The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I believe. Just not the timing for pretrib. The Coming of the Lord and the Gathering of the Elect only occur after the revealing of the man of sin and the rebellion of God's people, a rebellion against the truth of the Lord's word. We see that today and it's going to get worse.

You're going to contradict this statement with your next because you are about to say some believers do suffer wrath consisting of sudden destruction.

These kind of contradictions are rife in pretrib doctrine. You just said 'sudden destruction' then you say there will be 'new believers' right after the 'rapture'. How is that possible when they are suddenly destroyed? 

There is a gathering of the elect. 'Rapture' appears no where in scripture. A gathering is seen, 'rapture' is a made up term that does not appear.

I know that you like this definition of apostasia. Do the leg work on this. Apostasia has never been defined as departure since it was written in the Koine Greek by Paul in the 1st century. Apostasia has always been defined as, 'revolt', 'rebellion', or 'defection'. 

The coming of the Lord will be after the rebellion of the people of God and the revealing of the beast. These are the two events holding back the return of Jesus Christ and the gathering the elect. I'd get ready for battle if I were you. Our fight is coming.

 

Not a teacher and don't claim to be. Teachers fashion young minds through doctrine and agenda and have been subverting truth for millennia. I listen to The Truth. I repeat.

Paul gives us the timing for His resurrection / catching up and it will be a moment before the Day of the Lord - which points only to the 6th seal. He further tells us it will be a moment before God's wrath begins - which again points us only to the 6th seal.  If you don't believe Paul, they chances are very good you will not be expecting Him when He comes - and you will be left behind.

I guess you know - or should know - that apostasia is a compound Greek word, from two Greek words, Apo and Stasia. Apo, according to Strong's, means a part of a whole group removed spatially from the whole group to some other location.  Since this is exactly what happens at Paul's resurrection / catching up, I think Paul knew this meaning.  The sec0nd word, stasia, is where we get stationary or not moving. Together this word apostasia CAN mean a part of a while group removed spatially to another location - so quickly - it will be as if everyone else is stationary.  I did not make this up: it comes right from Strong's. 

Next, when you consider the context, the way Paul placed this word in its context, telling us that after apostasia (which must come first) the man of sin IS revealed - then Paul's meaning MUST BE (cannot be anything else) the one doing the restraining "taken out of the way."  Of course, posttribbers are not willing to dig down and find Paul's real intent.  OF COURSE the Bride of Christ will be "taken out of the way" at Paul's resurrection / catching up.  

Again in this passage Paul hints strongly that what follows Paul's gathering will be the Day of the Lord.  Since this reading of 2 thes. 2 fits perfectly with his first letter, and fits perfectly with John in Revelation, I am convinced it is the correct meaning.  On the other hand, your theory of when does not fit with any of Paul's writings on the gathering of the church. Oh, it does fit Jesus' gathering in Matthew 24, but that is a different gathering that will come after the 70th week. It will be angels gathering all the descendants of Jacob back to Israel - just what God had promised them. And this gathering of Israel will gather from both heaven and earth. Paul's gathering will gather ONLY from the earth. Again, your theory simply does not fit.

I must ask, why do you ignore Paul's "first" in his second letter? In your mind, what must come first? The revealing? God's wrath will have started before the revealing, so you will have the Bride of Christ mixing with God's wrath! Rapture is very much a scriptural term - if you read Latin. 

Next, "rebellion" will not work with Paul's argument. First, it must be a very SIGNIFICANT rebellion. It must to so significant that all that see it will know: "This is what Paul was talking about."  I don't see a rebellion fitting this. Neither do I see a rebellion fitting Paul's context.  Why? Because a rebellion MUST BE (cannot be anything else) the one restraining evil being "taken out of the way." Sorry, but a catching away or a departing of the Bride of Christ fits the context much better.

There is no contradiction! That is all in your mind. God WILL NOT set any appointments with those left behind. THEY set their own appointment by not being ready and expecting His coming.  True, they WILL suffer God's wrath, but it was not God's doing, it was their own. In fact, it it exactly what you are doing: you are setting your own appointment with His wrath by not understanding the end times scriptures. Jesus will come pretrib for those EXPECTING His coming.  Are YOU expecting His coming  - tonight or tomorrow? How can you be, when you expect something else first?  Where will you be if He comes at the Feast of Trumpets THIS YEAR?  Will you be ready and expecting? Have you counted how many times we have the word WATCH in the gospels? It is sad, but you will be watching for the man of sin. 

An earthquake does not destroy or kill everyone!  You know this. Paul's sudden destruction will not kill the entire world, even though it will be a world wide earthquake.  Neither will the earthquake at the 7th vial - and it will be a much stronger earthquake.

The church in general has always believed in the imminent coming of Our Lord. Millions believe it today - because it is truth. His next coming - FOR His bride - will be suddenly, with no warning - like a thief in the night.  It will catch many people unaware.  It just may catch YOU unaware. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, I remember you think the rider on the white horse is the Gospel. Maybe that's true, maybe not, but it still does not deal with the issue.

