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The context of 1 Thess 5:1


Heb 13:8

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

In the Greek there is no 'he' as you can see below. Further Paul is relating four events to the believers: the coming of the Lord, the gathering, the rebellion, and the revealing. Paul is telling some of these events occur before others, namely the rebellion and the revealing occur before the Coming and the gathering. In keeping with the context of; "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND THE GATHERING," the following makes much more sense.

Literally,

 

KJV                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Greek             monon           arti               katecho       heos

Literal            Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV                 until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Greek              heos                ginomai                   ek                    mesos       

Literal             until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

It's an emerging from the midst where 'mesos' can also be 'middle'. Ginomai is a term that can be used for appearing on the world stage.

"

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

  1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
  2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
    1. of events
  3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
    1. of men appearing in public
  4. to be made, finished
    1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
  5. to become, be made

Not sure why 'ginomai' was rendered 'he be taken' but that concept does not appear in the definition as 'ginomai' is an appearance of something that wasn't there before, and thrust into the affairs of the world, like the drawing back of a curtain.

In proper English then the last part of 2 Thess 2:8 should read more like, "All you have to do is sit tight until the beast is revealed to the world in the middle." 

Most, if not all, the agenda driven wolves exile the context in favor text fragments that can be molded into any configuration. 

One can easily see, if they look, the proper reading of 2 Thess 2 1:8 tells us the beast and the rebellion comes before the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to him. The only 'restraining' in view here is that of the events of the sinful nature of man and the plan of God to release the beast running their course before the Lord will return to put an end to this folly, right after he grabs us up.

There is no 'restrainer'. That concept of a 'he who restrains' is made up by nonsensical doctrinaires. Paul says, "Now you understand the holding back", which flows from the ideas presented about the 'day' that will not come, "because except the apostasy and the revealing of the one who proclaims himself to be God in the Temple".

This is all about the order of events of the coming of the Lord and the gathering, and what must occur first as the signs given to those concerned, and not about some entity "restraining evil".  Honestly, if some "restraining entity" is supposed to be "holding back evil" they should be fired cause they ain't getting 'er done.

But you'll see. Experience is the best teacher. I know none of you will hear, but you will believe when you see the events, I hope.

Let's compare with the "experts:" those that have translated the entire bible or entire New Testament:

Note: all Greek texts are in agreement in this verse:

Note: most put the phrase in verse 3 as the idea of apostasy or a falling away. For those that put a departing, I included that.

HCSB:  until he is out of the way

Darby: until he be gone

NRS:  until the one who now restrains it is removed.

OJB:  until he is out of the way.

Douay-Rheims: until he be taken out of the way.

Weymouth:  until the man who is now exercising a restraining influence is removed

Unknown:  until one arises from out of the midst.

Green's literal:  until it comes out of the midst.

Julia E Smith: (1876)  till he be out of the midst.

Bishop's Bible: (1568)  tyll he whiche nowe onlye letteth, be taken out of the way.

Geneva Bible:  till he be taken out of the way.  (except there come a departing first)

T G B (1539)  tyll he which nowe onlye letteth, be taken out of the waye.  (excepte ther come a departynge fyrst)

Matthew's Bible  (1537)  vntyll it be taken out of the waye.  (except there come a departyng first)

Wycliffe:  (1382)  til he be do awei.

Young's literal:  (1862) till he may be out of the way

Tyndale:  (1534)  vntill it be taken out of ye waye.  (excepte ther come a departynge fyrst)

Coverdale: (1535)   tyll he which now onely letteth, be take out of the waye.  (excepte the departynge come first)

English Majority (2009)  until one arises from out of [the] midst.

Final thoughts: NONE of these translations seem to fit a "falling away." 

Most of them fit a "departing." 

 

Since this writer keeps putting wrong things first, lets compare his theory with the WORD:

All translations agree that it is the apostasia that must come first. I challenge this writer to find any translation that has anything but the apostasia first.  By the way, for those that understand common sense, only ONE EVENT can come "first" unless two events happen at the exact same time.

