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Heb 13:8

Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

These verses say NOTHING about where we go after this "meeting in the air." And, if the Lord shall "come down "away-from or out-of the sky," why would He go back up?! (THINK about it! He's just come from the New Jerusalem who-knows-how-many miles away! Why would He make the trip back just to repeat the trip one more time after seven years, just to help us escape the "tribulation?!" No, it makes NO sense, especially when He is QUITE CAPABLE of protecting us THROUGH the disasters coming, and has DEMONSTRATED that ability in many examples, like Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego!)

The word "harpageesometha," stemming from "harpazoo," means "shall be snatched away" and has NO implication of an "upward" direction! The references to "the clouds" and "the air" merely refer to this earth's atmosphere and NO HIGHER!

It does tell us where we go in Rev 12:5, to God's throne.
Retro, the word used in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó.
Watch video for further understanding.. 
youtube / watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc&t=1s 
I hope this helps. God bless.

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21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

You are closer than most, but now you've got to learn a couple of other points:

First, "soul" is not the same as "spirit."

Second, the word "soul" means an "air-breathing creature."

The Hebrew word for "soul" is...

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

(Everything past the dash, "--," are words that were used in the KJV to translate this ONE Hebrew word.)

It stems from the root verb, "naafash":

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(When Strong's says "passively," it means "reflexively.")

However, the Hebrew word translated "spirit" is...

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach (the verb form); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This noun comes from its verb form,...

7306 ruwach (roo'-akh). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

God's WIND gave a puff of breath to the body He made, called "haa'aadaam" or "the man" or "Adam," and Adam became a living AIR-BREATHER. That's what Genesis 2:7 tells us:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(God was the first to use what we call today "CPR" or "CardioPulmonary Rescucitation.")

When we die, as you noted in ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (Hebrew: v-haaruwach = "and the breath; and the wind") shall return unto God who gave it.

It's PURELY PHYSICAL! There is no "immaterial part" mentioned in EITHER verse!

I'm looking at it from the point of we were in heaven before being born of woman,ie,flesh.

Also from the rich man and lazarous 

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' "

As stated by Paul,we have two bodies

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

When the flesh dies it returns to dust never to be used again

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"Air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

Quote

 

The spirit of man is like the wind. Man does have a higher spirit here, and this goes to the eternal life that man has. To understand this more, lets go back to the 11th and 14th verses of this chapter, and the word "world" or "olam" or ages. God does have a past, present and future; and mans soul, or spiritual body also lived in the ages past, in the world that was; and he will also live and be judged in the age to come, after death at the close of the Millennium age.

Let's look at this a little closer. Before you were born, you were with God, and lived in the age that was. God created you, your soul in the eons past, in the age that was, and you lived with Him in your spirit body. Then just as you were with Him before in the ages past, you will also be with Him again when your spirit leaves your flesh body, that God created to test that spirit body of yours. Whether you like it or not, you will face your heavenly Father face to face, and be held accountable for all those thing that you have done while being tested in this flesh body.

 

https://www.theseason.org/ecclesiastes/ecclesiastes3.htm

Edited by n2thelight

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18 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

It does tell us where we go in Rev 12:5, to God's throne.
Retro, the word used in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó.
Watch video for further understanding.. 
youtube / watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc&t=1s 
I hope this helps. God bless.

Shalom, Heb 13:8.

Revelation 12:1-5 (KJV)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Umm... No, not really. The "woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" represents the nation Israel, because this is reminiscent of Yosef's dream:

Genesis 37:9-11 (KJV)

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

The "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" and who "was caught up unto God and to His throne" is Yeshua` the Messiah of God. He is the Messiah - the One Anointed to be King "and of His kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke 1:30-33.)

See, Revelation 12:5 is JUST about Yeshua` the Messiah, not the rest of us. HE is the FIRSTFRUITS OF THE RESURRECTION; not the 144,000 (like the video suggests)! While there were other resurrections prior to that of the Messiah, it was HIS Resurrection that was unto eternal life!

Regarding Matthew 24:31, LOL! Haven't you figured it out, yet? 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 tells us how we get into the air, and Matthew 24:31 tells us how we get out of the air! (And, since we don't go to some "place" called "Heaven," these two events are in close proximity to each other. The word "heaven," coming from the Greek word "ouranos," means the "sky," particularly the earth's atmosphere, where the clouds, the air, and the wind exist.)

Edited by Retrobyter

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16 hours ago, n2thelight said:

...

As stated by Paul,we have two bodies

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

When the flesh dies it returns to dust never to be used again

...

Shalom, n2thelight.

Wrong. If we don't have a BODILY resurrection, then there IS NO "resurrection!" Your opinion comes from what Randy Alcorn calls the christoplatonic view (see Appendix A in his book on Heaven). Since the introduction of Plato's philosophy about the physical and the non-physical by Philo and Origen, "Christians"  have been under the influence of Plato's Greek philosophy that the non-physical is somehow better than the physical.

HOWEVER, God CREATED the physical and He created it PERFECT! If God doesn't "win back" His physical Creation, then haSatan won against Him in some small way, and I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe that!