If the 70th week is all wrath, there should be no believer in Jesus in the 70th week, at any point. If during the last week a person receives the revealed truth of Jesus and salvation and becomes born again of the Spirit, they would be doomed to immediately suffer the wrath of God; something to which Paul has told us we are not appointed.

"We are not appointed to wrath" is a bedrock tenet of Pretrib. If the 70th week is all God's wrath (another foundational concept of Pretrib), which would mean GT is also God's wrath, then how is this, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;-Rev 7" possible? 

It's not possible if Paul told the truth when he said,  "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thessalonians 5:9

This can only mean that GT is not the wrath of God because Paul did speak the truth, we are not appointed to wrath.

I think your thinking is messed up! It is not God's will that ANY should perish. Do you then believe that "all" will be saved, because it is His will that all be saved? In almost any subject found in the bible, there is a God side and a man side - things that God said HE would do, and things that only WE can do. For example, God will not force anyone to become willing to love Him. That is on the man side - OUR responsibility.  It will be the same: God wants the entire world to be ready for His coming FOR His saints. But sadly, many WILL BE left behind. Do you imagine God will have failed in some way? How many warnings has He left?  Remember the parable of the 10 virgins? Is that not a warning that perhaps 50% of the people will be left behind? 

Who are the "WE" in we are not appointed to wrath?  It will be ONLY those expecting His coming and prepared for His coming. That means people who are "In Christ" and in a right standing with Him at the time of His coming. And it further means those who are expecting Him. 

Heb. 9:²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I did not write this, so don't blame me. What does this say exactly? It says He shall appear the second time (he came once already) unto them that look for Him. Could we change the tense slightly and say those that are looking for His coming? I believe that is the intent of this verse.  If watching was not important, why did Jesus say it over and over again? 

"If the 70th week is all wrath, there should be no believer in Jesus in the 70th week, at any point."  

That is your theory, but not God's theory. He will have done all He can do to keep people out of His wrath. But if people are not willing to do what He asks - what else can He do? Sin CANNOT enter heaven - period. If people are not in a right standing with Him, they are going to be left behind.  Does not God prove this when He caused Matthew to write the parable of the ten virgins?  What did Matthew write?

 

Matthew 25: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The door will be shut, meaning, no others will be allowed in. In to what? It is to the marriage. We see that in Revelation 19. The saints are already there in heaven. How did they get there? John SAW them there in chapter 7. And Paul tells us they will get there a moment before the Day of the Lord begins. Therefore God Himself is saying that some will be left behind to face His wrath. 

You are not understanding: when God writes "great tribulation" you imagine He is speaking ONLY of those days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that will come in the second half of the week. Did you miss it when God caused John to write those words to one of the 7 churches that existed in John's time?  In that occasion, the meaning could not possibly be after the midpoint of the 70th week, for they lived 2000 years ago, and the warning was to certain people in that existing church.  So those in chapter 7 did not come out of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. The correct meaning is, at the time of the rapture, people will be being martyred around the world. It is that way in much of the world today, and it will get worse. My point is, God calls the days we are living in now "great tribulation." Again, if you notice, just those two words together were not enough for Jesus: He had to add more description for the time after the midpoint of the week.  Therefore, when you see these two words together in scripture, don't automatically assign them to the days following the midpoint of the week. 

Next, if you pay any attention to John's chronology, in chapter 7 John has not yet even started the week, much less arrived at the midpoint. Therefore, these people could not possibly have come from 3 1/2 years into the future. It is simply not the way John wrote. 

It is all in how you read scripture.  Apparently you don't put much stock in John's chronology. I do.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

iam, the seven heads and seven horns represent empires and kings in a future 70th week, Dan 7:17, Rev 17:9-10.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space

Iam, these are simply layers upon layers of the same storyline. He's telling the same story in different chapters.....

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

If you think that, we will never agree. The truth is, John takes us on a journey straight through time, except for parentheses.  There were different parts to his vision, or perhaps separate visions. I believe six times in Revelation John wrote words similar to "After this" or "after these things." It was his way of transitioning to a different subject in the vision.  The truth is, the TIMING of Rev. 4:1 was during John's life! The timing of Rev. 7:9 is still in our future. 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

When Christ descends from the 3rd Heaven into the atmospheric heaven, into the clouds, it will be up against the backdrop of total darkness. His radiant glory shall so shine forth and that of the heavenly host of mighty angels, that it will be unmistakable. His appearing and revelation will be a spectacle like no other.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
...
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When He arrives at His coming (parousia), He and the mighty angels will be revealed for all to see; the unbelieving will begin to hide; the dead in Christ are resurrected; the saints which remain alive, who were looking to the skies knowing that their redemption was nigh, are changed; both the resurrected and the survivors who have been changed are caught up (raptured) to be with Jesus in the clouds by the angels; Christ then escorts us to the Father's house to stand before the throne; He seals the 144,000 for protection from the plagues which will begin to fall upon the earth-dwellers the very same day; He opens the seventh seal; there is 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven; and the first trumpet is blown initiating the plagues of God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Since all of this happens on the very first day of His coming, His parousia will be unmistakable.