For the readers: which would fit the rapture coming first and being "gone from the midst" versus a falling away one at a time being "gone from the midst?" 

"comes before the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to him."  It is only imagination and preconceptions that you put the DAY and the gathering together, as if they are synonomous terms. Did you ever consider what the Old Testament has to say about THE DAY? It will be a DARK day of DESTRUCTION with God's intent to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. 

The "restraining" is the preventing of the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews UNTIL THE PROPER TIME. 

Edited by iamlamad
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34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

But if Paul's real meaning was a falling away from truth, as so many imagine, how in the world would anyone know when "enough" had fallen away to meet Paul's intent?  

The falling away from truth is exactly what he's saying. 

It's not a matter of how many fall away ,as the whole world will be deceived except for those with the seal of God. 

Why would one need to be sealed if they were to be raptured?

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Just now, n2thelight said:

The falling away from truth is exactly what he's saying. 

It's not a matter of how many fall away ,as the whole world will be deceived except for those with the seal of God. 

Why would one need to be sealed if they were to be raptured?

I will answer this only for the readers:

Because of the context, "apostasia" has to have the same meaning as the one restraining or holding back or preventing the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is God until the proper time (the exact midpoint of the week). Translating apostasia as a falling away cannot meet this requirement.

Next, in Paul's argument, he is explaining that they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and how to know when the Day of the Lord has come. First, according to Paul, there must come a very significant departing. If it was the rapture, would that be sufficient that all who read Paul would recognize it as what Paul was meaning? I think so. Perhaps half of the world's population will suddenly disappear! That would be VERY significant.

On the other hand, Paul could not have meant a one by one falling away (from what Paul did not tell us) because in this scenario NO ONE would know how many would have to fall way to be "significant."

The sealing? For those that read and believe what they read, we all know the sealing is for those Hebrews that will be left behind at the rapture and are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. No Gentile believers will be sealed.  The big question is, WHY were they left behind? John did not tell us! But we can guess that at the time of the rapture they were NOT born again! Could it be that the rapture event convinces them that Jesus really WAS their Messiah and after the rapture they BECOME believers?

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1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

I agree the beast does come first,don't see where I said otherwise. First beast is a system, ie,one world government, that will fall apart (deadly wound) second beast is satan himself who will heal that wound as he pretends to be Christ. 

You didn't. I just felt the article you posted was murky in some respects.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The "restraining" is the preventing of the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews UNTIL THE PROPER TIME. 

Hi iamlamad.....

And this we can agree on....."The "restraining" is the preventing of the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews UNTIL THE PROPER TIME. 

This is the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus talked about......Math 24, Luke 21, Mark 13.

The Abomination of Desolation then begins the Great Tribulation.

And if we follow along in these Gospels, we see that the Church is being used as a Testament during the Great Tribulation.

And AFTER the Great Tribulation,  AFTER the signs in the sun, moon and the stars,.........THEN they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

AND THEN......Luke 21:28 tells us..........And when these things begin to come to pass, then LOOK UP, and LIFT YOUR HEADS;

                                                                 FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH

Paul tells us in Ephesians that there is a DAY of Redemption

" And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of Redemption".....Eph 4:30

That is the DAY that Luke is referring to.

Paul was also talking to us about the DAY that he longed for.

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the Redemption of our Body".....Romans 8:23

And what is the redemption of our body?

Paul tells us.......

         "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body"............... 1 Cor 15:42-44:

So iamlamad.......  Where all these things mentioned above  happen After the Great Tribulation, can you show me a scripture that tells us that these things happen BEFORE the Great Tribulation. 

Not speculation, not presumption.....an actual scripture, like the ones used above.

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Just now, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad.....

And this we can agree on....."The "restraining" is the preventing of the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews UNTIL THE PROPER TIME. 

This is the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus talked about......Math 24, Luke 21, Mark 13.

The Abomination of Desolation then begins the Great Tribulation.

And if we follow along in these Gospels, we see that the Church is being used as a Testament during the Great Tribulation.

