The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[douggg]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Dougg, you should know, there will only be microseconds or less between the dead in Christ rising and those who are alive being changed and flying up to be together with the dead in Christ. It will all happen so fast it will seem as one event.

But that is not what I am getting at.    Look at what the text says in the other two places - 1Thessalonians4:15-18, and 2Thessalonians5:9 - the dead in Christ are addressed.       

In 2Thessalonians3 text, it is different, the dead being resurrected is not mentioned.    I do not disagree with the interval you are pointing out regarding the resurrection and the rapture.

The dead in Christ rising will start a worldwide earthquake, Paul's "sudden destruction" but those who are alive and in Christ will be snatched up just as the ground begins to shake. 

No, I am not seeing that at all.     The sudden destruction is that the revealed man of sin will start taking it out on everyone that doesn't believe his claim.    And that the world will be plunged into the Day of the Lord, when God's anger is raised against the person, and them who initially believe his claim of having achieved God-hood.    It all goes back to the same old garden of Eden lie.

 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, douggg said:

But that is not what I am getting at.    Look at what the text says in the other two places - 1Thessalonians4:15-18, and 2Thessalonians5:9 - the dead in Christ are addressed.       

In 2Thessalonians3 text, it is different, the dead being resurrected is not mentioned.    I do not disagree with the interval you are pointing out regarding the resurrection and the rapture.

No, I am not seeing that at all.     The sudden destruction is that the revealed man of sin will start taking it out on everyone that doesn't believe his claim.    And that the world will be plunged into the Day of the Lord, when God's anger is raised against the person, and them who initially believe his claim of having achieved God-hood.    It all goes back to the same old garden of Eden lie.

 

If you notice, in Matthew 27 where Jesus rose, He resurrected the elders of the Old Testament: some were actually seen. But my point is, that caused and earthquake. In fact, it sets a precedent that when a resurretion takes place, and earthquake will take place. It is the same when the two witnesses are raised - but it is not them persay: they are raised when ALL the Old Testament saints will be raised: on the "last day" and at the 7th vial. 

i am convinced then, when the dead in Christ are raised, that will cause a worldwide earthquake. And that will be Paul's SUDDEN destruction. It is sudden; coming with no warning and happening around the world in the same instant of time.  Paul goes on to show us that this sudden destruction earthquake will be the START of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. 

What you are missing is that this will occur just before the 6th seal in Revelation while the man of sin will not be revealed until chapter 11, 3.5 years later.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

If you notice, in Matthew 27 where Jesus rose, He resurrected the elders of the Old Testament: some were actually seen. But my point is, that caused and earthquake. In fact, it sets a precedent that when a resurretion takes place, and earthquake will take place. It is the same when the two witnesses are raised - but it is not them persay: they are raised when ALL the Old Testament saints will be raised: on the "last day" and at the 7th vial. 

i am convinced then, when the dead in Christ are raised, that will cause a worldwide earthquake. And that will be Paul's SUDDEN destruction. It is sudden; coming with no warning and happening around the world in the same instant of time.  Paul goes on to show us that this sudden destruction earthquake will be the START of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. 

What you are missing is that this will occur just before the 6th seal in Revelation while the man of sin will not be revealed until chapter 11, 3.5 years later.

In 1Thessalonians5, they will not escape -- the earthquake not mentioned in the text.. or the Day of the Lord which is in the text?

For them who do escape - looking at Luke 21:34-36,  "escape all these things" do you think Jesus is talking about escaping a specific earthquake - or all the things that take place during the Day of the Lord beginning years?

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Salty]

9 hours ago, douggg said:

There are actually 4 events that must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

1.  The world saying peace and safety, in 1Thessalonians5.  (because the world will think it has entered the messianic age)

2. There be a great falling away, in 2Thessalonians2:3      (because it will appear that the Antichrist is the real messiah)

3.  There be the rapture/resurrection, in 1Thessalonians5:9-11     (Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.)

4.  There be the transgression of desolation act, in 2Thessalonians 2:4    (Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:) 

Yes, except for no.3.

The "caught up"/resurrection event of 1 Thess.4 will occur on the "day of the Lord", not before. That means the last day of this world. Remember Rev.16:15 where Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and that Paul and Peter both declared the "day of the Lord" happening "as a thief in the night". That idea Paul said about the wicked and deceived saying, "Peace and safety" and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them, is about the "day of the Lord" happening upon them, "as a thief in the night". Those are who will be surprised. We will not be because we will be looking for that day of Christ's coming to gather us.

 

[Salty]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's set the record straight once again - since you have muddied the waters. The Textus Receptus and the Byzantine Majority have it as the day of Christ, Christos.  Other Greek Texts have it as Lord, or Kuriou. I look at it this way: Christ IS Lord, so Day of Christ or Day of the Lord are two ways of saying the same thing.  Paul used Day of the Lord in his first letter, so I like Day of the Lord better.

