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The Seventieth Seven

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44 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

After reading a lot of articles and books on this topic (the Bible reading goes without saying) there are a couple of things I've seen. No expert agrees with the other experts concerning timing.  There were at three phases of the Babylonian captivity. You tell me where to start the 70 year countdown, because I don't know. There are quite a few theories about who exactly and when exactly this decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was made. A couple of things are pretty clear to me though, the restoration of Jerusalem in Nehemiah is not the same thing as the restoration of the temple in Ezra.

I'm fairly certain that there were a few guys called Darius the Mede. He had a son and a grandson. Sometimes these names are more like titles than names.  I don't think there is such a person as Darius the Persian.

...

*[[Neh 12:22]] KJV* The Levites in the days of Eliashib, Joiada, and Johanan, and Jaddua, were recorded chief of the fathers: also the priests, to the reign of Darius the Persian.

As much as people are fond of sir Anderson,  I think it has only served to confuse the issue of the decree to rebuild.   I totally reject his theory for two reasons,  but the first one is sufficient reason alone.  There is but one person named Ezra and one Nehemiah in those so named books,  and that they were contemporaries of each other.   Pre-20th century Judaism believed they were too.   But Anderson's writing has changed the mindset of all interested parties. 

He is undoubtedly wrong because of his assumed time for the Passover to have taken place.   There are no constraints,  such as are believed to be true,  on the "timing of Passover" within the scriptures,  only constraints to the barley being "Abib" or ready.   That cannot happen if the rules are applied as they are meant to be.  When the year,  aka, the beginning of months are followed.  The Beginning of months,  determines when the barley will be ripe,  rather than the ripeness of the barley determining when the year begins.   I.e., it is the first full month AFTER the vernal equinox.   Years are determined by the  timing of the equinox.  The equinox is determined by the heavens.   Months are determined by the sighting of the new moon.   Anderson has the  Passover new moon [of Artaxerxes],  happening before the vernal equinox of that year.   A lot more could be said about the reigns of Persian kings and their dating,  but a simple understanding of the contemporary nature of Ezra and Nehemiah puts that to rest.   It does not necessarily solve the Persian riddle of their kings,  but it debunks any truths that have been deduced.   

Blessings

The PuP 

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After reading all the work you have done on this subject, I might not understand your comment on the scripture on the timing of the Passover. It is always the 14th day of the first month, unless you were defiled by reason of war, then you could take it on the 14th day of the second month. Did I miss your point there?

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15 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

After reading all the work you have done on this subject, I might not understand your comment on the scripture on the timing of the Passover. It is always the 14th day of the first month, unless you were defiled by reason of war, then you could take it on the 14th day of the second month. Did I miss your point there?

 Yes.   I was not talking about Passover in the 2nd month,  Pesach Sheni,  which means little Passover.   Modern Judaism has adopted the Hillel calendar for their years.   It is a mathematical formula that determined when their years begin.   The idea of the barley being "abib", or ripe,  is of secondary importance.   The first month was originally called Abib or Aviv.  Karaite Jews still use the ripeness of the barley to determine when the "first" month has arrived.   But that method also allows for the year to begin before the spring equinox on March 20/21.  God instituted the lights in the heavens to be: 

*[[Gen 1:14]] KJV* And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Signs, seasons, days,  and years.   As you probably know,  the lunar cycle is about 29.5 days.   And 12 lunar months would equal 354 days.   A Jewish month always begins with the new moon.   The inequity of a solar year versus a lunar year means that some lunar years will have an extra 13th month,  and that some lunar years would have 383.5 (354 + 29.5) days.   In a nutshell,  Abib was ordained by God to always be the 1st month of the year.   When the vernal/ spring equinox is used to determine the 1st month rather than when the barley is "ripe", the first month will always coincide with ripe barley rather than the year being determined by such.   

To restate things,  the first month (the sighting of the new moon)  would only begin after the vernal equinox.   Modern Judaism and sir Robert Anderson both allowed for the year to begin before the equinox.   If I am remembering right,  he determined that in the year of Artaxerxes longimanus ' decree,  that the year began around the 13th or 14th of March.   Actual reckoning would then have the first month of Abib to begin 1 month later, about April 13.  The 360 day prophetic calendar used to arrive at the 173,880 days in 483 years is a bogus apparition.  