And AFTER the Great Tribulation,  AFTER the signs in the sun, moon and the stars,.........THEN they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

AND THEN......Luke 21:28 tells us..........And when these things begin to come to pass, then LOOK UP, and LIFT YOUR HEADS;

                                                                 FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH

Paul tells us in Ephesians that there is a DAY of Redemption

" And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of Redemption".....Eph 4:30

That is the DAY that Luke is referring to.

Paul was also talking to us about the DAY that he longed for.

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the Redemption of our Body".....Romans 8:23

And what is the redemption of our body?

Paul tells us.......

         "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body"............... 1 Cor 15:42-44:

So iamlamad.......  Where all these things mentioned above  happen After the Great Tribulation, can you show me a scripture that tells us that these things happen BEFORE the Great Tribulation. 

Not speculation, not presumption.....an actual scripture, like the ones used above.

Hi Joe! Have not seen you for a while. 

What we must do for every scripture is see who WHOM is being addressed. You are assuming that these scriptures are referring to the church. Since in the gospels Jesus was talking to Jewish men, why would you assume that? I submit that the Olivet discourse is Jesus telling them about the end of the JEWISH age, which is none other than the 70th week of Daniel. There will be PEOPLE there, Jews, Hebrews, Gentiles and even believers in Christ that were left behind. 

Will some Jews get "redemption?" Of course they will!

Will some Gentiles  get "redemption" during or after the 70th week? Of course they will!

The church, however will get redemption FIRST, because we are caught up before the 70th week begins. Where do I find this? Putting all the end times scriptures together I can come to no other conclusion. OF COURSE Paul was speaking to the church in Ephesians. 

We KNOW most of the Jews and Hebrews are still rejecting Christ and will go through their 70th week - because God created it JUST FOR THEM. It is THEIR week. His purpose is to crush Israel so thoroughly that they have ONLY GOD to call out to - and then He will come.

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Hi Joe! Have not seen you for a while. 

What we must do for every scripture is see who WHOM is being addressed. You are assuming that these scriptures are referring to the church. Since in the gospels Jesus was talking to Jewish men, why would you assume that? I submit that the Olivet discourse is Jesus telling them about the end of the JEWISH age, which is none other than the 70th week of Daniel. There will be PEOPLE there, Jews, Hebrews, Gentiles and even believers in Christ that were left behind. 

Will some Jews get "redemption?" Of course they will!

Will some Gentiles  get "redemption" during or after the 70th week? Of course they will!

The church, however will get redemption FIRST, because we are caught up before the 70th week begins. Where do I find this? Putting all the end times scriptures together I can come to no other conclusion. OF COURSE Paul was speaking to the church in Ephesians. 

We KNOW most of the Jews and Hebrews are still rejecting Christ and will go through their 70th week - because God created it JUST FOR THEM. It is THEIR week. His purpose is to crush Israel so thoroughly that they have ONLY GOD to call out to - and then He will come.

Hi iamlamad...

"The church, however will get redemption FIRST, because we are caught up before the 70th week begins. Where do I find this? Putting all the end times scriptures together I can come to no other conclusion

So....there are then NO SCRIPTURES that prove your point.

Paul tells us in Ephesians that there is coming..."A Day of Redemption"

You say that the "Day of Redemption" happens before the 70th week.

The "Day of Redemption" is the Resurrection of those in Christ (DEAD) and the Rapture of the Believers in Christ (ALIVE)

If you put together the end time scriptures, ALL of them, then you could NOT come to any other conclusion than the "Day of Redemption" being AFTER the Great Tribulation.......right BEFORE the Day of the Lord. 

Scripture says nothing about this Day being before the GT, or before the 70th week......Unless of course there are  "TWO Days of Redemption".

To say that the Gospels are not for the church in any way is absurd. 

In those very Gospels, Jesus taught in the synagogues (Jews) , AND , He taught to those outside the synagogues (Gentiles)

" and healed all manner of disease and sickness among the people.......great multitudes followed Him, and from beyond the Jordan,......the Beatitudes taught by Jesus (certainly apply to ALL men)......