What were they worried about? What had gotten them so upset?  First, they were going through a very difficult time of tribulation. It was TOUGH to be a believer in Jesus at that time.  Then they either heard a prophecy or obtained a forged letter supposedly from Paul telling them that the Day of the Lord had come and what they were experiencing was in fact not just tribulation, but they were IN the Day of the Lord. 

Revelation was not written yet. Perhaps they did not know that from the start of the DAY it would be only 7 years before Christ would return in POWER to destroy the enemies of God. Paul tells us they were upset - greatly disturbed. Why? It is simple! In Paul's first letter, he showed them that the rapture could come FIRST, and as a trigger for the DAY.  In short, they thought now that Paul had been in error, or else they had MISSED the rapture!  I think almost anyone there would be upset! 

Paul could have just said, no, the rapture has not come yet, and you are not in the DAY yet. Instead, Paul gave them a sequence of events that anyone could know for SURE the DAY had come. How? When the man of sin would be revealed, all would KNOW the DAY had come and they were in it. That's how to know for sure the DAY has come: see the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews. Anyone that sees that would know for certain the DAY has arrived and they were in it.

However, Paul tells them there is a restraining force preventing that from happening! In fact, Paul told them WHAT (who) that restraining force would be, and then wrote, "and now you know...!"  I find it amazing after Paul told us that many STILL don't know, because they simply cannot understand Paul. Perhaps this was one passage Peter was talking about when he wrote, "in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest..."

....

You have no shame, for the Greek NT used for the KJV has the Greek word 'kurios' for "Christ" in 2 Thess.2:2. It's Strong's no.2962.

NT:2962
kurios (koo'-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):
KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The phrase is actually "day of the Lord" in the Greek NT the KJV translators used, as I said. But you're obviously too lazy to even look it up. Just because the more modern translations like the NIV from other Greek texts have it as "day of the Lord" doesn't mean the Textus Receptus doesn't. It's lord in the Textus Receptus too.

The rest of you post is untrustworthy, since you tried to hide this fact about the "day of Christ" actually being "the day of the Lord" in the NT texts the KJV used. I know why you did that, because the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men you hold to wrongly teaches that the "day of the Lord" happens PRIOR to the appearing of the "man of sin". Paul in 2 Thess.2 showed emphatically that is not true.

 

 

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Salty said:

We will not be because we will be looking for that day of Christ's coming to gather us.

You are making a mistake in thinking the day of Christ's coming for the resurrection/rapture is the Day of the Lord.      

Look at what Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36, to escape that day.     It is not to escape His coming for the resurrection/rapture, but to escape the Day of the Lord beginning years.

 

 

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

The confusion is over what exactly is the Day of the Lord.    It includes the beginning years -- basically ~ the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9.   

Then the millennium reign of Christ.  Then the concluding years of this present earth, with Satan's final rebellion.    Then the destruction of this present earth -- at which time the resurrection of all the dead, not previously resurrected, the last trump, for the Great White Throne judgment.    Then the new heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem for eternity.     The Day of the Lord encompasses all those things.

It is the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, which 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2 are referring.

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"like a thief in the night" is a saying used in the bible by Jessus - to indicate something happening totally unexpected by most people.   It is used for different events, and just because it is used in one place, it should not be equated that event be timed with another event which the saying is also used.

Every man under his own fig tree - is a similar saying, used to describe a state of contentment.    It was used for Solomon's reign.   But also to describe the millennium period.

Similarly, some people make the mistake of equating the "last" trumpet, with the 7th trumpet because the 7th trumpet is the last of the 7 trumpets.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by douggg

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, Salty said:

You have no shame, for the Greek NT used for the KJV has the Greek word 'kurios' for "Christ" in 2 Thess.2:2. It's Strong's no.2962.

NT:2962
kurios (koo'-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):
KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The phrase is actually "day of the Lord" in the Greek NT the KJV translators used, as I said. But you're obviously too lazy to even look it up. Just because the more modern translations like the NIV from other Greek texts have it as "day of the Lord" doesn't mean the Textus Receptus doesn't. It's lord in the Textus Receptus too.

The rest of you post is untrustworthy, since you tried to hide this fact about the "day of Christ" actually being "the day of the Lord" in the NT texts the KJV used. I know why you did that, because the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men you hold to wrongly teaches that the "day of the Lord" happens PRIOR to the appearing of the "man of sin". Paul in 2 Thess.2 showed emphatically that is not true.

Shame has nothing to do with it. Paul used Day of the Lord in His first letter. And other Greek texts use Day of the Lord. Were you there when it was written? I doubt it - so you really don't know what Paul wrote.  Only God really knows.  We both know that Christ is Lord anyway, so it is not a big deal. Why then are you trying to make it a big deal?

The phrase is actually "day of the Lord"  ha ha! Now you are on my side of this argument! You just tried to prove it was the Greek Christos! You are too funny!

Since you have totally flip-flopped in one post, why continue? 

"the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men you hold to wrongly teaches that the "day of the Lord" happens PRIOR to the appearing of the "man of sin""

Look, Salty, I am supposing you can read: so you read and answer: what did Paul write that comes FIRST?