The New Earth will be a REAL, PHYSICAL restructuring of this present Earth. The New Sky (the New Heaven) will be a REAL, PHYSICAL restructuring of this present Sky. The New Jerusalem will be a REAL, PHYSICAL city that descends to the New Earth and will be our eternal home. John calls it "God's TENT" in...

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I was going to end it there, but let me leave you with a passage of Scripture that you need to grab and hold onto with BOTH hands!

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Edited by Retrobyter
to add Scripture

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Wrong. If we don't have a BODILY resurrection, then there IS NO "resurrection!" Your opinion comes from what Randy Alcorn calls the christoplatonic view (see Appendix A in his book on Heaven). Since the introduction of Plato's philosophy about the physical and the non-physical by Philo and Origen, "Christians"  have been under the influence of Plato's Greek philosophy that the non-physical is somehow better than the physical.

The point many fail to see is that we were in heaven before being born of woman,had satan never sinned we would not had been made flesh.

We were in spiritual bodies in the first earth age,doesn't  mean that we didn't have mass. Scripture states that the flesh goes back to dust.

We don't need that dust to make us whole again,as we were already whole,only reason we needed the flesh was to house the soul.

What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman?

The below is the best I can show.

The Resurrection Body

 


 

In ancient Egypt, Pharaohs drove their slaves to build huge pyramids to house their dead bodies. They filled these tombs with immense treasures of gold and all kinds of utensils that might be of service in their coming life. They cultivated the art of embalming, so that their bodies could be preserved for thousands of years with the least possible amount of decay. It's as if they thought that by taking such elaborate precautions, they could be prepared for the life to come. Apparently, they believed that their souls would one day return into those mummified bodies, and they wanted everything to be ready.

This is a stark contrast with the attitude expressed by Jesus. One of His disciples asked him, "Let me first go bury my father." Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-60). For Jesus, the dead body was of no consequence.

For Christians, the focus is not meant to be on the body that has died, but on the spirit that rises into the coming life. For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord, not lying cold and dead in the ground. Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave, and that when a person dies the soul remains unconscious for years or centuries until Christ comes again and brings all the bodies out of the grave and reawakens the souls that are sleeping within those bodies. Yet it is not only more comforting to picture a person rising immediately into the next life after death, but it is also more in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.

We Rise Soon after Death

Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.

When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Since we rise immediately after death, people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open. For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves. When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19), and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24). In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

Angels have sometimes appeared to people whose eyes were opened to see them. Very often, the Bible says that these angels are people. For example, we read that three men appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18: 2), and that when Jacob wrestled with an angel he wrestled with a man (Genesis 32: 24). Likewise, the angels were people who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5: 13-14), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13: 6-11), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9: 2-3,11; 10: 2-3,6), Daniel (Daniel 9: 21; 10: 5; 12: 6-7), Zechariah (Zechariah 1:8,11), and the women at the sepulcher (Mark 16: 5; Luke 24: 4). The Bible says these angels were people, and clearly none of them were still in the grave.

There Is a Spiritual Body

The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body, while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49). The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.

The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham; the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).

The body we have in the spiritual world is not the body that we put into the grave. The Bible says that our physical body is corruptible and mortal, which means that it does not last, but rots and dies. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50). "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7). When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7; compare Genesis 3:19). So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54). Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.

The Grain of Wheat

One of the ways that Jesus teaches us about the life after death is by saying, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain" (John 12: 24; compare Matthew 13:31; Mark 4:31; Luke 13:19). This is very similar to the analogy that Paul uses: "Someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as he pleases, and to each seed its own body." (1 Corinthians 15: 35-38)

When a seed is put into the ground, the outer husk of this seed simply rots away. But within that seed is a germ of life that is raised up with a completely new plant or body around it. Paul says very clearly here that the body which is raised is not the body which is put into the ground. Furthermore, when the farmer plants his seed, it immediately begins growing. It does not remain dormant in the ground for centuries before a new life begins. Likewise, when our bodies are buried in the ground, the germ of life within each of us is immediately raised up clothed with a new body appropriate for the spiritual world.

Objections

Those who believe in a resurrection of the physical body may quote passages to support that belief, but an examination of those passages will show that this is not the teaching of the passages themselves, but is an assumption that is read into them.

What about Job's Prophecy?

Job says, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25,26, King James Version). Some people have assumed that the "latter day" means the end of the world, and that "worms destroying this body" means the body rotting in the grave. In fact, the original Hebrew does not mention either "worms" or "body". A more accurate translation is: "And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh shall I see God…" (New King James Version).

Job was not talking about his body rotting in the grave, but about the fact that his skin was already virtually destroyed by the boils that covered him from head to foot (Job 2:7, 19:20). When he said, "in my flesh I shall see God," he was not talking about some future time when his body would be resurrected, but he was saying that he would see God before he died, while he was still alive in the body he had. At the end of the book of Job God did appear to Job, and Job said, " I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You" (Job 42:5). And so the prophecy was fulfilled, that in his flesh he would see God. We can also see that God redeemed him at that time, for we are told, "The Lord accepted Job. And the Lord restored Job's losses…. Indeed the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before" (Job 42:9-10). The same chapter shows us what Job meant by "the latter day," for we read, "Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning" (Job 42:12).