"come unto me, ALL YE that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest....take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls......For my yoke is easy and my burden is light...." ( the very scripture that saved me )

If you say that Math 24 is only for the Jews for example, then will only the Jews experience the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, famines, earthquakes....etc, etc.......will only the Jews SEE the AoD, will only the Jews experience the Great Tribulation.....will only the Jews SEE the Son of Man coming in the clouds?????????

We can't pick a few scriptures that seem to back our position. We have to use them all.

We can't think that the scriptures mean something....only scripture interprets scripture.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad...

"The church, however will get redemption FIRST, because we are caught up before the 70th week begins. Where do I find this? Putting all the end times scriptures together I can come to no other conclusion

So....there are then NO SCRIPTURES that prove your point.

Paul tells us in Ephesians that there is coming..."A Day of Redemption"

You say that the "Day of Redemption" happens before the 70th week.

The "Day of Redemption" is the Resurrection of those in Christ (DEAD) and the Rapture of the Believers in Christ (ALIVE)

If you put together the end time scriptures, ALL of them, then you could NOT come to any other conclusion than the "Day of Redemption" being AFTER the Great Tribulation.......right BEFORE the Day of the Lord. 

Scripture says nothing about this Day being before the GT, or before the 70th week......Unless of course there are  "TWO Days of Redemption".

To say that the Gospels are not for the church in any way is absurd. 

In those very Gospels, Jesus taught in the synagogues (Jews) , AND , He taught to those outside the synagogues (Gentiles)

" and healed all manner of disease and sickness among the people.......great multitudes followed Him, and from beyond the Jordan,......the Beatitudes taught by Jesus (certainly apply to ALL men)......

"come unto me, ALL YE that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest....take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls......For my yoke is easy and my burden is light...." ( the very scripture that saved me )

If you say that Math 24 is only for the Jews for example, then will only the Jews experience the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, famines, earthquakes....etc, etc.......will only the Jews SEE the AoD, will only the Jews experience the Great Tribulation.....will only the Jews SEE the Son of Man coming in the clouds?????????

We can't pick a few scriptures that seem to back our position. We have to use them all.

We can't think that the scriptures mean something....only scripture interprets scripture.

"So....there are then NO SCRIPTURES that prove your point."  Joe, why would I say that if there are no scriptures? OF COURSE there are scriptures - it is just that you have not found them yet.

First let me say that most pretribbers could not show correctly where the rapture is in revelation or even where the "trib" is in revelation, but they still believe it  because it is what they have been taught.  One way to know is to find a scripture that is time sensitive and in the correct order and then if the rapture and the "trib" can be found in such a passage, we would all know whether pretrib is right.  But IS there a passage on the end time events in the right order and including both the rapture and the "trib?" Some think the Olivet discourse answers this nicely. I disagree. It does not show us the start of the "trib" but only the midpoint. I further disagree because the gathering in that discourse is not Paul's rapture.

So where are the scriptures that show a pretrib rapture. I think Revelation fits that requirement.  I know where the rapture will be in Revelation and I know where the "trib" begins in Revelation, and the rapture comes first. However, these points are not easy to see and a casual reader will miss both.  When I study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, I see Paul's scriptures fitting perfectly before the 6th seal. I see the 5th seal as the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr before judgment. that to me is a big hint for the timing of the rapture. Then shortly after John saw the 6th seal events take place in his vision, he saw a large crowd too large to number in heaven. Then after that he was the start of the 70th week. 

I have proved these things to myself, but for others? They might not know that Revelation is in perfect order as it is. They might not believe that the earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction." They might not believe that when John tells us the day of His wrath has come, that it comes right there at the 6th seal. They might not believe that God marked the 70th week with 7's.  

I trust John when He writes that the time for the marriage has come - RIGHT THEN, not later. I believe John when he tells us that the supper will follow the marriage, IN HEAVEN before Jesus ascends. Other don't believe these things.

