ministry assets and resources and so we have to be discerning as to is in genuine need and who just wants a hand out so they can take what we give them and sell it to buy alcohol or drugs. Quote Jesus was teaching and instructed His audience of the importance of loving their neighbor. They asked “Who is our neighbor” ready to begin making excuses so that they would not be cast themselves in a bad light. So He told the parable of the man traveling who was set upon by robbers. One after another, men came by that had the means to help. A rich man, then a fellow countryman, then a priest and all simply ignored the situation. Finally, a Samaritan came by, who was an enemy of the Jews. His heart was touched, and in compassion, he took him in and cared for him. Then Jesus looked them in the eyes and asked them which one was there neighbor. We are taught by the Lord Himself that if we show no mercy, we will get no mercy. If we are abiding correctly in the Lord, should not His love and compassion should be coursing through our veins? There is coming a day when the vast majority of us may well find ourselves hungry and homeless, needing someone to show us and our own children compassion. If we have showed that to others, I believe our God will move mountains to see to it that we are fed and clothed ourselves. But if our “patriotism” and correct political stance thinks it can sit on the throne next to Jesus and all will be well for us, we need to think again. blessings and may God open our eyes and beware the hardness of heart that Satan tries to get to take root, disguised as Christianity. Gideon This is just pointless rambling based on you not knowing the facts and basically, one again, sitting in self-righteous judgment on others whom you don't know. That seems to be par for the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 48 minutes ago, Badjao33 said: I've heard this numerous times, but does that make it true? Apparently less than 1% of those crossing the border with children are drug cartel members and human sex traffickers. 1%? Oh, okay, so as long as only 1% of children coming across the border that's acceptable number to you. My goodness. How "Christian" of you. 1% represents tens of thousands given that we have nearly a million a year that try to enter illegally. So to you, if only 1% of the children end up coming across our borders end up in the sex slave trade, you're good with that. Those kids don't get any of your "Christian" compassion. Quote According to US law under the Immigration and Nationality Act, illegally crossing the border is a misdemeanor. It has never been classified as a felony. My mistake. It is felony after the first offense. Quote This doesn't apply to 99% of those crossing the border. While 1% is too many, it does not justify punishing the 99% who are not traffickers. They are not being punished. They are being sorted out so that the 1% don't end up as sex slaves. But your so-called "Christian" compassion only goes so far, and is fairly selective. Kind of like how you said that you think that some Islamic terrorism is acceptable and understandable. Explains why your view of compassion is so warped. So your answer is just don't separate anyone and if some end up as sex slaves, Oh well... Can't love everyone can we? Quote The children are being separated from their parents that love and protect them. This is un-Christlike, a traumatic experience, and there are alternatives. Before this new policy every possible effort was made to prevent children from being separated from their parents. They are being separated to make sure that their parents are in fact, their parents. They are not being mistreated or abused. But their parents broke the law and there are consequences for doing that. You know, over here in the adult world where we deal with real life, when you commit crimes, you have to pay a price. There are consequences for your actions. Adults are mature enough to handle that part of reality. Quote The children are being separated from their parents that love and protect them. How does subjecting your child to 100 degree temps over miles and miles of desert qualify as loving and protecting? Do you know how many dead bodies of children have been found on the other side of the border in the fields where the illegals are traveling? Quote Before this new policy every possible effort was made to prevent children from being separated from their parents. It's not a new policy. It is a 21 year-old policy going back to the Clinton administration. What's "new" is that Trump ended catch and release. Before Trump ended the catch and release policy of the Obama era, children were not being separated at all, and many of them ended up in the hands of sex traffickers. No effort was made to separate the parents from the criminals and children were victimized. Many of those kids are lost in the sex slave trade, and many have probably been murdered as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debp Posted June 20, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 52 Topic Count: 1,016 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 12,292 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 16,355 Days Won: 92 Joined: 07/19/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Debp said: BADJAO33....a question for you. What would The Philippine government do if hundreds of thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens descended upon The Philippines and asked to reside there or didn't even ask if they could reside there but secretly arrived? Would The Philippine government immediately accept these people, help them financially with housing and food, provide free medical and dental