Blessings

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers
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10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Yes.   I was not talking about Passover in the 2nd month,  Pesach Sheni,  which means little Passover.   Modern Judaism has adopted the Hillel calendar for their years.   It is a mathematical formula that determined when their years begin.   The idea of the barley being "abib", or ripe,  is of secondary importance.   The first month was originally called Abib or Aviv.  Karaite Jews still use the ripeness of the barley to determine when the "first" month has arrived.   But that method also allows for the year to begin before the spring equinox on March 20/21.  God instituted the lights in the heavens to be: 

*[[Gen 1:14]] KJV* And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Signs, seasons, days,  and years.   As you probably know,  the lunar cycle is about 29.5 days.   And 12 lunar months would equal 354 days.   A Jewish month always begins with the new moon.   The inequity of a solar year versus a lunar year means that some lunar years will have an extra 13th month,  and that some lunar years would have 383.5 (354 + 29.5) days.   In a nutshell,  Abib was ordained by God to always be the 1st month of the year.   When the vernal/ spring equinox is used to determine the 1st month rather than when the barley is "ripe", the first month will always coincide with ripe barley rather than the year being determined by such.   

To restate things,  the first month (the sighting of the new moon)  would only begin after the vernal equinox.   Modern Judaism and sir Robert Anderson both allowed for the year to begin before the equinox.   If I am remembering right,  he determined that in the year of Artaxerxes longimanus ' decree,  that the year began around the 13th or 14th of March.   Actual reckoning would then have the first month of Abib to begin 1 month later, about April 13.  The 360 day prophetic calendar used to arrive at the 173,880 days in 483 years is a bogus apparition.  

Blessings

The PuP 

Thanks for taking the time. Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I knew that those who use lunar based calendars had to add an extra month to their year every so often to make up for the difference of 365.25 and 360, but I never even thought about how they tried to figure out when the first month of the year began. That was very helpful.

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On 6/29/2018 at 8:29 PM, JoeChan82 said:

Thanks for taking the time. Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I knew that those who use lunar based calendars had to add an extra month to their year every so often to make up for the difference of 365.25 and 360, but I never even thought about how they tried to figure out when the first month of the year began. That was very helpful.

 Your welcome.   Here are some other things to consider. 

1. 490 years is a very significant number for Israel.   From the beginning of the reign of king Saul until the destruction by the Babylonians was exactly 490 years (not necessarily to the day).  

A.  Saul -40 yrs , Acts 13:21

B. David - 40 years, 2 Sam5:4

C.Solomon - 20 years spent working on the temple grounds, 1 KINGS 6:1;9:10.  God did not allow Solomon to build the temple until David died,  which was the 4th year of Solomon's reign,  1 KINGS 6:1.

D. Judgment was pronounced upon Israel for the sin of Solomon to build pagan temples to Chemosh,etc. during his 20 year that took place: 390 years later; 1 KINGS 11:7-11; Eze 4; 390 years

In summary,  the kingdom lasted 490 years,  116 years united,  374 years divided.   

2.  The punishment: Jerusalem was to be desolate for 70 years of Sabbaths that she failed to keep:

*[[2Ch 36:20]] KJV* And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

*[[2Ch 36:21]] KJV* To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

The 70 years lasted FROM THE DESTRUCTION [those who escaped from the sword] of Jerusalem,  UNTIL the kingdom of Persia.   The 70 years began at the end of the 490 years of the kingdom of Israel.   The judgment upon Jerusalem was for 70 years.   Not more.  Not less.   70 years after its destruction in 586 B.C. takes us to the 6th year of Darius when thee temple was completed in 516 B.C.. 

3.  To say that the decree to rebuild Jerusalem did not take place until sometime around the middle of the 5th century B.C. [Longimanus' "presumed" decree did not take place until 445 B.C.]  is to say that the judgment upon Jerusalem was more than 70 years (~141 years).  The whole matter can be settled by simply understanding that Artaxerxes of Ezra 7, was not Longimanus,  but was merely the title (which is what Artaxerxes really means) given to Darius the Persian.   The understanding them being:  the temple was completed in the 12th month of Adar in the 6th year of Darius,  and Ezra leaves for Babylon in the 1st month of the 7th year of his reign, less than a month later.   When you understand that Ezra was the brother of the [high priest] Jeshua's father,  Jehozadak,  you know this has to be true of when Ezra left for Babylon.   