I trust Paul when he tells us that His coming triggers the start of the DAY. Others don't seem to see that. I believe Paul when he tells us that his rapture delivers us from the wrath just before it hits. I believe Paul that God's wrath will come instantly after the rapture.  Again, I see that is just before His wrath at the 6th seal.  

I believe Luke when he tells us there is an escape from these things to come. I think this escape would include the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week.  

Paul tells us, since we are justified by His blood, we are saved from His wrath. Just by this verse I know the rapture must come before the 6th seal.  

I believe John when he tells us that God will deliver us from the hour of temptation that is coming. 

Therefore, when I see all these end times scriptures, only pretrib fits. OF COURSE pretrib will also be before His wrath, for that is scripture. But pretrib also means before the 70th week of Daniel begins. 

Sorry, but for the above reasons, the day of redemption for the church will be at Paul's pretrib rapture. 

"Scripture says nothing about this Day being before the GT, or before the 70th week......Unless of course there are  "TWO Days of Redemption"."  OF COURSE there is more that one day of "redemption." the church comes on one day. The 144,000 have their day. Those that will get beheaded will have their day. The Old Testament saints will have their day. These are NOT all on the same 24 hour day.

To say that the Gospels are not for the church in any way is absurd.   I did not say they are not FOR the church. I said they are not pointed towards the church. The church we are a part of did not exist then! Of course the church LOVES the gospels. They are amazing and wonderful. And of course we follow the commands of Jesus because they are for all. Jesus HEALED at least one Gentile.  But the end times scriptures? No, they are for the Jews. You should know that because Daniel said it was for HIS people: the Jews. Jesus proved it was for them because He mentioned the abomination that will divide the week. If you can find ANY scripture that shows this 7 year period is FOR the church, show us.  

""come unto me, ALL YE that are heavy laden"  Of course this scripture is for ALL just as Jesus said: Jew or Gentile.  But How about this one?  "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." How about this one from the Olivet discourse?

Luke 21:  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Can you see the church in this verse? No, this was Jesus speaking of the end of the JEWISH age, that is the 70th week. 

If you say that Math 24 is only for the Jews for example, then will only the Jews experience the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, famines, earthquakes....etc, etc.......  you make a very good point here, but in fact, Jesus was talking about the world here, NOT THE 70TH WEEK. He had not yet arrived at the end times. These are world events BEFORE the 70th week, proved by His words, "the end is not yet." This is your best point so far, but it does not make your case. 

will only the Jews SEE the AoD  Another good question. My guess is, it will be broadcast worldwide. But like most cameras today that are online, most Gentiles will not be paying any attention to what is happening in a Jewish temple.  Only those in Judea will flee to the mountains.

Revelation covers the 70th week, but also much more. I believe the world will be fooled by the Beast just as John tells us. I think the days of GT will be almost world wide - as in the Mark and the image. Others certainly disagree on this point. All these things will CERTAINLY be in the Middle East nations. 

Again we disagree on many points. 

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"So....there are then NO SCRIPTURES that prove your point."  Joe, why would I say that if there are no scriptures? OF COURSE there are scriptures - it is just that you have not found them yet.

First let me say that most pretribbers could not show correctly where the rapture is in revelation or even where the "trib" is in revelation, but they still believe it  because it is what they have been taught.  One way to know is to find a scripture that is time sensitive and in the correct order and then if the rapture and the "trib" can be found in such a passage, we would all know whether pretrib is right.  But IS there a passage on the end time events in the right order and including both the rapture and the "trib?" Some think the Olivet discourse answers this nicely. I disagree. It does not show us the start of the "trib" but only the midpoint. I further disagree because the gathering in that discourse is not Paul's rapture.

So where are the scriptures that show a pretrib rapture. I think Revelation fits that requirement.  I know where the rapture will be in Revelation and I know where the "trib" begins in Revelation, and the rapture comes first. However, these points are not easy to see and a casual reader will miss both.  When I study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, I see Paul's scriptures fitting perfectly before the 6th seal. I see the 5th seal as the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr before judgment. that to me is a big hint for the timing of the rapture. Then shortly after John saw the 6th seal events take place in his vision, he saw a large crowd too large to number in heaven. Then after that he was the start of the 70th week. 