Taken in context, this passage says nothing at all about the resurrection of the physical body centuries later, yet it has been taken as a primary passage supporting that concept.

What about the Last Day?

In one passage Jesus says that He will raise people up "at the last day" (John 6: 39-54). From that passage alone, we would not know whether He meant "the last day of the world" or "the last day of their earthly lives." In a similar way, Jesus says in the previous chapter, "The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5: 28, 19). The context shows He was speaking not of a resurrection still centuries distant, but in the present tense. "The Father raises up the dead, and gives life to them…. The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5: 21, 25). Clearly, this resurrection was already taking place. Consequently, when Martha spoke of her brother Lazarus remaining in the tomb until "the resurrection at the last day," Jesus corrected her by saying, "I am the resurrection and the life," implying that the resurrection was present. Jesus continued, "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." When we view the teachings about being raised at "the last day" in this context, it becomes clear that it must mean "the last day of their lives."

Resurrection from Evil or Despair

There are two different ways in which the Lord brings us from death into life. Every person who dies is brought to life in the spiritual world, either in heaven like Lazarus or in hell like the rich man. Our body dies but our spirit lives on in the next life. There's another way in which the Lord brings us from death into life: he brings us out of evil, which is spiritual death, and gives us heavenly life. Many passages in the Bible that speak of resurrection are referring to the second kind of resurrection, which is coming from an evil state into a good one (see Romans 6:4; Ephesians 2:1, 5-6; Colossians 2:12; 3:1). So for example, we read, "He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies" (Romans 8:11). Taken out of context, this might seem like a reference to physical resurrection. But the context shows that is referring to giving us spiritual life while we are still alive on this earth, for the passage says, " If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness…. If you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:10, 13). Sometimes a misunderstanding of the Bible arises from confusing these two kinds of resurrection.

For example, Ezekiel had a vision of dry bones that were brought together, had flesh put on them and were brought to life. Some people have taken this as a description of how our bodies will be reassembled at the time of resurrection. But in fact, the dry bones that appeared in that vision were not dead people. Rather, the Lord said to Ezekiel that these bones represented the people of Israel, who felt like "dry bones" because they were in captivity (Ezekiel 37:11). The Lord bringing the bones of out of their graves was a symbol of His promise to bring the people of Israel back from their captivity into their own land. It was not a prophecy of a physical resurrection.

Something similar is meant by Isaiah's prophecy, "Shake yourself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem" (Isaiah 52: 2), and Daniel's words: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2; compare 1 Kings 16:2). Paul says, "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light" (Ephesians 5: 14). This does not refer to people who are physically dead and a physical resurrection, but to those who are spiritually dead and their regeneration.

What about the Firstborn from the Dead?

The Bible says that Jesus was the "first born from the dead" (Romans 8:18). Some people have taken this to mean that no one was ever raised from the dead before Jesus was. This would imply that all who died prior to Jesus remained asleep in the ground at least until after His resurrection. But this is a distortion of that teaching. Often being "first" does not mean first in time, but first in importance, as when Jesus speaks of the first commandment (Mark 12:29; Matthew 22:38), and when He says that "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (Mark 9:35; 10:31, Matthew 19:30; 20:16) Jesus is not only said to be the first born from the dead, but also the first born of every creature (Romans 8:15). He is said to be first born because he existed from eternity and created all things, and because he is pre-eminent among all that have been raised from the dead (Romans 8: 16-18; compare John 1:1-9). When Jesus was about to be raised from the dead, He prayed, "And now, O Father, glorify Me with Your own self with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58), so there was no need for Abraham to wait in the grave for centuries to be raised to life, and Jesus could be first among the dead even though others had died and were raised before Him.

http://whatthebiblesays.info/ResurrectionBody.html

 

What about the Natural Bodies Raised by Jesus?

There are many stories of people who were raised from the dead by Jesus and the prophets before him (Luke 7:11-16; 8:41-56; Matthew 9:18-26; Mark 5:22-43; John 11:1-54; 1 Kings 17:17-23; 2 Kings 4:32-37; 13: 21; Acts 9:37-40; 20:9-12). When Jesus worked the miracle of raising someone from the dead, the person's physical body came back to life. Some people have assumed from this that all resurrection will involve the physical body coming back to life. This assumption is unwarranted. When those who died were brought back to life in the physical body, the physical body was never made immortal or incorruptible. All of those people soon left their physical bodies in the grave once more. Furthermore, in every case those who were brought back to life were resurrected within a few days of having died. We are never given an example of someone being brought back to life after thousands of years of sleep in grave. If Jesus had wanted us to think that resurrection happens after thousands of years in the grave, He could have raised Abraham or David from the dead. Instead, He raised people who had just died, to show that resurrection takes place soon after death, and the life of the soul continues even when the life of the body ends.

What about Jesus' Body?

Jesus' resurrection shows the pattern which ours will follow, yet there must also be a difference. Some have thought that we will rise with our physical bodies because Jesus rose with His. But if leaving behind the physical body makes us different from Christ, staying in the grave for centuries would make our resurrection even less like His. Jesus repeatedly told His disciples that He would rise on the third day (Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:63; Luke 9:22; 18:33; 24:7; 24:46; Mark 8:31), and Scripture also shows that what is true of Him in this case will also be true of us. "After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight" (Hosea 6:2). "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). At the same time, Jesus taught that for the rest of us the spirit would rise without the body when He said, "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39).

