The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Where is Judah?

I ask because the rapture is predicated upon Israel and the  Church being separate,which by the way is not true.

The two house won't be joined back until the return of Christ,so does that happen at the rapture or the 2nd coming?

When the Ezekiel "STICKS PROPHECY" comes true s not relevant to the Church in any way, shape, fashion or form.

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The generation was when Israel became a state,parable of the fig tree

Actually the "Generation" has nothing to do with when Israel was born per se, its when ALL OF THE SIGNS are seen, thus the Generation that sees every sign in Matthew 24 will be the Generation that will see the Second Coming. Seems you missed my whole point, which was just me thinking out loud about a possible new concept anyway. It takes me months sometimes to dig these truths out, at other time the Holy Spirit shows me pronto.

But the point was, if the Jews had accepted Christ the Fourth Beast's Little Horn might have come forth 2000 years ago, the Statue might have been completed 2000 years ago and of course the Jews would have Repented during the 70th Week  via Gods original plans, 2000 years ago. Thus the GENERATION who would have seen the Second Coming would have and could have been the Generation of Jesus' time.

IF.......the Church Age had not of been needed. But since the Jews rejected Christ, God turned to the Gentiles to take His Gospel unto the World. Of course God knows the future and knew what was going to happen, Gods desired plans is not always the ACTIONS he must take, see the Great Flood. God had an INTENDED PLAN, but His chosen people chose to serve FALSE GODS all along the way. Thus the Gentles were saved not by the Jewish State via God/Jesus so to speak, but by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Second Coming is foretold in Ezekiel as the other Nations coming unto Israel and making offerings continually. 

When I say things like what if, or I am studying these things, I have come to no determined understanding. Most of the time to be honest I never mention things I am mulling over for this very reason, it might confuse others as to what I believe, which as you know I have no problem sharing once the Holy Spirit gives me something.

I do understand the Gentile Church was not Gods desire, He desired Israel to honor him and to bring His message unto the whole world via Israel. But of course Israel was a Harlot Nation who loved serving false gods.

[Heb 13:8]

36 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Actually the "Generation" has nothing to do with when Israel was born per se, its when ALL OF THE SIGNS are seen, thus the Generation that sees every sign in Matthew 24 will be the Generation that will see the Second Coming.

and that generation is inside a time frame, the same time frame where the Rev 12 sign and blood moon tetrads appeared, less we wait another 50 years?

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation
Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Isa 66:7-9
“Before she goes into labor,

she gives birth;

before the pains come upon her,

she delivers a son.

8Who has ever heard of such things?

Who has ever seen things like this?

Can a country be born in a day

or a nation be brought forth in a moment?

Yet no sooner is Zion in labor

than she gives birth to her children.

9Do I bring to the moment of birth

and not give delivery?” says the Lord.

“Do I close up the womb

when I bring to delivery?” says your God.

 

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The time of the Gentiles is over when Christ feet hit the ground,at the 7th and last trump.

For Starters the Trumps have nothing to do with Jesus' feet hitting the ground, that happens via the 7th Vial being poured out. The reason you misunderstand this is Rev. 11, you don't understand that the SEVENTH SEAL has all the Trumpets and Vials that come out of it, and the 5th Trumpet is the 1st Woe, the 6th Trumpet is the 2nd Woe and the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe. Thus the 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials, thus Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives after the 7th Vial is poured out. BUT...In Rev. 11 we are on;y told what TRIGGERS the 3rd Woe (7th Trumpet). 

As for the Time of the Gentiles quip, Wrong brother, its speaking about the insertion of the Church into the PLACE where God originally placed Israel n His plans, WHY ELSE would Paul have mentioned that Israel is BLINDED until the Gentiles time is up? If its about the WICKED GENTILES ruling the earth then God could open Israel's eyes whenever they Repented and turned unto him, BUT...its about the Gentile Church who have taken the place of Israel in revealing the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the world. WHY? Because Israel rejected God and Jesus, they do not believe on Jesus so how could they take this message unto all the world ? 

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

It has nothing to do with Israel being BLINDED because of the Wicked Gentiles ruling over them, they were BLINDED because of UNBELIEF and thus God had to CHOOSE ANOTHER VEHICLE (Gentile Church) to take the Gospel unto all the world. So they will be BLINDED until the Gentile Church s Raptured. 

The Gentiles will still be on earth after the Second Coming, the bring gifts up unto Jesus every year. 

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

So when does Paul say they will be GRAFTED back in ? When they pit off UNBELIEF !! And Paul warns the Romans, to not follow down the same road as the Jews or they will suffer the same consequences. 