I have proved these things to myself, but for others? They might not know that Revelation is in perfect order as it is. They might not believe that the earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction." They might not believe that when John tells us the day of His wrath has come, that it comes right there at the 6th seal. They might not believe that God marked the 70th week with 7's.  

I trust John when He writes that the time for the marriage has come - RIGHT THEN, not later. I believe John when he tells us that the supper will follow the marriage, IN HEAVEN before Jesus ascends. Other don't believe these things.

I trust Paul when he tells us that His coming triggers the start of the DAY. Others don't seem to see that. I believe Paul when he tells us that his rapture delivers us from the wrath just before it hits. I believe Paul that God's wrath will come instantly after the rapture.  Again, I see that is just before His wrath at the 6th seal.  

I believe Luke when he tells us there is an escape from these things to come. I think this escape would include the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week.  

Paul tells us, since we are justified by His blood, we are saved from His wrath. Just by this verse I know the rapture must come before the 6th seal.  

I believe John when he tells us that God will deliver us from the hour of temptation that is coming. 

Therefore, when I see all these end times scriptures, only pretrib fits. OF COURSE pretrib will also be before His wrath, for that is scripture. But pretrib also means before the 70th week of Daniel begins. 

Sorry, but for the above reasons, the day of redemption for the church will be at Paul's pretrib rapture. 

"Scripture says nothing about this Day being before the GT, or before the 70th week......Unless of course there are  "TWO Days of Redemption"."  OF COURSE there is more that one day of "redemption." the church comes on one day. The 144,000 have their day. Those that will get beheaded will have their day. The Old Testament saints will have their day. These are NOT all on the same 24 hour day.

To say that the Gospels are not for the church in any way is absurd.   I did not say they are not FOR the church. I said they are not pointed towards the church. The church we are a part of did not exist then! Of course the church LOVES the gospels. They are amazing and wonderful. And of course we follow the commands of Jesus because they are for all. Jesus HEALED at least one Gentile.  But the end times scriptures? No, they are for the Jews. You should know that because Daniel said it was for HIS people: the Jews. Jesus proved it was for them because He mentioned the abomination that will divide the week. If you can find ANY scripture that shows this 7 year period is FOR the church, show us.  

""come unto me, ALL YE that are heavy laden"  Of course this scripture is for ALL just as Jesus said: Jew or Gentile.  But How about this one?  "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." How about this one from the Olivet discourse?

Luke 21:  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Can you see the church in this verse? No, this was Jesus speaking of the end of the JEWISH age, that is the 70th week. 

If you say that Math 24 is only for the Jews for example, then will only the Jews experience the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, famines, earthquakes....etc, etc.......  you make a very good point here, but in fact, Jesus was talking about the world here, NOT THE 70TH WEEK. He had not yet arrived at the end times. These are world events BEFORE the 70th week, proved by His words, "the end is not yet." This is your best point so far, but it does not make your case. 

will only the Jews SEE the AoD  Another good question. My guess is, it will be broadcast worldwide. But like most cameras today that are online, most Gentiles will not be paying any attention to what is happening in a Jewish temple.  Only those in Judea will flee to the mountains.

Revelation covers the 70th week, but also much more. I believe the world will be fooled by the Beast just as John tells us. I think the days of GT will be almost world wide - as in the Mark and the image. Others certainly disagree on this point. All these things will CERTAINLY be in the Middle East nations. 

Again we disagree on many points. 

Hi iamlamad....

I can say in all honesty that we AGREE on a lot more points than you think.