The Graves Opened and the Dead Appearing

After Jesus rose from the tomb, the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matthew 27:52-53). This passage is not explicit. Were their physical bodies raised, or their spiritual bodies? How long had they been "sleeping"--centuries, or just a few days? What happened to those saints afterwards? Where are they now? Does the holy city mean the Jerusalem in this world, or the new Jerusalem in heaven (Revelation 21:2; 22:19)? This passage clearly shows that the Lord's resurrection brings resurrection to others, but it does not give us any reason to expect centuries of sleep before our resurrection.

Eternal Life Has Begun

Eternal life is not something that is waiting for us in the distant future. There is no reason to think that we have to wait for a long time, for Jesus tells us that for those who accept the life He gives, the kingdom of heaven is already within them (Luke 17:21), and they have already begun living eternally (John 5:24, 17:2, 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20). That life is not interrupted by death, but rather becomes more abundant and complete.

 

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

HOWEVER, God CREATED the physical and He created it PERFECT! If God doesn't "win back" His physical Creation, then haSatan won against Him in some small way, and I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe that!

The New Earth will be a REAL, PHYSICAL restructuring of this present Earth. The New Sky (the New Heaven) will be a REAL, PHYSICAL restructuring of this present Sky. The New Jerusalem will be a REAL, PHYSICAL city that descends to the New Earth and will be our eternal home. John calls it "God's TENT" in...

Yes He did,that's undeniable ,however He destroyed that age when satan rebelled,at that time we were not flesh.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

In Proverbs 8:22 we read of wisdom speaking through Solomon. Wisdom is God for all wisdom is of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before the works of old." What works of old could this be? It is the old earth age, spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6.

Proverbs 8:23; "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." This is stating that wisdom was with God, and He possessed me.

Proverbs 8:24; "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Before there was any need of an abyss, or pit, and the water to fill them, God's wisdom was there.

Proverbs 8:25; "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"

Before the earth even took on it's present form, with the high mountains and rolling hills, God's wisdom was there. Friend, God's wisdom played His part in the creation of this earth, and all wisdom comes from God.

Proverbs 8:26; "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the high part [beginning] of the dust of the world."

God was there in wisdom before that first little atom, or speck of dust of the earth was formed. Before the laws of God that control the energy forces came into being, God's wisdom was there.

Proverbs 8:27; "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass [circle] upon the face of the depth:"

Proverbs 8:28; "And when established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"

Proverbs 8:29; "When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the fountains of the earth:"

In other words, there was land, and oceans, and fields and lakes, and God set His commandment that they should be separated through the "compass" which He set. Today we call it "gravity". This is the force which separates all water from dry land. When the waves hit the rocks of the shoreline, they resend back into the sea by the gravitational forces of the earth. 

God allowed Job to be tested by both Satan and his fellow man, in the first thirty seven chapters of the Book of Job. However, after 37 chapters of man's nonsense, ramblings, and bad advice by those around Job, God spoke to Job.

Job 38:1, 2; "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Job had been tested to the point of losing His entire family, all his property, and had been inflicted by sores and sickness, yet, he did not curse God. He was in a poor frame of mind when God again came to Job.

Job 38:3; Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."

God told Job to straighten up and be a man, and listen to what He is about to tell Job. Then God spells out to Job how He laid out the foundations of the earth and the heaven, and all matters concerning them.

Then for the rest of Job 38 and continuing in Job 39 we can see the same wisdom we read about in Proverbs 8. God told Job how He put the universe all together. Our God is infinite in wisdom and power, Yet His love for His children is so great that He allowed Himself to be killed as a man, on the cross at Calvary. In this love that He demonstrated for His children, He made it possible that we could approach Him as His child for our every need.

This humbled Job before God, as it should to each of us, and He fell apart [Job 40]. God once again told Job to stand "like a man, and give answer to Him".

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

was
1961  hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form"is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]


Excerpt from The Companion Bible Appendix 8:
 
The word "without form" (Hebrew tohu) is used of a subsequent event which, we know not how long after the Creation, befell the primitive creation of Genesis 1:1. It occurs in Genesis 1:2. Deuteronomy 32:10. 1Samuel 12:21 (twice). Job 6:18; 12:24; 26:7. Psalm 107:40. Isaiah 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4. Jeremiah 4:23.
 
The Hebrew bohu, rendered "void", means desolate, and occurs in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.   The two words together occur in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.

end Companion Bible excerpt

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.

When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that.

II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire.

II Peter 3:8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One week is 7000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is "the Millennium age". The Millennium age is the thousand years after Jesus Christ returns to earth at the seventh trumpet to establish his kingdom here on earth. All souls at that time will not be in the flesh bodies, but in another dimension. They will exist in their incorruptible bodies, spoken of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

II Peter 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

That means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about.