Geneva Bible 1560

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

 

Now, Salty, please show the readers what it is that Paul says comes FIRST...

We will be waiting....

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

Yes, except for no.3.

The "caught up"/resurrection event of 1 Thess.4 will occur on the "day of the Lord", not before. That means the last day of this world. Remember Rev.16:15 where Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and that Paul and Peter both declared the "day of the Lord" happening "as a thief in the night". That idea Paul said about the wicked and deceived saying, "Peace and safety" and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them, is about the "day of the Lord" happening upon them, "as a thief in the night". Those are who will be surprised. We will not be because we will be looking for that day of Christ's coming to gather us.

 

You are continuing to propagate myth.  But you cannot get away with it for many others can actually read the bible. We know the Old Testament talks about the DAY as a day of destruction, where God will destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. We also know the SIGN for the start of this DAY will be the sun turning dark and the moon appearing as blood read.  Hmmm. Those are exactly the signs that will be seen at the 6th seal! Imagine that! And that is right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." 

Make no mistake here: THE DAY - and HIS WRATH will begin at the 6th seal and both the day and His wrath will continued on for the rest of the week. Therefore it does NOT MEAN the last 24 hour day of the world. It may mean that in your imagination, but not in scripture. 

Since you really don't know WHY Paul wrote that THE DAY comes as a thief, please allow me to show you: in 1 Thes 4 & 5, Paul shows us a SUDDENLY coming, triggered by JESUS coming FOR  His saints.  He comes, the trump sounds, and the dead in Christ rise. 

One instant later those who are alive in Christ rise.  But when the dead in Christ rise, that rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. (Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened") That earthquake will start be a warning or a sign for the start of the DAY. If you read Isaiah 2, he writes of a great earthquake tied to THE DAY. It is almost like John copied from Isaiah at the 6th seal. Therefore we have a progression:

1. Christ COMES

2. A trumpet will SOUND

3. the dead in Christ will rise - starting a worldwide earthquake

4. Those alive and in Christ are changed and rise

5. Worldwide earthquake becomes Paul's Sudden destruction.

6. Signs in the SUN and MOON will appear, showing the start of THE DAY 

7. THE DAY and HIS WRATH begin.  

I don't care if someone says right then at the 7th seal, or with the first trumpet judgment. What John shows us is that the trumpet judgments are very much a part of God's wrath. 

What Paul has shown us is that HIS COMING triggers a list of events: first a trumpet blast, then the dead in Christ rising, then an earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) begins, and those alive and in Christ are caught up just as the ground begins to shake. 

Therefore, you are close, where hand granades count, and nukes, but not horseshoes. The truth is, His coming and the rapture event will TRIGGER the start of the DAY. 

Don't doubt me on this! It is exactly what Paul shows us.

Now let me lay it out for you: the moment after the dead in Christ rise, and the ground begins to shake, Paul shows us a paradigm: two groups of people with two different results:

Those living in Christ get "salvation" which means they get raptured out, and "get to live together with Him."

Those living in darkness get "sudden destruction" which will be the worldwide earthquake. 

Paul hints very strongly that this sudden destruction will be the start of the DAY and tells us straight out that it is the start of HIS WRATH.  Make no mistake here! His wrath will be in the earthquake, but the church will be saved from His wrath - by way of rapture. God WILL NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath!

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

In 1Thessalonians5, they will not escape -- the earthquake not mentioned in the text.. or the Day of the Lord which is in the text?

For them who do escape - looking at Luke 21:34-36,  "escape all these things" do you think Jesus is talking about escaping a specific earthquake - or all the things that take place during the Day of the Lord beginning years?

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are right, Paul does not mention an earthquake - only sudden destruction. But putting verses together I am convinced Paul's sudden destruction will be the very earthquake shown at the 6th seal.  He is of course talking about "all these things;" but that will include the earthquake at the rapture.  Paul DOES mention the Day of the Lord, just three verses after 4:17 - the classic rapture verse. He is hinting strongly that the rapture event will trigger the start of the DAY.

[douggg]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are right, Paul does not mention an earthquake - only sudden destruction. But putting verses together I am convinced Paul's sudden destruction will be the very earthquake shown at the 6th seal.  He is of course talking about "all these things;" but that will include the earthquake at the rapture.  Paul DOES mention the Day of the Lord, just three verses after 4:17 - the classic rapture verse. He is hinting strongly that the rapture event will trigger the start of the DAY.

I think, when considering both 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2:4, that the Day of the Lord is triggered by the Antichrist, perceived messiah at the time, totally unexpected,  going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

And the resurrection/rapture taking place either before then or perhaps at that exact moment.    If before, we don't how far before.  Could be today.

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Personally, I would relate the timing of the sixth seal with Revelation 16:15, but near the very end of the 7 years.   

With enough time given for the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus (Psalms2), and his army of saints and angels they will see in the third heaven.

 

 

Psalms 2

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

 

Revelation 19

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg