The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

2 Thess 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

Also

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Believing a lie is the opposite of Truth!  Just the same the gathering to Christ does not happen until the departure and then the man of sin is revealed.  Are you saying there are two gatherings in 2 Thes 2?  One for the Rapture and then the man of sin is revealed and then a 2nd gathering for everyone else?  That would not make sense.  Paul tells us what he was talking about just a couple of sentences later in 2 Thes 2:5-12.

1. The man of sin is revealed.

2. They depart from truth and believe a lie.  <-  Same as Isaiah 66. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 4  is the Thesis Statement.  Then Thessalonians 2:5-12 is the Topic.

Again you CONFLATE the Scriptures which shoes a lack of maturity by Conflating/mixing.confusing passages. You have to root these truths out. There is no FAITH being spoken of, those people at the end of the chapter never come unto Faith. You can't DEPART what you never come unto. I will place the Holman here, if you can't get it, you are own your own, I am fixed via this truth, its not debatable.

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [Departure of THE CHURCH comes First] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way(CHURCH), 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish (THEY are not the Church, THEY are those who are IN THE DARK) because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be SAVED. (NOT CHRISTIANS !! NOT CHRISTIANS) 11 For this reason God sends them(NOT CHRISTIANS but those of the DARK)/Satan) a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness. (These have NOTHING to do with Christ, these were NEVER SAVED thus that can not FALL AWAY or DEPART fro the Faith, thus the ABOVE DEPARTURE is about the Church just like I stated !! It can be noting else, you are CONFLATING two different things, those of the LIGHT and of Christ and THOSE of the DARK and of Satan.)

Stand Firm
13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.

16 May our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal encouragement and good hope by grace, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good work and word.

Again, NOWHERE is anyone stated to be DEPARTING THE FAITH !! We have those Thessalonians that Paul is telling , HEY, Fear not, you will not go through the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath, I have already told you that before that happens the Church DEPARTS, and then the Man of Sin shows up and THEN Gods Wrath Begins !! Both things have to happen before the Day of the Lord can come upon the world. Don't you remember? Thus you know what RESTRAINS HIM............The Church Departs and the Anti-Christ COMES FORTH so what is it that RESTRAINS HIM?  Ahhhhh, the Holy Spirit working through the Church stops him from coming forth because the gates of hell CAN NOT PREVAIL against the Church ad Jesus CAN NOT LIE !!

You somehow CONFLATED Christians and NO Christians, then said SEE, they depart from the Faith. People who are not of Christ Jesus can not DEPART from the Faith. Its an EAST READ man. Its not that difficult, what is hard to overcome is MEN'S TRADITIONS. 

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So the Church can't depart until the Church departs,does that make sense to you?

Read my post ABOVE...I have seen this till I am sick of seeing it, and the shame is it doesn't even make sense. You got it from some man who passed it from someone else etc etc. and it has never been a coherent thought to me. 

The Church MUST DEPART before the Man of Sin comes forth AND the Man of sin must come forth BEFORE the Day of the Lord comes forth. 

Where WHOEVER it was that came up with that line got it only shows his confusion, and I have heard it for at least 10 years and it is still an incoherent statement. 

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Just to add to your thought,only those who call themselves Christians can be deceived,as the rest of the world already are.

Read my ABOVE POST and it CLEAR its not Christians being DECEIVED. It people who were NEVER SAVED !!

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

On 7/5/2018 at 1:06 AM, Revelation Man said:

That is NOT THE RAPTURE, that happens during the 70th Week. 

This is where people have a hard time interpreting Rev 12:1-5, is right here.

The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:9 is "epairó", and the word in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 is "harpazo". These words have two different meanings in context, a lifting up in victory vs being snatched away through a rescue. Jesus didn't need to be snatched away because He already defeated the devil. 

If these passages occurred 2,000 years ago and is only about Jesus then why didn't John use the word "huios" in all three circumstances below. I believe John is describing the child being born as the church (the body of Christ). 

Even Paul said he felt abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8 because he hadn't received his resurrected body yet, and as we can see in Rev 2:26-27, Rev 12:5 the church is being mentioned here as ruling with Christ with an iron scepter.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon) the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son (huios), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon) was snatched up to God and to his throne.

I don't have a hard time at all, I was calling that September prediction a FAKE PREDICTION, a long time ago. The Church is already Raptured by the time the Woman (Israel) is chased into the Wilderness. Rev. 12:1-5 is just a RETELLING of the Story of Christ, the Dragon trying to kill him via King Herod, and Jesus being birth by Israel (Woman). The Prophesy is in verse 6-18. Rev. 12:1-5 has nothing to do with a Rapture, that is just what I call TWISTED SCRIPTURES. 

I NEVER look to Astrology, and that is what those looking at this "SIGN IN HEAVEN" did, and that is of Satan, I am sorry.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

What makes you believe the Day of the Lord begins at the first seal?