II Peter 3:10; "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"A thief in the night" is an figure of speech meaning that Christ will come at an unexpected time. This sounds like a scary time, but what does it say in in the original text, being translated to English? The "elements" are all the "rudiments"; that is the evil spirits, all evil men are part of those rudiments, as well as all forms of idolatry. They will all burn at their appointed time. These elements are not the elements that go to make up the physical properties of this earth. This is addressed only to those things that offend our Heavenly Father.

So we have witnessed in II Peter 3 that there are three earth ages, and three heaven ages that correspond with the earth age periods of time. We see also in Jeremiah 4 that there is another witness to the fact of these three earth ages.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

How many people really know God's Word? There are very few that can quote you anything from the Bible, except those parts that can give them personal gain. The translators were kind to use the word "sottish", for the word means just plain "stupid", or "silly". The nature of mankind today is to "make a buck any way that you can". Their minds are evil constantly, as they were in the days of Noah. However, in the ways of goodness, and doing right, there is a void.

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.

That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.

Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice.

So we have documented from the Bible that there was an earth age prior to this earth age we now live in. God created that first earth age in good standing to be inhabited, as it was written in Isaiah 45:18; then after this it became "without form and void" [in the Hebrew, "Tohu va bohu"].

Why? Because Satan brought sin into the world of that first earth age. and that sin was so great that one third of all God's children followed Satan, and that sin brought God's anger upon the whole world. It was then that Satan was sentenced to the death of his soul. This is why Satan is called the "son of perdition" in II Thessalonians 2:3, and John 17:12. Satan refused to repent, as God allowed him the time to get right with Him.

Verse three starts after the first earth age, after the overthrow by Satan, and after the total destruction of the first earth age and all life forms on it

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, "let there be light:" and there was light."

Almost every verse involving this creation story of Genesis one starts with the words; "And God said.". However in the Hebrew text it says; "And the Magnificent Lord God Almighty". The original text gives God the full Spirit movement, and the most respect possible for our Almighty Father God.

This verse is still in the first day when the light came into being.

https://www.theseason.org/genesis/genesis1.htm

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4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" represents the nation Israel, because this is reminiscent of Yosef's dream:

That is correct, it is Israel. Good work.

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Genesis 37:9-11 (KJV)

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

The "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" and who "was caught up unto God and to His throne" is Yeshua` the Messiah of God. He is the Messiah - the One Anointed to be King "and of His kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke 1:30-33.)See, Revelation 12:5 is JUST about Yeshua` the Messiah, not the rest of us. HE is the FIRSTFRUITS OF THE RESURRECTION; not the 144,000 (like the video suggests)! While there were other resurrections prior to that of the Messiah, it was HIS Resurrection that was unto eternal life!

This is where people have a hard time interpreting Rev 12:1-5, is right here.

The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:9 is "epairó", and the word in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 is "harpazo". These words have two different meanings in context, a lifting up in victory vs being snatched away through a rescue. Jesus didn't need to be snatched away because He already defeated the devil. 

If these passages occurred 2,000 years ago and is only about Jesus then why didn't John use the word "huios" in all three circumstances below. I believe John is describing the child being born as the church (the body of Christ). 

Even Paul said he felt abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8 because he hadn't received his resurrected body yet, and as we can see in Rev 2:26-27, Rev 12:5 the church is being mentioned here as ruling with Christ with an iron scepter.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon) the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son (huios), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon) was snatched up to God and to his throne.

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Regarding Matthew 24:31, LOL! Haven't you figured it out, yet? 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 tells us how we get into the air, and Matthew 24:31 tells us how we get out of the air! (And, since we don't go to some "place" called "Heaven," these two events are in close proximity to each other. The word "heaven," coming from the Greek word "ouranos," means the "sky," particularly the earth's atmosphere, where the clouds, the air, and the wind exist.)

No, if you had watched the video you will see that the main harvest is not the gleanings. These are two different groups of people.

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On 6/23/2018 at 12:05 AM, n2thelight said:

The point many fail to see is that we were in heaven before being born of woman, had satan never sinned we would not had been made flesh.

Shabbat shalom, n2thelight.

Well, if THIS is your starting point, then you have started with a failed theology. We didn't exist before "being born of woman!" It's this "eternal soul" nonsense that has screwed up your thinking. That is the nonsense that you hear from the Bhuddists or those of ancient Egypt! There's NO SUCH THING as "reincarnation," not even a little bit!

We weren't "angelic spiritual beings" before being born! Maybe it's hard for you to imagine a time when you were not in existence, but you have NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF for such a claim! Look at Psalm 139 and what David said:

Psalm 139:13-18 (KJV)

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou (God) hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul (air-breathing creature) knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all my members (body parts) were written, which in continuance ("in the passing of time" = "eventually") were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

You're a good reasoner, but when one starts with faulty premises and assumptions, one will reach faulty conclusions EVERY TIME!

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We were in spiritual bodies in the first earth age,doesn't  mean that we didn't have mass. Scripture states that the flesh goes back to dust.

We don't need that dust to make us whole again,as we were already whole,only reason we needed the flesh was to house the soul.