Malachi 4:5-6 tells is that Israel REPENT...BEFORE the Day of the Lord which starts at the 1260 Event or the Midway point of the 70th Week. So that is when Israel REPENTS, when the Two-witnesses show up. Since the Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast then they MUST show up BEFORE the Beast shows up at the 1260 Event. It all makes perfect sense because its of God !! That is why every thing fits.

Here we are in Romans and the whole passage is about Israel being CUT OFF and BLINDED because of UNBELIEF, and for some reason people can't grasp its because the Mantle has been taken from the OLDER (Israel/Jews) and Given unto the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) just like Jacob and Esau which is SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED in Romans 9 as a part of this Three Chapter Passage (Romans 9-11 all goes together). 

Try rereading Romans 9-11 all together. Why do you think Paul tells the story about Esau and Jacob ? God took the Mantle from Esau and gave it to Jacob. The Elder will SERVE the YOUNGER !! When the time of the Gentiles is up, it will be the Gentile Church, not the Gentiles of the World. 

[Heb 13:8]

17 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

When the time of the Gentiles is up, it will be the Gentile Church, not the Gentiles of the World. 

is probably why you can't explain Luke 21:20-28? ?

[Revelation Man]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:43 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No, Jesus was not harpazo'd to heaven. The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:9 is "epairó", and the word in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 is "harpazo". These words have two different meanings in context, a lifting up in victory vs being snatched away through a rescue. Jesus didn't need to be snatched away because He already defeated the devil. 

Quote

You get way to hung up on what words are being used and way overthink things, just like I proved via the Rev. 12:4-5 passages. I have studied all of the root words like you, but when we quibble over mild variances to prove a point I think we go off the deep end most of the time. 

epairo

1) to lift up, raise up, raise on high

---------------------------

harpazo

1) to seize, carry off by force

Quibbling about these two just drives me crazy, both can be true, and different writers can chose different words of expression. 

If the Holy Spirit HAPAZOED Jesus to Heaven didn't he have to be LIFTED UP/RAISED UP ? I mean come on man.

On 7/7/2018 at 2:43 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Well, amusement comes through lack of knowledge, no?

Matt 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son (teknon); your sins are forgiven."

1 Thess 5:5 You are all children (huios) of the light and children ( huios) of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

1 Jhn 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children (teknon) of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

NO.....

a·muse·ment

əˈmyo͞ozmənt/

noun

the state or experience of finding something funny.

As I so eloquently stated already, the Genealogies were always about the SONS...So the word CHILD always meant the MALE CHILD thus it did not need to be differentiated. Its was irrelevant, all three times pointed to a MALE CHILD, because FEMALE children were never or rarely mentioned in the Genealogies of the time. Those are JUST FACTS. So you are pointing out something that is meaningless in all reality. 

But you just dodge that most salient point and jump through more hoops. 

On 7/7/2018 at 2:43 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the Rev 12 sign is using corporate entities, not singular. The constellations are parallel to astronomy, not astrology.

1. Woman - Israel
2. Child - Body of Christ
3. Dragon - Antichrist system

Job 9:9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Job 38:32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

When Zodiac Signs are being used to describe this "SUPPOSED EVENT" its of Satan. I studied the whole thing IN DEPTH at the time and called it silly and not of God as per these supposed signs. I explained what it means, its not even that hard to understand it. Again, you are overthinking this, God is telling us exactly what it means. Its all about Israel being PROTECTED by God in the Wilderness for 1260 Days. 

Its Israel being chased into Wilderness by the Anti-Christ who is being driven by Satan the Dragon. Its not that complicated. 

Now tell me what this sign in Rev. 15:1 means sir. Is this sign BELOW another Constellation ? Or is it just John seeing a VISION like in Rev. ch. 12 ? Of course the CODE is in Genesis 37:9, it has nothing to do with a Constellation in the sky, its a VISION, just like Rev. ch. 15 below.

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

On 7/7/2018 at 2:43 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No, Luke 21:20-28 is referring to the latter half of the 70th week. God bless.

Like I stated, when the Gentiles time is fulfilled Israel will then be back on the Clock. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

On 7/5/2018 at 2:39 PM, Revelation Man said:

Of course it means the Departure of the church, just like my post at the top describes very clearly.

I suggest you have received strong delusion here, even though God was nit speaking about Christians, but I'll play along anyway. 

The facts are the facts. Word-smithing doesn't change the facts. If it meant a DEPARTURE of the Faith then why is only a GATHERING UNTO Christ Jesus spoken about in the passage, but nothing about the FAITH being Departed is spoken of. 