As the metaphorical Elijah, John called people to repentance and a life of obedience, preparing the people of his generation for the coming of Jesus Christ, the One who had come “to seek and to save what was lost” (Luke 19:10) and to establish the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18)... https://www.gotquestions.org/Elijah-end-times.html

Verse 5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:[15]
"I send you Elijah" — as a means towards your "remembering the law" (Malachi 4:4).[11]
"the prophet": emphatical; not "the Tishbite" as the Septuagint version wrongly inserts instead of prophet;[13] not Elijah in person, who lived in the times of Ahab;[13] for it is in his official, not his personal capacity, that his coming is here predicted.[11]
"The great and dreadful day": The day of final judgment. No other crisis could be named in such terms (see Joel 2:31, whence the words are taken).[9] The Jews interpret that as "before the coming of Christ the son of David".[16] The Talmud interprets (s) this of the sorrows of the Messiah, or which shall be in the days of the Messiah.[17][13]

Verse 6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers,
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.[18]
"Lest I come and smite the earth with a curse": that is, with an utter destruction, from which there should be no redemption. In the end, God will so smite the earth, and all, not converted to Him. The prayer and zeal of Elijah will gain a reprieve, in which God will spare the world for the gathering of His own elect, the full conversion of the Jews, which shall fulfill the Apostle's words Romans 11:26, "So shall all Israel be saved."[8]
After the glad tidings, Malachi, and the Old Testament in him, ends with words of awe, telling us of the consequence of the final hardening of the heart; the eternal severance, when the unending end of the everlasting Gospel itself shall be accomplished, and its last grain shall be gathered into the garner of the Lord.[8]

I don't look for "OPINIONS" that make my points seem right, I seek the truth at all times, that is my life. Jesus stated that Elijah would come and RESTORE ALL THINGS FIRST !! 

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

This doesn't mean John was Elijah, this means the Holy Spirit did the EXACT SAME WORK via John that he is going to do via Elijah at the END TIMES, but the people would not accept that the Kingdom of God was at hand or in their midst. The people even chose Barabbas over Jesus, the Pharisees only saw the Law. The Romans thought it was trivial trivialities, just an argument between the Jews. 

Jesus was just saying, HEY.......John did the exact same thing Elijah is going to do, but the call unto repentance BY ISRAEL was rejected. Gabriel told John's father that John was not Elijah, but was coming in the POWER OF Elijah. Jesus is only telling everyone, they were both ONLY FLESH MEN, they both CALLED Israel unto Repentance via the Holy Spirit, BUT.........The Jews during Johns time rejected the Message, and the Jews during the END TIMES are going to accept the Message of Jesus Christ Crucified !!

The Two-witnesses do what Jesus said, they RESTORE ALL THINGS.........But when? Malachi 4:5-6 tells is BEFORE the great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. 

The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath. That starts with the FIRST SEAL, and the men of earth says in Rev. 6 that its the LAMBS WRATH !! God doesn't start things in the middle, if ONE SEAL is Gods Wrath ALL SEALS are Gods Wrath. God/Jesus opens the Seal to RELEASE Gods Wrath. The Seals bring fort all the Trumpets and Vials also. The Church Departs, there is 3.5 years of FAKE PEACE, then Jesus opens the First Seal and the terrors start. The Anti-Christ KILLS from 1.5 to 2 Billion people. God/Jesus ALLOWS IT............Its Gods Wrath !! 

The Jews couldn't even see Jesus as their Messiah, I have learned not to listen to their thoughts that deeply, by the time they figure out Jesus is the Messiah I will be in Heaven. I mean the Scriptures matter but not their modern understandings. 

Jesus said ELIJAH WILL COME AND RESTORE ALL THINGS !! That is good enough for me.

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

What are your thoughts on episunagógé in 2 Thess 2:1, Heb 10:25 vs episunagó in Matt 24:31, is it same event?

Quote

I only do a deep dive on word meanings when things are "OPAQUE" so to speak, those verses are obvious to me.

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

If Israel's sins are atoned for prior to the 70th week, then what is the Day of Atonement for at Christ 2nd coming?

Luke 21:23-24 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Again, I never said that, and that is twice you reference me as saying that. Israel REPENT BEFORE the Day of the Lord which starts HALF WAY through the 70th Week !! Or 1260 days into the 79th Week or in the Middle of the Week. 

Luke 21:23-24 is not the Second Coming, its the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem at the MID WAY POINT or at the 1260 Event or its Luke speaking of 70 AD and conflating it wit the Second Coming. This is why we have FOUR GOSPEL TESTIMONIES and these are actually MEN'S TESTIMONIES, remember Jesus stated if he testified of himself his testimony would be no good, thus the Four Gospels were REALLY WRITTEN BY MEN, they quoted Jesus, but we get four gospels for a reason. 

The Fullness of the Gentiles as told by Paul, who was taken to the 3rd Heaven says that Israel will be BLINDED until he Fullness of the Gentles be come in. Its OBVIOUS TO ME, that the Rapture is when the Fullness of the Gentiles is come in. If you read the four Gospels its from four different perspectives, on purpose. I wouldn't worry to much about all of them matching up, thy don't for a reason. Its meant as REAL MEN'S Witness unto the Sacrifice Jesus Christ.