Nope! See, this IS your mentality, your chain of reasoning! A body doesn't "house the soul"; a body IS the "soul" ("nefesh"); that is, a body IS an "air-breathing creature!" That's what this unfortunate word "soul" means! And, the word "spirit" doesn't give you that "immortal part," either! That's even worse, because the word "spirit" ("ruwach") is simply the impersonal "WIND" or "BREATH" in an individual!

And, your comment about a "first earth age" is also faulty. There is NO SUCH THING as a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2! Genesis 1:1 is a SYNOPSIS of what is to follow! The proof of that is that God NAMES the "heavens" ("shaamayim") and the "earth" ("erets") FOR THE FIRST TIME in the following verses! (See Genesis 1:8 and Genesis 1:10 and compare them both in the Hebrew to Genesis 1:1.)

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What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman?

He didn't HAVE a body before being born of Miryam!

He wasn't called "Christ" then; He was the "WORD!" Furthermore for good measure, He was not "a god"; He was GOD! (There's only one!)

John 1:1-3 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

He is and was the CREATOR!

Isaiah 42:5-8 (KJV)

5 Thus saith God the LORD (Elohiym YHWH), he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the LORD (YHWH😞 that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

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The below is the best I can show.

The Resurrection Body

 


 

In ancient Egypt, Pharaohs drove their slaves to build huge pyramids to house their dead bodies. They filled these tombs with immense treasures of gold and all kinds of utensils that might be of service in their coming life. They cultivated the art of embalming, so that their bodies could be preserved for thousands of years with the least possible amount of decay. It's as if they thought that by taking such elaborate precautions, they could be prepared for the life to come. Apparently, they believed that their souls would one day return into those mummified bodies, and they wanted everything to be ready.

This is a stark contrast with the attitude expressed by Jesus. One of His disciples asked him, "Let me first go bury my father." Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-60). For Jesus, the dead body was of no consequence.

NO! That is also a faulty conclusion based upon a single instance! You've stretched the truth of what Yeshua` said into a conclusion that Yeshua` felt "the dead body was of no consequence!" Nothing could be further from the truth! Did He not stop the funeral procession and raise the widow's son from the dead? Did He not grieve at His friend Elezar's (Lazarus') tomb? Did He not raise His friend from the dead? Don't put words in Yeshua`s mouth!

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For Christians, the focus is not meant to be on the body that has died, but on the spirit that rises into the coming life. For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord, not lying cold and dead in the ground.

Well, because of the influence of Plato through the teachings of Philo and Origen, who were both enamoured by Greek philosophy, "For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord," but that is a teaching that was INTRODUCED INTO the "churches" and was NOT a part of the original teachings of those "churches!" Instead, we were to anticipate the RESURRECTION, a LITERAL, BODILY RESURRECTIONNOT "going to heaven when we die!"

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Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave, and that when a person dies the soul remains unconscious for years or centuries until Christ comes again and brings all the bodies out of the grave and reawakens the souls that are sleeping within those bodies. Yet it is not only more comforting to picture a person rising immediately into the next life after death, but it is also more in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.

This is just twisted. First of all, the original teachings WERE about "a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave," and, yes, I'm one of those "some people." Why do you think we are so looking forward to the Second Coming? That's what His Second Coming is all about!

We often sing "Joy to the World" at Christmas time, but in truth, it is a song about His SECOND Coming ("Second Advent"), not His First Coming ("First Advent")! Just look at the words of the verses of the song! These are not just some flowery words meant to have a "spiritual" (allegorical) meaning! They refer to His LITERAL REIGN during the Millennium - the first One Thousand Years of His reign, when haSatan shall be locked away in the Abyss.

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We Rise Soon after Death

Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.

First, that is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about, and it would be wise to understand that, within this account, Yeshua` used speech that was translated with the Greek word "hadees," pronounced "hah-DACE," that most write "Hades" and pronounce it "HAY-deez." It means the "Unseen." Furthermore, it is about AFTER the Resurrection because the wording of His account is this:

Luke 16:19-31 (KJV modified for conversation)

19 'There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels (messengers) into Abraham's bosom (haven; harbor): the rich man also died, and was buried; ... 23 And in hell (Greek: hadees = the "unseen"; death; the grave) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said,

"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

25 But Abraham said,

"Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence (here) to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence (there)."

27 Then he said,

"I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

29 Abraham saith unto him,

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

30 And he said,

"Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."

31 And he said unto him,

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."'

So, the contextual clues suggest that this is AFTER the Resurrection when Yeshua` returns! Note: First, the rich man was "in hadees," the "unseen," a term for the place of the dead, such as a grave or a tomb or a sepulchre.

Second, the rich man could FEEL PAIN; he was "in torments" and said, "I am tormented in this flame."

Third, he had EYES by which to see! He "lifted up his eyes" and SAW Avraham and Elezar ("Lazarus").

He had a voice and could talk; he could SAY something. He could HEAR the responses of others, just as Avraham could hear his requests.

He had a TONGUE that could be cooled, and Elezar had a FINGER with which he could have dipped it in water and cooled the rich man's tongue, IF he had been able to get to him. It wasn't some "spiritual" body; he WAS a physical body in this state!

The fact that he THOUGHT someone could go back and warn one's family was irrelevant. What was done, was DONE!