When I study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, I see Paul's scriptures fitting perfectly before the 6th seal..........agree

I see the 5th seal as the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr before judgment...agree

that to me is a big hint for the timing of the rapture......agree

Then shortly after John saw the 6th seal events take place in his vision, he saw a large crowd too large to number in heaven......agree

John tells us the day of His wrath has come, that it comes right there at the 6th seal......agree

I trust Paul when he tells us that His coming triggers the start of the DAY......agree, it triggers our Day of Redemption and The Day of the Lord

I believe Paul when he tells us that his rapture delivers us from the wrath just before it hits.....agree

I believe Paul that God's wrath will come instantly after the rapture.  Again, I see that is just before His wrath at the 6th seal.......agree

I believe Luke when he tells us there is an escape from these things to come......agree

Paul tells us, since we are justified by His blood, we are saved from His wrath......agree

I believe John when he tells us that God will deliver us from the hour of temptation that is coming......agree

So in all these, you and I agree. Fantastic!

Now, let's dig a little deeper.

When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse in Math 24, the apostles asked him "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Jesus answers them. Notice His answer. He gave them the first six seals of Revelation.

He didn't tell them anything about the trumpet and bowls.....for these are God's wrath. They wouldn't be here.

Seal 1.....Math 24:4-5.....deception, false Christs........Rev 6:2......Rider on white horse.....deception

Seal 2.....Math 24:6.......wars and rumors of wars........Rev 6:4....Rider on red horse.....take peace from the earth, kill one another

Seal 3.....Math 24:7......famines and pestilences...........Rev 6:5....Rider on black horse....a days wages to buy a meal

Seal 4.....Math 24:9-10.....deliver you to be afflicted, killed, betray one another.....Rev 6:8.....Rider on Green(pale) horse.....kill with sword

Seal 5.....Math 24:21-22....great tribulation, many killed, days of trib cut short.....Rev 6:9.....martyrs under the altar

Seal 6......Math 24:29.....celestial disturbance, great earthquake.....Rev 6:12....celestial disturbance, great earthquake, day of wrath comes

What happens after the 6th seal is opened. A great earthquake. An immense one. (Jesus, in calling to the dead in Christ to arise, triggers a great earthquake.)

John then sees the 144,000 being sealed, and after that.....a great multitude shows up in heaven. 

THEN.....the 7th seal is opened........... Silence in heaven.  ( could the silence be a pause before God unleashes His Wrath on the earth?)

Then 7 angels are given 7 trumpets. Then God's wrath begins.

You said...."OF COURSE there is more that one day of "redemption." the church comes on one day. The 144,000 have their day. Those that will get beheaded will have their day. The Old Testament saints will have their day. These are NOT all on the same 24 hour day.

My answer.....The Day of Redemption is for the Resurrected dead in Christ, and for the Raptured in Christ, all the same day......for the church, the martyr's, the old testament saints, the 144,000 too. The Day of the Lord, His Wrath, also is on the same day.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad....

I can say in all honesty that we AGREE on a lot more points than you think.

When I study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, I see Paul's scriptures fitting perfectly before the 6th seal..........agree

I see the 5th seal as the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the final church age martyr before judgment...agree

that to me is a big hint for the timing of the rapture......agree

Then shortly after John saw the 6th seal events take place in his vision, he saw a large crowd too large to number in heaven......agree

John tells us the day of His wrath has come, that it comes right there at the 6th seal......agree

I trust Paul when he tells us that His coming triggers the start of the DAY......agree, it triggers our Day of Redemption and The Day of the Lord

I believe Paul when he tells us that his rapture delivers us from the wrath just before it hits.....agree

I believe Paul that God's wrath will come instantly after the rapture.  Again, I see that is just before His wrath at the 6th seal.......agree

I believe Luke when he tells us there is an escape from these things to come......agree

Paul tells us, since we are justified by His blood, we are saved from His wrath......agree

I believe John when he tells us that God will deliver us from the hour of temptation that is coming......agree

So in all these, you and I agree. Fantastic!

Now, let's dig a little deeper.

When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse in Math 24, the apostles asked him "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Jesus answers them. Notice His answer. He gave them the first six seals of Revelation.

He didn't tell them anything about the trumpet and bowls.....for these are God's wrath. They wouldn't be here.

