Tribulation is not Wrath

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Still Alive said:

But I could be wrong. Nobody got it right regarding the coming of Jesus 2000 years ago. How are we any better?

I beg to differ. John the Baptist got it right, though he doubted afterwards. The Apostles got it right -- they were ready and waiting, and quickly followed Him.

In like manner, there will be many who will recognize when Daniel 11:40 - 12:1 is coming to pass, among those who are ready and waiting.

 

[Still Alive]

Just now, WilliamL said:

I beg to differ. John the Baptist got it right, though he doubted afterwards. The Apostles got it right -- they were ready and waiting, and quickly followed Him.

In like manner, there will be many who will recognize when Daniel 11:40 - 12:1 is coming to pass, among those who are ready and waiting.

 

In all cases, they got it right DURING the event. None of them really knew exactly what they were waiting for. They were ready and waiting, though. And we should be too. But for me that doesn't mean arguing specifics about the color of the hair of Locusts or finer details as a sort of predicting the future. Rather, be ready and waiting so that, though I don't fully understand now, it will be very clear when it does happen, that it is, in fact, happening.

And the Kingdom of God is here and has been here since Jesus' death and resurrection. But this is only its first (or second) age, with more (probably many more) to come.

[Alan Hales]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 3:26 PM, Last Daze said:

I've heard some people say that tribulation is the same thing as wrath and that the words can be used interchangeably.  However, after doing some digging, I've found out that such a claim is simply not true.  Here are the Greek words for each and the definitions:

~~~~~

Tribulation

θλῖψις thlîpsis - pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Wrath

ὀργή orgḗ - properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

~~~~~

The words tribulation and wrath come from different Greek words and have different meanings.  I couldn't find anywhere that the Greek word for tribulation is ever translated wrath, or vice-versa.  If they are the same words, or similar, you'd expect some overlap in the translations or semantics but I couldn't find any.

I've yet to hear a rational explanation as to why they mean the same thing when they're clearly different.  Granted, both tribulation and wrath are similar in that they are unpleasant when experienced but does that make them the same?  No.  Is a hurricane the same thing as a tsunami because they both cause flooding?

I would encourage those who are interested in end time prophecy to make this distinction that scripture makes between these two words in order to get a clearer understanding of the things to come.  Those who believe that tribulation and wrath are the same thing, can you explain why?  They certainly look distinctly different to me, but maybe I've missed something.

The "Tribulation period", is the dispensation of Wrath, The devil's wrath against those who refuse the mark of the beast, Rev 12: 12. and then God's wrath against those who receive the mark of the beast. Rev 15: 7. & Rev 16: 1--2.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

I will start by saying [I can now hear simultaneous oohing and aahing (cheering and booing) going on from the audience] that tribulation is indeed part of the wrath of God.   

This just looks like an attempt to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

In other words it's concocting a truth from nothing. 

At the time of the end GT and the wrath of the Lamb are very different.

You'll see this when the time comes. If it comes in our lifetime. I have a feeling it will.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

By not addressing any of the many scriptures that i provided,  your words provide this forum with nothing more than a baseless accusation. 

The PuP 

Well, what would be the point? You said you changed your mind. Much has been said about this topic in this thread already. People have chosen the idea they like best and, Viola! Case closed.

If you REALLY think wrath and GT are the same then you're in a large group, and I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Fact is, manipulating scripture in support of a belief is just nonsense. 

I don't think for a minute you are unaware of my words on this subject. They won't change. So no point in trying to change that silk purse back.

 

[Behold]

15 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

You're right: God doesn't direct His anger at the righteous. That's why He removes the Church at the beginning of the Tribulation.

Christ was slain on the earth so that no judgment for SIN will fall on the born again in eternity.

When Yeshua said, "if possible, let this CUP pass from me".....He was speaking of the eternal wrath of God, against sin, waiting to be poured out against the innocent One, on our behalf.

God will NEVER judge a born again believer in Eternity, because He has already judged His Son down here.

One judgment for sin, (The Cross), provided one eternal salvation for  "any and all  who will come".

"To anyone who worketh not, but BELIEVETH ON GOD who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY = their FAITH FAITH FAITH FAITH shall be COUNTED/Accepted, as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

You take Christ, and God takes you.

> Salvation.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Behold

[OldCoot]

On 9/2/2018 at 8:13 PM, Da Puppers said:

Two questions. 

1.  Do you believe God can and has directed his wrath only at the children of Israel? 

2.  Do you believe that the focus of the great tribulation, as wrath,  is initially only directed at Israel (her people and land)?

Blessings

The PuP 

 

It would be too narrow
to view only Israel as a target.   It seems pretty clear from both OT and NT that the focus is the entire world.  Now it is true that Israel is key in all of this.  They need to be brought around so that Hosea 5:15 can be fulfilled just as Yeshua said in Matthew 23:39...