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When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Yeshua` didn't NEED to say, "Just wait twenty centuries!" The thief wouldn't have known what a century was like! All Yeshua` had to say to the thief was, "You'll go to sleep, and wake up in the Park."

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Since we rise immediately after death, people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open. For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves.

READ the Scriptures, and BELIEVE what they actually SAY!

Matthew 17:9 (KJV)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Kefa ("Peter") didn't realize what he was seeing and thought he should build three tents for Yeshua`, Mosheh, and Eliyahu. But, this was a VISION of what Yeshua` said was coming:

Matthew 16:28 (KJV)

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

He's not back, yet; so this was ONLY a vision, not the REALITY!

 

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When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19),

Well, if YOU want to be an "old man" in "Heaven," that's YOUR choice, but this is a SPECIAL case. Most mediums are charlatans, fakes, imposters, but the ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH was at work here! It SURPRISED this medium to see Sh'mu'el ("Samuel")!

1 Samuel 28:5-19 (KJV)

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD (YHWH) answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (Hebrew: elohiym = "gods" OR more often "God") ascending out of the earth (Hebrew: ha'arets = "the ground"). 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me (dead and in the ground!): the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

So, again, this is a SPECIAL case and NOT the norm!

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...and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24).

Again, AFTER the SECOND, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION of Revelation 20!

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In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

You need to read on, for this is why there are four accounts of Yeshua`s life!

Mark 12:24-27 (KJV)

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:34-39 (KJV)

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said. 40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

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Angels have sometimes appeared to people whose eyes were opened to see them. Very often, the Bible says that these angels are people. For example, we read that three men appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18: 2), and that when Jacob wrestled with an angel he wrestled with a man (Genesis 32: 24). Likewise, the angels were people who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5: 13-14), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13: 6-11), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9: 2-3,11; 10: 2-3,6), Daniel (Daniel 9: 21; 10: 5; 12: 6-7), Zechariah (Zechariah 1:8,11), and the women at the sepulcher (Mark 16: 5; Luke 24: 4). The Bible says these angels were people, and clearly none of them were still in the grave.

I can agree with you on this point, but not in the WAY that you would like. The Hebrew word "mal'akh" means "messenger," just as does the Greek word "aggelos." And, VERY often in Scripture, such "messengers" ARE INDEED human! In fact and for example, Yochannan the Immerser ("John the Baptist") was called an "aggelos." That doesn't mean he was a "spiritual creature" or in a "spiritual body!" It means that he was a man who was a messenger for God! Prophets, too, were messengers for God, and that is the kind of messenger to which Peter was referring in 1 Peter 1:12, as revealed by 1 Peter 1:10-11:

1 Peter 1:10-12 (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels (messengers) desire to look into.

One needs to use Charles "Tremendous" Jones' acronym: "SIBKIS." "See It Big, Keep It Simple." Why go all ga-ga when the simple explanation will do?

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There Is a Spiritual Body

The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body, while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49).

There is indeed a "spiritual" body, but you need to look at the comparisons in 1 Corinthians 15 more closely.

First of all, we are told that this "spiritual" body is still PHYSICAL! It's a more powerful body! It's raised from the remains of the first physical body, and it is stronger, indestructible, and immortal.

Second, from the comparison of "pneumatikos" to "psuchikos," it is clear that this word "spiritual" does NOT mean "other-worldly" or "non-physical!"

"Psuchikos" is an adjective form of "psuchee," which is often translated as "soul." As I've noted before, "soul," whether from the Hebrew word "nefesh" or the Greek word "psuchee," simply means an "air-breathing creature."

"Pneumatikos" is an adjective form of "pneuma," which is often translated as "spirit." Also, as I've noted before, the Greek word "pneuma," like the Hebrew word "ruwach," means "wind," or BY ANALOGY, "breath."

In fact, Paul QUOTED from Genesis 2:7 in 1 Corinthians 15:45:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man ofthe dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah = "and-became the-man to-an-air-breathing-creature living").

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: 

It is sown in corruption (Greek: fthora = "decay");
it is raised in incorruption (Greek: aftharsia = "indestructibility"): 

43 It is sown in dishonour (Greek: atimia = "without renown"; "unnotable");
it is raised in glory (Greek: doxa = "fame"):

it is sown in weakness (Greek: astheneia = "ineffectiveness");
it is raised in power (Greek: dunamis = "dynamite; power"): 

44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a-body air-breathing");
it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a-body air-blasting").

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan = "Became the first man Adam into an-air-breathing-creature living") ;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun = "the last Adam into a-wind life-giving"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "air-blasting"), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon = "air-breathing"); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon = "air-blasting"). 47 The first man is of the earth (Greek: ek gees = "out-of [the] earth/ground"), earthy (Greek: choikos = "soil-like"); the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out-of [the] sky"). 48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the-[one] soil-like"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "those-[ones] soil-like"); and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the-[one] from-above-[the]-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "those-[ones] from-above-[the]-sky"). 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: tou choikou = "of-the-[one] soil-like"), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: tou epouraniou = "of-the-[one] from-above-[the]-sky").

Note especially that Paul said that the "spiritual" was NOT first; the "air-breathing" was first!

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The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.

