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The context of 1 Thess 5:1


Heb 13:8

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4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

RM, you had stated that they find peace after they repent, and you said they repent prior to the 70th week. Correct?

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The Church Repented 2000 years ago and Jesus said what? You will ALWAYS HAVE TRIBULATION. John in Rev. ch. 1 said to the 7 Churches, I am your brother in TRIBULATION. Repentance doesn't bring PEACE per se. We will have the peace of Christ in our hearts and we will eventually have peace with Christ Jesus/God at some point, but no one that understands prophecy thinks this peace will happen on earth until Jesus' Second Coming. The 1/3 of the Jews will be protected by God in Petra, but I don't call it Peace when many of your kin folks are being slaughtered. 

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

How is fleeing into the mountains to avoid the antichrist peaceful? If they've repented then why are they re-building the third temple for the antichrist?

Again, the PEACE QUIP comes from you, you are not understanding the PEACE spoken of in those verses you cited are speaking about a point in time after the SECOND COMING. You seemingly think we repentance come automatic peace but the Church REPENTED and still had tribulations, the Church only has peace after the Rapture to be with Jesus, likewise Israel will have PEACE when Jesus Returns, in both instances the presence of the Lord Jesus is required, we have PEACE OF MIND & SPIRIT with the Holy Spirit, but the Peace being described in those verses you cite is speaking about the 1000 year reign. The netter question is why do you think Israel has Peace before the Second Coming? They don't.

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

They've read Dan 9. Did Israel repent after they listened to God in Exod 14. No, they instead worshiped a golden calf in Exod 32.

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No, they have REPENTED Just like Malachi 4:5-6 says. That is why they Heed Jesus' voice. Why do you want to ignore Malachi ? 

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1-2 ( naos )

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2 Thess. 2 is all about the Church departing before the Anti-Christ can be RELEASED to come forth. Rev. 11:1-2 has nothing to do with a Greek temple the book was just written in Greek. Those two verses are a METAPHOR for the Two-witnesses, they are to preach to the Jews (inner sanctum/Alter) but not unto the Gentiles. Remember how Jesus' Ministry was to the Jews only? Thus the Two-witnesses have likewise been called unto the Jews only. The Holy Spirit will call the Gentiles unto Repentance. Some do come to repent, they are the Beheaded unto the Alter in the 5th Seal. 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Because the end is the end.

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The 1000 year Reign isn't even the end. They are TRIED BY THE FIRE because they Repent and HEED Jesus words via FAITH !! We all live by Faith.

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rom 11:28-29 is referring to the calling of the elect, not Israel.

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Thus you totally miss the Rapture of the Gentile Elect, then the OPENING OF Israel's EYES, they are also the ELECT, anyone that BELIEVES in Christ is thus ELECTED unto Heaven. Thus the Jews who REPENT are just as ELECT as you are I, its not up to us to tell God how/what/when to do His calling home of His people. All because I bet you do not understand "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" well it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there are Jews and Gentiles, just like there are Geeks and American today. Paul is only speaking of how we all come unto God via FAITH ALONE !! We must all be SAVED in the exact same manner. But Gods TIMING is His business. He will call Israel unto REPENTANCE after the Church has been Raptured. FACTUAL. 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Do you believe that not every believer will be a martyr in the 70th week?

 

Those Jews who REPENT and HEED Jesus' call to Flee unto Petra will be PROTECTED. The Church is PROTECTED in Heaven, those Gentile Christians who come unto Christ during the 70th Week will be killed. The are the Martyrs under the Alter. WHY? Because God Promised Abraham a Continua SEED Forever, that is why, God can not lie !! 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

 Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles

You changing/swapping bibles doesn't move me. I use two, the KJV and usually the Holman. Swapping to male a point has the opposite affect on me, I know what the fullness of the Gentiles mean, it means until their Ministry has come full........THE RAPTURE does away with the Gentile Church on earths Ministry. The Two-witnesses take over.

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

It seems to me that Israel is being delivered from the dragon in the latter 3.5 years.

 Rom 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer (rhuomai) will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Rev 12:14-16 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Romans 11:26 has nothing to do with these passages. Its speaking about Christ Jesus DELIVERING Israel from Son, its a SPIRITUAL DELIVERANCE, thus only 1/3 accept it. As per Rev. ch. 12, Satan (Dragon) ca chase no one, hes a Demon, of course he gets the Anti-Christ to come after Israel, just like he gt King Herod to come after the Baby Jesus trying to kill all Children under 2 years old. 