care, give them free cell phones, low cost internet. If they had children, would The Philippines provide schooling in the language of the illegal aliens until the illegal aliens' children could learn the language? You criticize the USA alot.....but the USA has done all of the above for illegal aliens in our country for many, many decades. Somehow I don't think The Philippines would even bother to take these people into their country. As Christians we do love and care for all people....however, people should try to obey the laws of a country. If a person wants to come into the USA, they should do it legally. Since they are not doing it legally, our government is currently handling the situation the best way we can. 15 minutes ago, Badjao33 said: I've heard this numerous times, but does that make it true? Apparently less than 1% of those crossing the border with children are drug cartel members and human sex traffickers. According to US law under the Immigration and Nationality Act, illegally crossing the border is a misdemeanor. It has never been classified as a felony. This doesn't apply to 99% of those crossing the border. While 1% is too many, it does not justify punishing the 99% who are not traffickers. The children are being separated from their parents that love and protect them. This is un-Christlike, a traumatic experience, and there are alternatives. Before this new policy every possible effort was made to prevent children from being separated from their parents. I think a journey of thousands of miles from Central America through the oven-like heat of the American desert would be very traumatic on children. Their parents were willing to subject them to that. The children are now being cared for in a humane way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, Badjao33 said: Here's a fact, less than 1% of the families crossing the border have been found to be fraudulent in the past two years, that means that almost all of those crossing the border with children are legitimate. They are not sexual predators and traffickers. So to those tens of thousand of kids who make up the " 1%" and end up as sex slaves or part of drug cartels, you say, "Too bad, but I really don't care." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Here are some American parents fatally separated from their children by illegals>>> https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/270496/illegal-aliens-fatally-separate-american-parents-daniel-greenfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Badjao33 said: Yes, I criticize the US a lot because the policies of our government directly reflect on me. When people see US policies that affect people negatively it makes people question my position on these issues. Just because a policy affects people negatively doesn't mean the policy is wrong or immoral. Quote America claims to be a Christian nation, yet policies like the one we are debating now are not Christlike. No, keeping children out of the hands of sex traffickers isn't unChristlike. Making sure that people who claim to be parents are actually parents isn't unChristlike. Quote As a missionary the US policies and the actions of Christians back home play a role on how people first perceive me as an individual. I don't like having to explain why the US is doing what it is doing or why Christians support certain positions. I prefer to focus on spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. America is quickly becoming a stumbling block for the gospel in developing countries around the world. It's easy to use anything out there as an excuse to reject the gospel. Quote It's hard to enter the country legally when asylum seekers are being turned away at the checkpoints. It is completely lost on you that not everyone claiming to seek asylum are authentic asylum seekers. You don't even consider the fact that maybe the reason some asylum seekers are actually people trying to exploit that concept to enter the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted June 20, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 I stared at the beginning of the post that I was not wanting to focus on the politics of immigration reform. This was never meant to be a Democrat versus a Republican thread. As the world spins out of control more and more every day, these situations are going to be more and more of a problem. And there is no good answer. There is simply a choice between lesser of two evils. We as followers of Christ are told that we are sojourners here on the earth. This is not our home, nor where we should invest our hearts. Our citizenship is in Heaven and ultimately, it is God’s laws that we are to honor. My point was that my heart was broken seeing those children that were. With their parents separated from them. Trying to justify this by all sorts of reasonings of our fleshly minds is missing the whole point. Compassion is the only thing I was trying to get at. As things spin further and further out of control, everything that can be shaken will be, including our comfortable Christian lives. Do we understand that most likely one day in the future we as believers could be the ones rounded up, and yes, potentially separated from our own children? This will all be done for the “good” of society, with reasonings that sound strangely familiar to some I have heard here. If we do not take the high road and let His love in us overshadow all else, we may have good human reasonings but have missed the opportunity to share with others that our hope is not in this life, but in HIS life shining through us. May God bless you all, Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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