The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham; the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).

Both already explained above.

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The body we have in the spiritual world is not the body that we put into the grave. The Bible says that our physical body is corruptible and mortal, which means that it does not last, but rots and dies. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50).

This, however, is NOT what Paul was saying, for we also have this recorded:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(This has been a long time coming. I'll have to finish the rest later.)

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, n2thelight.

Well, if THIS is your starting point, then you have started with a failed theology. We didn't exist before "being born of woman!" It's this "eternal soul" nonsense that has screwed up your thinking. That is the nonsense that you hear from the Bhuddists or those of ancient Egypt! There's NO SUCH THING as "reincarnation," not even a little bit!

We weren't "angelic spiritual beings" before being born! Maybe it's hard for you to imagine a time when you were not in existence, but you have NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF for such a claim! Look at Psalm 139 and what David said:

Job  38:4   "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job  38:5   "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job   38:6   "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job  38:7   "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy?  We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh.  

Are you a son of God?

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

How could He hate Easu before he was born?

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On 6/29/2018 at 4:22 AM, n2thelight said:

Job  38:4   "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job  38:5   "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job   38:6   "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job  38:7   "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy?  We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. 

Shalom, n2thelight.

Sorry, but Job 38 is NOT about the Creation; it's about the RE-FORMING of the earth AFTER THE FLOOD! First, understand that the earth before the Flood was described like this:

Genesis 1:6-13 (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament (raqiya`, an expanse) in the midst (middle) of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament (raqiya`), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Shaamaayim)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So, at this point, we have the SKY ("Shaamaayim"), the earth's atmosphee, sandwiched between the "wters above the expanse" and the "waters below the expanse."

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth ('Erets)"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas (Yammim)": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So, after the third day (what we call Tuesday, today), they had four areas: The Earth (the dry land), the Seas (the waters below the expanse), the Sky (the expanse or atmosphere), and the waters above the expanse.

Then we read that the environment of that first Creation was described like this:

Genesis 2:4-14 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens (haashaamayim) and of the earth (haa'aarets) when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Based on this information, there was no rain before Noach's Flood; therefore, since rain is condensed water in the atmosphere that grows too heavy to remain aloft, and because clouds are condensed water that accumulates on dust particles in the air, there were no clouds before the flood, either. This is reinforced by the fact that the dew point was so low that only a mist could rise during the heat of the day and water the ground.

So, now read on in Iyov's book...

Job 38:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

This portion is talking about the "sea broke forth as if it had issued out of the womb." This is the Flood of Noach's day itself. Observe:

Genesis 7:6-24 (KJV)

6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that [are] not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days,that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the sameday were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and fortynights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the [sur]face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the highhills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upwarddid the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground,both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

So, the waters issued from "all the fountains of the great deep" that were "broken up" BEFORE the rains began to fall! They issued from below and rained from above for 40 days and 40 nights, which, by the way

Continuing on...

Job 38:12-38 (KJV)

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

These are ALL issues about the water cycle of the earth that did NOT exist before the Flood of Noach's day!

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Are you a son of God?

Yes, but I find your question denegrading and patrionizing. Just because I AM a ben-Elohiym, doesn't mean that I'm a "spirit person" or have ever BEEN a "spirit being!" Don't you think that if I had been one of these "spirit beings," I would have remembered being such? What did you learn from being such a person if you can't remember anything about it?! Ridiculous.

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Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Yes, the prophet Yirmeyahu was indeed known before YHWH formed him in the belly. This is simply because the fertilized egg has a way to travel down the fallopian tube until it is embedded in the wall lining of the uterus. From the time of his conception, God ordained him to be a prophet to the nations. This verse is NOT suggesting that he existed PRIOR TO his conception!

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Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

2602 katabolee (kat-al-bol-ay'). From kataballoo; a deposition, i.e. Founding; figuratively, conception -- conceive, foundation.

2598 kataballoo (kat-ab-al'-lo). From kata and balloo; to throw down -- cast down, lay.

2596 kata (kat-ah'). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined) -- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

906 balloo (bal'-lo). A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense) -- arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare rhipto.

and

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

2865 komizoo (kom-id'-zo). From a primary komeoo (to tend, i.e. Take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain) -- bring, receive.

It does NOT mean "the overthrow!" That comes from someone who doesn't know Greek who wants to READ INTO the Scriptures something that isn't there!

It means "before the depositing of the world-system," or "before the world-system was laid down."

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Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

How could He hate Easu before he was born?

The matter is quite simple: God is omniscient; that is, He is all-knowing! Again, there are generally nine months (40 weeks) between the time the child is conceived and the child is born. 

Read the whole thing:

Romans 9:10-13 (KJV)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca [Rivkah] also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac [Yitschaq]; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (Gen. 25:23) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Mal. 1:2-3)

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exo. 33:19) 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo. 9:16) 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"Hatred" here is not an active aggression against someone. It is simply a "leave-them-alone" kind of disinterest! YHWH God decided while the children were still in the womb to work with Ya`aqov (Jacob) and ignore the  built-in entitlement that Esav (Esau) had. He belittled his birthright, and had no interest in the things of God. So, God showed no interest in him.

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