Hallelujah

Of course I disagree, because Paul disagrees, and John disagrees. His NEXT (second) coming will be in the clouds only and it is very likely He will not be seen except by those who are caught up. And it is also a 50/50 chance it will be daylight.  No one knows the hour of the day. 

You are describing His THIRD coming, WITH His saints. Understand, He must come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints.

[Diaste]

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul gives us the timing for His resurrection / catching up and it will be a moment before the Day of the Lord - which points only to the 6th seal. He further tells us it will be a moment before God's wrath begins - which again points us only to the 6th seal.  If you don't believe Paul, they chances are very good you will not be expecting Him when He comes - and you will be left behind.

Yeah...at the 6th seal deep into the last week. You are in for a surprise if you think the 6th seal begins the last week.

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I guess you know - or should know - that apostasia is a compound Greek word, from two Greek words, Apo and Stasia. Apo, according to Strong's, means a part of a whole group removed spatially from the whole group to some other location.  Since this is exactly what happens at Paul's resurrection / catching up, I think Paul knew this meaning.  The sec0nd word, stasia, is where we get stationary or not moving. Together this word apostasia CAN mean a part of a while group removed spatially to another location - so quickly - it will be as if everyone else is stationary.  I did not make this up: it comes right from Strong's. 

Not true. You need to get your info straight. Below refutes your misguided attempt to justify your false and incoherent rambling. Apostasy is derived from aphistemi, which is a defection, a departure from a former standing. Apostasy is even stronger, revolt. 

 Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

 

 

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Next, when you consider the context, the way Paul placed this word in its context, telling us that after apostasia (which must come first) the man of sin IS revealed - then Paul's meaning MUST BE (cannot be anything else) the one doing the restraining "taken out of the way."  Of course, posttribbers are not willing to dig down and find Paul's real intent.  OF COURSE the Bride of Christ will be "taken out of the way" at Paul's resurrection / catching up.  

You only know Paul's intent from what was written. When you divorce the context from the text or insert personal understanding of intent the truth will not surface.

Jesus will not come until after apostasy and the revealing. It is apostasy and the revealing that are the restrainer of the coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering.  You'll see. 

 

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I must ask, why do you ignore Paul's "first" in his second letter? In your mind, what must come first? The revealing? God's wrath will have started before the revealing, so you will have the Bride of Christ mixing with God's wrath! Rapture is very much a scriptural term - if you read Latin. 

The revealing of the man of sin? So the man of sin is going to be tagging people all over the world during God's wrath? God's going to be destroying unbelievers while unbelievers are destroying God's people? Do you hear the words you speak?

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Next, "rebellion" will not work with Paul's argument. First, it must be a very SIGNIFICANT rebellion. It must to so significant that all that see it will know: "This is what Paul was talking about."  I don't see a rebellion fitting this. Neither do I see a rebellion fitting Paul's context.  Why? Because a rebellion MUST BE (cannot be anything else) the one restraining evil being "taken out of the way." Sorry, but a catching away or a departing of the Bride of Christ fits the context much better.

Again comprehension is lost and logic suspended. The rebellion isn't guns and governments, its rebellion against the truth of the Lord, his salvation, his authority, and his sovereignty. God knows the rebellion, that is all that's necessary. 

You think the church restrains evil? Do you know how to think critically? Watch the news? Evil is growing every day. The church is doing a great job. 

 

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

The church in general has always believed in the imminent coming of Our Lord. Millions believe it today - because it is truth. His next coming - FOR His bride - will be suddenly, with no warning - like a thief in the night.  It will catch many people unaware.  It just may catch YOU unaware. 

You are incorrect. You'll see. Best get ready. 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

True, they WILL suffer God's wrath

So, believers will suffer the wrath of God. In direct contradiction to the word of God.

Yep, the rebellion is here. 

 I will have no further interaction with you.

[Heb 13:8]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the TIMING of Rev. 4:1 was during John's life! The timing of Rev. 7:9 is still in our future. 

No, John was revealing a vision of the rapture scene and the 70th week of Daniel.

The dragon is the Antichrist system working through empires and kings on earth.

Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 22:7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

Rev 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

God bless

[Daniel 11:36]

 

Yeah...at the 6th seal deep into the last week. You are in for a surprise if you think the 6th seal begins the last week

 

The 6th seal definitely begins the 70th week here [Revelation 6:12-17]

The 70th week is decreed for Israel and begins in chapter 8 and ends in chapter 19

Easy to see if you try

Edited July 25, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

56 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

 

Yeah...at the 6th seal deep into the last week. You are in for a surprise if you think the 6th seal begins the last week

 

The 6th seal definitely begins the 70th week here [Revelation 6:12-17]

The 70th week is decreed for Israel and begins in chapter 8 and ends in chapter 19

Easy to see if you try

It's easy to imagine anything hence, pretrib. 

I think Lennon said something similar; "imagine there is no heaven, it's easy if you try...."

No thanks.

[Daniel 11:36]

Were do you go to church son?