Hosea 5:15 (NASB) I will go away and return to My place
Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

Matthew 23:39 (NASB) For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is HE who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV Strong's) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

But the scripture also lays out that even after enduring many of these events, the majority of the rest of the world still won't repent.  That implies that the focus of many of these calamities is to also get the world to turn about.  Unfortunately, many won't.

Revelation 9:20-21 (NKJV) But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 (NKJV ) And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

 

[OldCoot]

On 9/2/2018 at 7:46 PM, Behold said:

Christ was slain on the earth so that no judgment for SIN will fall on the born again in eternity.

When Yeshua said, "if possible, let this CUP pass from me".....He was speaking of the eternal wrath of God, against sin, waiting to be poured out against the innocent One, on our behalf.

God will NEVER judge a born again believer in Eternity, because He has already judged His Son down here.

One judgment for sin, (The Cross), provided one eternal salvation for  "any and all  who will come".

"To anyone who worketh not, but BELIEVETH ON GOD who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY = their FAITH FAITH FAITH FAITH shall be COUNTED/Accepted, as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

You take Christ, and God takes you.

> Salvation.

You seem to be implying that the focus of not being under judgement is only after this existence. In eternity being judgement free, but not here.  Maybe I am reading that all wrong.

I have always understood being redeemed as having passed from death to life and therefore under no condemnation in any way.  Now or later.

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

Well, I see the wrath starting at seal number 1.  It is Yeshua who is opening those seals and the those in the world are wanting to hide themselves from the wrath of the Lamb by Seal 6.  Yeshua is God.  He is opening the seals, which by implication means that none of the seal events would have occurred had He not opened them.  The first 5 seals seem to be happening in rapid succession, and the people of the earth are aware by seal 6 that this is all the wrath of the Lamb.

The Lamb, Yeshua, the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega is who is opening those seals.  

Isaiah 44:6 (NKJV) “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God

Revelation 22:13 (NKJV) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

Revelation 2:8 (NKJV Strong's) And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

All of the seals, trumpets, vials, everything is at the direction of God.  To delineate events as some being the wrath of the Lamb and some wrath of God is to misunderstand who Yeshua is.  

And regarding those events of the seals, the Lord uses terminology in Isaiah 13, Hebrew "gibbor", that suggests the same things will happen as did in Genesis 6.  The horsemen of the seals could be something that many have not considered.   The Septuagint version of the scripture seems to illuminate this well....

Isaiah 13:3 (NETS) It is I who instruct, and I lead them;
[they have been consecrated,] and it is I who summon them.
Mighty ones come to fulfill my wrath,
at the same time rejoicing and reviling.

The Mighty Ones is the same term used of the bizarre offspring in Genesis 6:4.  

Genesis 6:4 (NASB) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Again, in the Septuagint...

Genesis 6:4 (NETS) Now the giants were on the earth in those days and afterward. When the sons of God used to go in to the daughters of humans, then they produced offspring for themselves. Those were the giants that were of old, the renowned humans.

And Daniel seems to confirm that this nonsense will happen again at the time of the end.....

Daniel 2:43 (NKJV) As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

For something to mix with the seed of men, it must be something other than the seed of men.  it is likely the very same kind of nonsense is going on at the time of the end as it did in Genesis 6.  After all, Yeshua stated as such....

Matthew 24:37 (NKJV) But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

It should not be difficult to see that the entire time from seal 1 on is at the hand of God.  Not comfortable for many to consider how this plays out, but then, the Lord is not in the comfort game except when it comes to His own.

Edited September 6, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You are resorting to unnecessary private interpretation of prophecy. 

You mean like you?   What I stated is hardly private and hardly new.  It has been held by many expositors of scripture.  And I did list verses as well.  That you don't see it does not make is wrong.  You are not the sole arbiter of bible exegesis.

The passage you mention in Exekiel 14 more likely applies to the destruction in 70 AD of Jerusalem.  Ezekiel 36-37 applies to Israel today.  And the Lord makes it very clear that once Israel is brought back the second time (Isaiah 11:11), it will never again be scattered.   The attacks on modern Israel occur after Ezekiel 36-37.  And none is successful in destroying Israel, for the Lord will go forth and destroy those who come against the nation.

The false messiah sets up his image in the Temple at the mid point of the 7 years.  The people are told to flee Jerusalem at that point (Matthew 24:15). The 2 witnesses are killed and laid out on the streets of Jerusalem.  Jerusalem is not destroyed, nor Israel.   And it is only later after that when the armies of the nations come against Israel, but they are destroyed in the valley of Meggido before they can attack.

But it still remains..... everything from seal one is  by the Lord's hand. Either directly or indirectly.  So the wrath of God starts at seal 1.   Seal 6 is where it specifically says the "wrath of the Lamb" but it is the same scroll, the same seals.  And the Lamb is the "First and the Last who was dead and is alive."  YHVH is the First and the Last in Isaiah.  So, wrath of the Lamb is the same as the wrath of God.

Edited September 6, 2018 by OldCoot