God Protects her for 1260 Days in Petra/Wilderness, so she Flees at the 1290 which is 30 days before the 1260. It means 1290 Days until Jesus' Second Coming. The Flood means an ARMY, not a River of water. God Protects her then the Dragon via the Anti-Christ/Beast comes after who ? The REMNANT CHURCH, whom of course he KILLS OFF.

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The law doesn't keep a believer saved, the blood of Christ does.

That was not the POINT........The Point was the Covenant via Jesus Christ was the ORIGINAL COVENANT, the Law Covenant was added 430 years later. 

The Original Covenant with Abraham had ZERO to do with the Law..........Absolutely NOTHING !! 

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5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, Matt 24:31 and 2 Thess 2 are referring to the second coming, not rapture.

No, Matt. 24:31 is the Second Coming..........2 Thess. 2 is the Rapture. 

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1100 years.

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13 hours ago, n2thelight said:

You all (rapturist)say that,why is it you never take in account that those days were cut short?Fact is the time is cut to 5 months,ie,the time of the locust.

Bottom line,ain't no rapture...

Nothing is cut short, God doesn't have to plan twice....He cut the END TIMES to SEVEN YEARS because that was God's understanding of how long He could allow the Wrath of God to go on. The Beast is allowed to rule 3.5 Years or 42 Months, any longer and all humans would have been wiped out. 

 

13 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Rapture is in 1 Thess 4:17"

 

You are correct

The Rapture is many places, 1 Cor. 15, Rev. 4:1, 1 Thess. 4:17, the 2 Thess. 2 chapter is explaining that the CHURCH MUST DEPART before the Man of Sin can come onto the scene. So it is speaking about an EVENT (The Anti-Christ coming forth) that CAN NOT HAPPEN.........Until the Rapture. That is a fact. 

12 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

and also Rev 12:5

13 hours ago, n2thelight said:

That is NOT THE RAPTURE, that happens during the 70th Week. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is many places, 1 Cor. 15, Rev. 4:1, 1 Thess. 4:17, the 2 Thess. 2 chapter is explaining that the CHURCH MUST DEPART before the Man of Sin can come onto the scene. So it is speaking about an EVENT (The Anti-Christ coming forth) that CAN NOT HAPPEN.........Until the Rapture. That is a fact. 

Yet the verse you gave states Christ will not return until the antichrist is revealed.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

So how can there be a rapture before the above verse?

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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is many places, 1 Cor. 15, Rev. 4:1, 1 Thess. 4:17, the 2 Thess. 2 chapter is explaining that the CHURCH MUST DEPART before the Man of Sin can come onto the scene. So it is speaking about an EVENT (The Anti-Christ coming forth) that CAN NOT HAPPEN.........Until the Rapture. That is a fact. 

Where does any of those verses say such a thing?

Edited by n2thelight
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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Nothing is cit short, God does't have to plan twice....He cut the END TIMES to SEVEN YEARS because that was God's understanding of how long He could allow the Wrath of God to go on. The Beast is allowed to rule 3.5 Years or 42 Months, any longer and all humans would have been wiped out. 

 

He cut the time of the tribulation short

Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

The verse clearly states the tribulation was cut short.

But since you all claim this is written to the Jew's why worry anyway,right? Yet the below says

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Another thing,since Mark 13 gives all of the seals from revelation when in Revelation does Christ return?

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Jesus Christ is here now .... you just cannot see Him .... He s always present 

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9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Yet the verse you gave states Christ will not return until the antichrist is revealed.

 II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

So how can there be a rapture before the above verse?

No it doesn't, Satan has just twisted and confused people as he is want to do. Read my post at the top....."Is the Falling away a false teaching" 

The whole passage is about the Church DEPARTING from the earth to go be with the Lord, and thus we will no face Gods Wrath. Paul is telling the Thessalonians this to assuage their fears, someone has told then they are going to go trough the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath, and Paul is saying:

(A.) HEY..LOOK GUYS, don't fall for these lies or be troubled by these lies, by any spirit, word or even by a LETTER AS IF IT WAS FROM US telling you that the Day of the Lord is at Hand !! (Gods Wrath). 

So what should we tale from this? People were telling the Thessalonians that they were going to go through Gods Wrath, and it seems someone was saying this is what Paul is preaching now, or lied and said they had Paul's Authority to teach this bunk. Paul says ITS A LIE. 

(B.) Back to the very first first verse, back then they wrote in odd ways, but its clear they were starting the letter with the ANSWER. We Beseech you or we urge you fervently by the GATHERING (or because of the GATHERING) TOGETHER UNTO Christ Jesus NOT TO BE AFRAID...........Of what? Of going through the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath..........BUT WHY..........Verse 1 tells us, because we are gong to be Raptured unto the Lord !! 