Seal 1.....Math 24:4-5.....deception, false Christs........Rev 6:2......Rider on white horse.....deception

Seal 2.....Math 24:6.......wars and rumors of wars........Rev 6:4....Rider on red horse.....take peace from the earth, kill one another

Seal 3.....Math 24:7......famines and pestilences...........Rev 6:5....Rider on black horse....a days wages to buy a meal

Seal 4.....Math 24:9-10.....deliver you to be afflicted, killed, betray one another.....Rev 6:8.....Rider on Green(pale) horse.....kill with sword

Seal 5.....Math 24:21-22....great tribulation, many killed, days of trib cut short.....Rev 6:9.....martyrs under the altar

Seal 6......Math 24:29.....celestial disturbance, great earthquake.....Rev 6:12....celestial disturbance, great earthquake, day of wrath comes

What happens after the 6th seal is opened. A great earthquake. An immense one. (Jesus, in calling to the dead in Christ to arise, triggers a great earthquake.)

John then sees the 144,000 being sealed, and after that.....a great multitude shows up in heaven. 

THEN.....the 7th seal is opened........... Silence in heaven.  ( could the silence be a pause before God unleashes His Wrath on the earth?)

Then 7 angels are given 7 trumpets. Then God's wrath begins.

You said...."OF COURSE there is more that one day of "redemption." the church comes on one day. The 144,000 have their day. Those that will get beheaded will have their day. The Old Testament saints will have their day. These are NOT all on the same 24 hour day.

My answer.....The Day of Redemption is for the Resurrected dead in Christ, and for the Raptured in Christ, all the same day......for the church, the martyr's, the old testament saints, the 144,000 too. The Day of the Lord, His Wrath, also is on the same day.

 

 

Where we will disagree. In Matthew 24, Jesus begins where they were then. Verses 4 through 12 are church age events. Jesus does not get to the "end" until verse 13. Then, Jesus jumps over the first half of the week, and in verse 15, is right at the midpoint of the week. After all, Jesus is giving only a bare outline. 

These verses then, 24:4-12 cover seals in through 5 in timing: the church age. 

Just before the DAY starts, the signs in the sun and moon are seen, with the moon turning blood read. Seal 6 begins the Day of the Lord and God's wrath. Some say it starts with the first trumpet. I would not argue that. That way the signs in the sun and moon will show for a little time.

The first half then of the week goes from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet, including all 6 trumpet judgments in the first half of the week. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. The daily sacrifices will cease at that point. 

At this time Adam's 6000 year lease ENDS, and suddenly the devil has no more legal hold to earth - so the kingdoms of the earth are taken from him and given to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner.  At this time also, Michael drives the devil down from the heavenlies to earth where he is very angry. 

Also at this time those in Judea begin to flee. And Satan goes after them. But God protects them, so Satan turns to those that believe in Jesus - that is the REMNANT left that believe in Jesus - for the main load went out at the pretrib rapture! 

Then John sees the Antichrist Beast rise up from the water. Why then? Because when the man of sin declared he was God, or shortly thereafter, Satan possesses the man of sin and he becomes the BEAST of Revelation 13. Some unknown time after, the false prophet shows up. Then the image is erected, and the mark created, and soon after, the two begin to enforce worshiping the image or losing their heads - and taking the mark or losing their heads. So the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of begins. In Revelation this is now somewhere in chapter 14 or just after - between 14 and 15. In chapter 15 we see those beheaded begin to arrive in heaven. 

When this killing machine reaches a peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, which will SHORTEN those days of GT. The 42 months promised the Beast will continue, but the Beast and his armies will be helpless. Finally the 7th vials ends the week. But at that moment, the Old Testament saints rise - on "the last day." Probably those beheaded will rise at the same time. The two witnesses will rise at that time - for they too are Old Testament saints. 

So the 70th week ends. But Jesus is still in heaven for the marriage. the marriage has had to wait for the Old Testament saints to arrive. My guess is, it will take 30 days. Perhaps during the marriage, the signs in the sun and moon will be seen again, but this time they will not be seen at all, for total darkness will be upon the earth. then, after the supper, Jesus, the angels and the saints will all return to earth on white horses. He will light up the dark sky as lightning!

Sorry, but prewrath theory does not fit what John has written so clearly.

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