*[[Ezr 7:1]] KJV* Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,

Compare with 1Chr 6:

*[[1Ch 6:14]] KJV* And Azariah begat Seraiah, and Seraiah begat Jehozadak,

*[[1Ch 6:15]] KJV* And Jehozadak went into captivity, when the LORD carried away Judah and Jerusalem by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

AND

*[[Hag 1:1]] KJV* In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,

A lot more could be said to prove the chronological bond between Ezra and Nehemiah,  but i will save that for any questions that might arise.   

490 years is An important number concerning the kingdom of Israel.   I personally believe that the 1000 years of Rev.  20 is actually only 980 years [twice that of 490] with Jesus already having served the first 20 years from the time he was left in Jerusalem when he was 12 years old,  when he said,  "do you not know that I must be about my FATHERS business", until he was crucified in Jerusalem, some 20 years later!  

If the 70 week [490 year prophecy]  of Daniel 9, began with the rebuilding of the temple in 516, and ended 69 weeks later at his crucifixion,[or maybe his birth???]  and resumes in the very near future, do you realize that Israel's subjugation unto a king [980 years under Jesus's rule]  might actually equal 7 judgmental TIMES of 490 years?   

Blessings my friend, 

The PuP 

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Good stuff, Da Puppers. Even though I had never considered the length of the millennial reign to be anything other than 1,000 years, I think your idea of 490+490= 980+20=1,000 years of Christ's earthly ministry has some real merit. Christ only read the first part of Isaiah 61:1-3 and then closed the book. Surely all of Isaiah 61 is Messianic, but vs 3 is future. Why not include those 20 years in the Messiah's reign?

Luke 4:17-20 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

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On 6/27/2018 at 3:25 AM, Diaste said:

If I understand, you're saying it's all been fulfilled? Daniel 9:24-27, I mean. I guess you mean Daniel 8 has been fulfilled as well.

Yes. Most people have never made a detailed study of the history of this era, unfortunately, and so presume everything written will take place in the Latter Days. But Greek history, combined with the record of the Books of Maccabees, show that the events of Daniel 8 were fulfilled historically. As has been all of Daniel 11 up to at least verse 35, and all of Daniel 9. As I noted in my post, the apostasian spoken of in Maccabees is the translation of the Hebrew word pesha found in Daniel 8:12, 13, and 23, and Daniel 9:24. It was the same apostasy, the one which corrupted the Levitical priesthood, eventually leading to the end of the Jewish Era.

In the same manner, the "apostasia" of 2 Thes. 2 is that which has corrupted the Christian priesthood, and is leading to the end of the Christian Era.  A read of my blog post The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy explains the case in more detail.

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On 6/27/2018 at 4:39 AM, Steve Conley said:

To my understanding, only one of these conditions [of Daniel 9:24] has been accomplished to date. 

Yup, it all depends on how one reads it. What one looks for is generally what one will find. If you think the passage is historical, there is plenty of evidence to back up that case. If you think it is prophetic, you can find evidence for that belief also.

 

So here are my bottom line take-aways from this subject:

1) Daniel 9:24-27 provides an accurate summary of events in Judea from the First Coming of the Messiah up to the destruction of the Temple. It doesn’t mention at all

– any abomination of desolation of the Holy Place;

– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;

– the Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was;

– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;

– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;

– the coming prince’s demise;

– or the raising of the dead.

These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why not here? In my opinion, because this is not a prophecy for the end of Church Age, but rather for the end of the Jewish Age.

2) There is no solid evidence that proves Daniel 9:24-27 prophesies anything about the End Times. However, “lack of evidence for is not the same as evidence against.” Therefore, this leaves us with no honest alternative other than to view verse 27’s interpretation as being purely presumption/conjecture either way – historical or future.

This means that no honest interpreter of biblical eschatology should ever use verse 27 as evidence for their beliefs about the End Times, because conjecture and presumption are never evidence. They only pollute otherwise sound arguments.