If people can't understand the KJV, I suggest reading the Holman version (HCSB). 

(C.) Let no one DECEIVE YOU (Thessalonians) by any means (Letter, word or spirit) for THAT DAY (DOTL/Gods Wrath) shall NOT COME except there come a DEPARTURE [OF THE CHURCH] First, and only afterwards will the Man of Sin (Anti-Christ) be allowed to come forth, the son of perdition who is damned unto hell fire. 

Again, we BESEECH YOU or URGE YOU FERVENTLY, not to BE AFRAID, because THAT DAY (DOTL) can not come upon you until the CHURCH DEPARTS and is thus GATHERED UNTIL THE LORD !! Then the Anti-Christ will be allowed to come forth when Jesus opens the First Seal. 

Verse 5 tells us that Paul has already told the Thessalonians this BEFORE, but they have listened unto LIARS and thus they have now become WORRIED !! Why does Paul tell them not to worry ? Because they will be GATHERED UNTO THE LORD Before the Day of the Lord can come upon them. 

(D.) This Anti-Christ opposes and exalts himself above God, so that he sits in the Temple as God. DON'T YOU REMEMBER? I told you these things when I was WITH YOU BEFORE !! And NOW YOU KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDETH that He (Anti-Christ) might be REVEALED IN HIS OWN TIME !!

 Paul gives us a Glimpse of this coming Anti-Christ/Beast, then scolds the Thessalonians, HEY GUYS....Why are you coming to me with these fears, didn't I tell you about these things when I was with you before ? (The Church Departing before the Anti-Christ can come forth, and the A.C. must come forth before the DOTL can come) AND........Now you know what Withholdeth or holds the Anti-Christ back so that he can not come forth.  HINT:

Its the Church (which will DEPART) full of the Holy Spirit, that keeps the Anti-Christ from coming forth until the Church DEPARTS. Jesus told Peter the Gates of Hell CAN NOT PREVAIL, against the Church. So in order for this Anti-Christ to come forth, we the Church has to leave this earth to go be with Jesus. We are what have STOPPED THE BEAST in his tracks for 2000 years, we are the MORTAL WOUND to the Seven Headed Beast. 

Notice, all the Beasts SKIP 2000 years right past the CHURCH AGE...........Notice the STATUE SKIPS 2000 years also..............NOTICE the 70th week SKIPS 2000 Years, the Church Age stopped the One World Government movement by Satan in its tracks. When we Depart, the Anti-Christ/Little Horn will be allowed to COM FORTH !! 

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9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Where does any of those verses say such a thing?

If you can't see it I probably can't make you see it brother, eyes have to be opened by Jesus/God on these type things.

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

He cut the time of the tribulation short

Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

The verse clearly states the tribulation was cut short.

But since you all claim this is written to the Jew's why worry anyway,right? Yet the below says

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Another thing,since Mark 13 gives all of the seals from revelation when in Revelation does Christ return?

Yes, he cut it to SEVEN YEARS in his original plan. Nothing has been changed, read Daniel and tell us anything has been changed. It was 1260 days of Gods Wrath then and is still 1260 days, in the Middle of the Week in Daniel 9:27 tells us its a 7 Year Period. It still is. 

Jesus is only tells you will its 7 years or more to the point 42 Months as per the Beasts RULE...........And NO MORE. Jesus told is why God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son adjudicated that 42 Months had to be the MAX TIME that the Beast could be allowed to rule. Thus the Second Coming does what brother? IT CUTS THE BEASTS RULE SHORT !! Without that return, the Beast would go on ruling and do what?  DESTROY EVERY HUMAN ON EARTH, no Humans, no Jews, thus there could be NO JUDGMENT, this is how Satan thinks. 

It has nothing to do with cutting Tribulation SHORTER than the ORIGINAL PLAN. God doesn't have to redo His plans !! Its usually just humans who confuse His plans. Jesus cuts the Tribulation/Troubles SHORT by returning and destroying the Beast and his Minions. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:
13 hours ago, n2thelight said:

 

No it doesn't, Satan has just twisted and confused people as he is want to do. Read my post at the top....."Is the Falling away a false teaching" 

The whole passage is about the Church DEPARTING from the earth to go be with the Lord, and thus we will no face Gods Wrath. Paul is telling the Thessalonians this to assuage their fears, someone has told then they are going to go trough the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath, and Paul is saying:

 

Apostasia does not mean departure of the church.  It means departure from the faith.  Paul goes on to spell it out afterward.  God is going to send them a delusion since they do not believe the truth.  This is the same as Isaiah 66.  It is all in the same context.

2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offeredswine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Edited by Brother Duke
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