 

[n2thelight]

56 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church MUST DEPART before the Man of Sin comes forth AND the Man of sin must come forth BEFORE the Day of the Lord comes forth. 

That's not what scripture says

[n2thelight]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [Departure of THE CHURCH comes First] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

Still not understanding. The Day of the Lord can't come until the Church departs,is that what you saying?

[Brother Duke]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [Departure of THE CHURCH comes First] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

 

 

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers

How can the day of the gathering to Christ come if we are waiting on the departure to Christ?  That does not make sense.  The gathering to Christ depends on two things.

1) apostasia <- Believing a lie or departing from the truth.

2) man of sin be revealed.

Both of these need to happen before we can be gathered to Christ.  Paul then goes on to explain what both of these two conditions are in detail.    No where in the 2 Thess 2 does Paul go into detail about the departure of the church.  He does go into detail about the man of sin and about everyone lacking truth.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The only other place apostasia is used is acts 21:21.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Here it is translated as forsake but it could also be to not believe Moses.  If apostasia meant depart here it would make no sense.  Would they depart Moses or not believe Moses?

Edited July 6, 2018 by Brother Duke
typo

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

That's not what scripture says

Its exactly what the scriptures say, you just don't understand it or its conflated in your mind because of preconceived notions or its just not registering. 

 

6 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Still not understanding. The Day of the Lord can't come until the Church departs,is that what you saying?

Paul said it, not me.....The Thessalonians feared they were in the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) and Paul simply says, do not FEAT THAT, it can not happen (Gods Judgment/WRATH) until the Departure [of the Church].......Paul says in verse 5 he had already told them BEFORE.....thus he just says DEPARTURE, of what is known to be the body of Christ, PLUS he spoke of the Gathering together unto Christ in the FIRST VERSE !! 

Then Paul says the DOTL (Gods Wrath) can not come until THE DEPARTURE, and THEN the Anti-Christ ALSO has to come forth [be revealed] BEFORE the DOTL (Gods Wrath) can come upon mankind. 

So its not just that the Church must depart, it is ALSO that the Anti-Christ must be REVEALED/Come forth before the EVENT that the Thessalonians were FEARING can come upon the World. So that is why Paul says FEAR NOT......So if they were going to go through this tribulation period like many of you think why would Paul say FEAR NOT? Because the second coming is supposed to be imminent. 

Paul of course told them to Fear Not because they were not going to go through the Day of the Lord, because the Church Departs the earth before the Anti-Christ comes forth, and the Anti-Christ comes forth BEFORE the Day of the Lord. So if you add up those points of emphasis, the Thessalonians could not go possibly through the DOTL. That is why the Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 just before Jesus opens the Seals and in Rev. 7 just before the Wrath of God. That is why the Church is in Heaven in Rev. 19 Marrying the Lamb, THEN RETURNING with him to destroy the Beast and his evil minions on earth.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

How can the day of the gathering to Christ come if we are waiting on the departure to Christ?  That does not make sense.  The gathering to Christ depends on two things.

1) apostasia <- Believing a lie or departing from the truth.

2) man of sin be revealed.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The word has MORPHED into apostasy as we now know it just like the word "GAY" used to mean "HAPPY" but now the world sees at as a way to describe homosexuals. But if you LOOK ABOVE you will see the root words means LEAVE......DEPART.......derived from APO meaning AWAY FROM and HISTEMI meaning a STAND or a LEAVING from a previous standing. 

The Church was ON EARTH (A STANDING) and they left that standing, we were in SIN NATURE and we put on NEW BODIES in Heaven. Of course we have changed STANDINGS !! We have DEPARTED this earth, not THE FAITH. Those below who are spoken of CLEARLY never were Christians like I pointed out last night. So they were not being spoken of as DEPARTING THE FAITH !! That is erroneous. 

The Gathering UNTO Christ is the DEPARTURE unto Christ. 

2 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Both of these need to happen before we can be gathered to Christ.  Paul then goes on to explain what both of these two conditions are in detail.    No where in the 2 Thess 2 does Paul go into detail about the departure of the church.  He does go into detail about the man of sin and about everyone lacking truth.

The "APOSTISIA" is the DEPARTURE.  Paul doesn't need to go into DETAIL, he wasn't writing a letter for me and you to read, WHICH MOST PEOPLE never take into consideration when considering these "Epistles".  Paul states he had TOLD THEM BEFORE these things in verse 5, thus he just REMINDED them of their Conversation instead of writing a LONG letter explaining it unto them again. And he does mention what is DEPARTING....The Body will be GATHERED UNTO CHRIST., that is in the very first verse !! So you have it right in front of your eyes, you just have to WAKE UP, to what Paul is referring to. He is speaking about the Church being RAPTURED to Christ Jesus. It doesn't matter who believes what, facts are facts.

 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The only other place apostasia is used is acts 21:21.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Here it is translated as forsake but it could also be to not believe Moses.  If apostasia meant depart here it would make no sense.  Would they depart Moses or not believe Moses?

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1100 years.

[Brother Duke]

55 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

I say we listen to Paul and not our own opinion.  If we cannot agree there then we will both just have to wait until the end and see what happens.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Brother Duke