3) According to my position of Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath, 6th Seal Rapture, whether Daniel 9:27 is historical or End Times is irrelevant. I certainly do not expect to see that passage take place before the Trib, but if events should happen to take that course, then those events will become quickly recognizable.

 

Edited by WilliamL

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On 6/28/2018 at 11:37 AM, Da Puppers said:

I continue to ponder the timing of Daniel 9.  (My question concerns whether Darius the Mede and Darius the Persian are two individual or are they the same?)

Here is my conundrum.   When did the 70 years captivity to Babylon begin?  If it refers to the final destruction of Jerusalem around 586 BC when Zedekiah was king or does it refer to an earlier captivity,  either 11 or 19 years earlier [in 605 or 597]?

Darius the Mede was the ally of Cyrus in the coalition of Persians and Medes that conquered Babylon in October 538 B.C. He was made regent of Babylon for a fairly short period by Cyrus, who had ruled over both peoples since 550 B.C.

When did the 70 years begin? It was a dual prophecy.

The rulership part began in 606 B.C. with the capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, beginning the Jewish vassalage to the Babylonians. It ended in 537 B.C. with the command of Cyrus to the Jews to return to Jerusalem under the governorship of Zerubbabel. 70 prophetic/360-day years equals almost precisely 69 solar years.

The priestly part began in 588 with the destruction of the Temple and the exile of the remaining priests to Babylon. It ended in 519 B.C. with the prophesying of Haggai and Zechariah to Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua to finish rebuilding the Temple, work on which had been stopped for many years.

7 Times = 2520 360 day years from 606 B.C. comes to 1878/79 A.D., the beginning period of the Jewish Aliyahs to Israel: that is, 7 Times after the beginning of the Jewish dispersion, the Jewish regathering began.

7 Times = 2520 360 day years from 588 B.C. comes to 1897 A.D., when the First Zionist Congress convened in Basel, Switzerland; that is, 7 Times after the fall of the Jewish Kingdom, a new Jewish governing body was established.

7 Times = 2520 360 day years from 538/7 B.C. comes to 1947/8 A.D. The explanation is pretty obvious.

7 Times = 2520 360 day years from 519/8 B.C. comes to 1967 A.D., when the Temple Mount and East Jerusalem were reconquered by the Jews.

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13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes. Most people have never made a detailed study of the history of this era, unfortunately, and so presume everything written will take place in the Latter Days. But Greek history, combined with the record of the Books of Maccabees, show that the events of Daniel 8 were fulfilled historically. As has been all of Daniel 11 up to at least verse 35, and all of Daniel 9. As I noted in my post, the apostasian spoken of in Maccabees is the translation of the Hebrew word pesha found in Daniel 8:12, 13, and 23, and Daniel 9:24. It was the same apostasy, the one which corrupted the Levitical priesthood, eventually leading to the end of the Jewish Era.

In the same manner, the "apostasia" of 2 Thes. 2 is that which has corrupted the Christian priesthood, and is leading to the end of the Christian Era.  A read of my blog post The Son of Perdition Is a Patsy explains the case in more detail.

I guess it's obvious that some of it has been fulfilled, Dan 8 for one. It always looked to me like Dan 9-12 is the same prophecy, well, interwoven and connected to the end of the age at least. I have not looked into the history of that era too much. What I did find was some disagreement among dates and times; this far removed from antiquity much is lost and it's more opinion in historical circles than hard facts in some cases. In the end I give historians their due, but that's it.

It's plain much in prophecy is to be fulfilled. "The generation that sees all these things will not pass away till it's all fulfilled." this is in reference to the events in Matt 24. We have not seen the Lord return yet so Matt 24 is yet future except for the destruction of the Temple which was prophesied by Jesus before Jesus was asked, "What is the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Everything in Matt 24 after this is the end of the age and the events before and after the sign of His coming and His appearance in the clouds of heaven.

So when Jesus says, " “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—" and this immediately precedes GT, which immediately precedes the Sign of His coming, then a similar event in Daniel has to be the one Jesus is referencing. 

So why not Dan 9:27? And Dan 12:11?  

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