It clearly means the Church must Depart before the Anti-Christ can come forth, thus they NEED NOT FEAR the Day of the Lord....Hence Don't fear!! Do you think Paul lied unto them? The problem of course is you have it all backwards, so you can't fit the puzzle together.

Hi Ron....

I'm sure that you can agree that 1Cor 15:51-52 is referring to the rapture......

"Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

Now add to this Math 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

The mention of the "great trumpet" occurs AFTER the "tribulation of those days".

Either this is the same as the "last trumpet" in 1Cor 15:51-52.......and if not, the real last trumpet occurs even later (in order to be last) which is still after the tribulation. Since the rapture occurs at the last trumpet, its after the tribulation.

How could anyone be raptured at the sound of the trumpet before the tribulation???

The scariest part about the pretribulation rapture is that it promotes the concept that people will be given a second chance to repent and make things right with the Lord. They are told that the righteous will be taken away and that they will have seven years to find their faith and redeem their souls.

This concept is going to leave people confused and force them to believe other deceptions when they find themselves in the tribulation....without a rapture.

And that is why there will be a great falling away....as Paul talked about in 2Thes 2:3. 

Something like 90% of Christendom have been taught pretrib rapture. 90%!!!!!! ......And that is also why Jesus talked about deception in the last days.

" And many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many".....Math 24:11

You would actually be better off in teaching that the believers will face the Antichrist, and go thru the tribulation....(but not the wrath of God)......so that they can get their full armor on. And, if you're wrong, so what. You'll be zapped outta here before the SHTF......

On the other hand, if you teach the pretrib rapture, and it doesn't come to pass, then your followers will be ill-prepared for what's ahead. And they'll say...." He was wrong about the rapture, what else is he wrong about...." And the fallout begins

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

I believe this will be Satan's greatest feat........To deceive the church in the end times. 

 

 

[n2thelight]

52 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I believe this will be Satan's greatest feat........To deceive the church in the end times. 

That's exactly what it's going to be,that's what the tribulation is all about,deception,satan pretending to be Christ.

That's why this rapture is so dangerous,as many will think satan is Christ

[Heb 13:8]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

harpazo

1) to seize, carry off by force

Quibbling about these two just drives me crazy, both can be true, and different writers can chose different words of expression. 

If the Holy Spirit HAPAZOED Jesus to Heaven didn't he have to be LIFTED UP/RAISED UP ? I mean come on man.

RM, look at your definition of harpazo. Did Jesus have to be carried off by force or be obtained by robbery? No, He had already defeated the devil. Now look below. Isn't robbery and thief not synonymous? Isn't that what the rapture is gonna be like to the world??

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

Quote

As I so eloquently stated already, the Genealogies were always about the SONS...So the word CHILD always mean the MALE CHILD thus it did not need to be differentiated. Its was irrelevant, all three times pointed to a MAKE CHILD, because FEMALE children were never or rarely mentioned in the Genealogies of the time. Those are JUST FACTS. So you are pointing out something that is meaningless in all reality. 

But you just dodge that most salient point and jump through more hoops. 

Ok, then find one passage that shows "teknon" as Jesus Christ himself. I believe there's 99 references that have "teknon" describing either the church or believers in the church. I see John connecting the head with the body through first resurrection and rapture by using huios and teknon, Col 1:18.

Quote

When Zodiac Signs are being used to describe this "SUPPOSED EVENT" its of Satan. I studied the whole thing IN DEPTH at the time and called it silly and not of God as per these supposed signs. I explained what it means, its not even that hard to understand it. Again, you are overthinking this, God is telling us exactly what it means. Its all about Israel being PROTECTED by God in the Wilderness for 1260 Days. 

Its Israel being chased into Wilderness by the Anti-Christ who is being driven by Satan the Dragon. Its not that complicated. 

Now tell me what this sign means sir. Is this sign BELOW another Constellation ? Or is it just John seeing a VISION like in Rev. ch. 12 ? Of course the SIGN is in Genesis 37:9, it has nothing to do with a Constellation in the sky, its a VISION, just like Rev. ch. 15 below.

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Ok, so first you say it's a prophecy from 2,000 years ago, then you say it's about future Israel in the wilderness. And I'm confused?

Visions have meanings, and the entire chapter of Rev 12 is about the 70th week of Daniel from start to finish. The woman is Israel, the child being born is the body of Christ through rapture and the dragon is the antichrist system in Rev 13. The church was conceived at Pentecost 2000 years ago and is waiting to be born through first resurrection and rapture.

Even Paul said he felt abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8 because he hadn't received his resurrected body yet, and as we can see in Rev 2:26-27, Rev 12:5 the church is being mentioned here as ruling with Christ with an iron scepter.

Quote

Like I stated, when the Gentiles time is fulfilled Israel will then be back on the Clock.

fulfilled, which is the end of the 70th week. Luke 21:20-28 is referring to the AofD all the way to the second coming.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Heb 13:8

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Ron....

I'm sure that you can agree that 1Cor 15:51-52 is referring to the rapture......

"Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

Now add to this Math 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

The mention of the "great trumpet" occurs AFTER the "tribulation of those days".

Either this is the same as the "last trumpet" in 1Cor 15:51-52.......and if not, the real last trumpet occurs even later (in order to be last) which is still after the tribulation. Since the rapture occurs at the last trumpet, its after the tribulation.

How could anyone be raptured at the sound of the trumpet before the tribulation???

The scariest part about the pretribulation rapture is that it promotes the concept that people will be given a second chance to repent and make things right with the Lord. They are told that the righteous will be taken away and that they will have seven years to find their faith and redeem their souls.

This concept is going to leave people confused and force them to believe other deceptions when they find themselves in the tribulation....without a rapture.

And that is why there will be a great falling away....as Paul talked about in 2Thes 2:3. 

Something like 90% of Christendom have been taught pretrib rapture. 90%!!!!!! ......And that is also why Jesus talked about deception in the last days.

" And many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many".....Math 24:11

You would actually be better off in teaching that the believers will face the Antichrist, and go thru the tribulation....(but not the wrath of God)......so that they can get their full armor on. And, if you're wrong, so what. You'll be zapped outta here before the SHTF......

On the other hand, if you teach the pretrib rapture, and it doesn't come to pass, then your followers will be ill-prepared for what's ahead. And they'll say...." He was wrong about the rapture, what else is he wrong about...." And the fallout begins

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

I believe this will be Satan's greatest feat........To deceive the church in the end times. 

 

 

If the trumpet at the rapture will be the "last" trumpet ever, then God just send angels to gather all trumpets from the earth, then erase the memory of trumpets from all people, so no trumpet could be created again - else SURELY someone would sound a trumpet during the millennial reign of Christ, or into eternity after! Oh, I guess all trumpets would have to be removed from heaven also, because this is the "last" trump.

Do you see how silly it is to make "last" mean the last ever for all eternity and for all locations?  The truth it, the "last trump" is the last OF A SERIES. But it does not have to be the last series of trumps ever to sound! 

The truth is, at the feast of trumpets, there is a "last" long trumpet blast that ENDS the feast of trumpets. And the truth is, some 3.5 years after that last trump of the feast of trumpets, the 7 trumpets of revelation begin to sound -  a DIFFERENT SERIES of trumpets.

The truth is, Jesus WILL come for His church, and a trumpet will sound, but Paul tells us this event will come before the Day of the Lord and as the trigger for the Day. If we find where that fits in Revelation, the rapture will take place between the 5th and 6th seal, and perhaps a second before the 6th seal which starts God's wrath.

Paul tells us that at this sudden event, two groups of people get two different results: those living in darkness live through (or die) the "Sudden Destruction" earthquake, while those living in the light of Jesus Christ get raptured, and so MISS the wrath of God.  This sudden destruction earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. The earthquake will also be the opening of the Day of the Lord, and the start of God's wrath on earth.

It was then not a mistake that God showed John the raptured church in the throne room of heaven in Rev. 7 as the great crowd too large to number. 

Just to refresh your memory, chapter 7 will take place before the week even begins, while Jesus coming as shown in chapter 19 comes AFTER the 70th week has finished. 

Therefore His SECOND coming will be just before the 6th seal, and His THIRD coming in power and glory will be over 7 years later. 

[Adstar]

On 6/22/2018 at 2:41 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Let's try to stay on topic. 

1 Thess 5:4 says they will not be surprised like a thief.

For example, what if Joe Bob who is a believer in Christ lives in the mountains and chooses not to have internet or tv. Not only that, but he no longer has any friends or family who are believers. The only thing he clings too is his Bible and his faith. Will Joe Bob be surprised like a thief because he didn't watch the right youtube video on the rapture or he didn't read the right article in a Christian magazine.

Because according to 1 Thess 5:1, 4, believers do not need scripture, times and seasons told to them when that day comes (the Day of the Lord).

God will ensure the one who have His Holy Spirit with them will know that the times of His return has arrived...  God can ensure that a Christian has access to the scriptures and even if they only read it once or only look online once, the Holy Spirit will cause them to remember and understand it when the time comes when they need to understand it..

What one needs.. And what God chooses to give to one can be two different things..